'Scuse Me? You Talkin' to Me?

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2006 11:57 AM EDT in News

Anyone knows what this is supposed to mean...

The best part of the post-season thus far was watching Justin Morneau and the Twins get swept. I've never hated the Twins; never had any reason to do so. I'm slowly coming around though.

There has been a culture brewing for some time up there in the Land of Frozen Lakes, a culture of inferiority that permeates through the greater Minneapolis media that has taken hold with the Twins and their fans alike.

My general apathy towards the Twins started to change late last season when Santana mysteriously came up with a blister and was pushed back so that he would face the Sox twice in September. Back then the Twins were in denial mode; they wouldn't admit that they wanted anyone but the White Sox in the playoffs. Mr. Morneau didn't feel the need to be so sly this year. He came right out and said it.

The Sox will never harbor the malevolence that the Twins seem to breed in their farm system and clubhouse, but they will always be shooting for more than 'anybody but the Twins.' That's the type of attitude that has you three-and-out in the playoffs.

I'm glad I'm a fan of the team that shoots for the big prize.

...because it sounds like a bunch of crap. It's a section of a post from South Side Sox.

Mostly I'm not sure where to start, because over the last two seasons I haven't had any particular reason to dislike Chicago, other than my love-hate relationship with A.J. Pierzynski. They're a good team, and for better or for worse at least I get a laugh out of Ozzie Guillen on a weekly basis.

What's the point of bringing up the "mysterious" Santana blister? Chicago still kicked our asses in 2005, so harboring some kind of resentment for an act which may or may not have been on purpose but ultimately made no difference...well, it seems a little petty.

And "...shoots for the big prize"? Really? Passing up on the easy shot, what is this supposed to mean? Honestly, I have no idea, because it certainly appears that the Twins have built themselves into a serious contender who can make a couple of legitimate runs over the next couple of years. I'm sure there's a double entendre in there, but it misses its mark pretty wide.

One more thing...does anyone have a clue as to what this "culture" we're building is? Aside from winning and grooming talented young pitching?

Yikes.

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I think

I think its funny that we're being blamed for the intensifying rivalry between the Sox and Twins. The sox are the ones that started it by all their players down talking us every year even after we won the divisions. Getting guys like Aj didn't make it any better.

I don't even know what a lot of this means.

And so what if we held Santana to start against the Sox? What is wrong with wanting to matchup your best pitcher against the best competition, which the sox clearly were in 2005?

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 11, 2006 12:01 PM EDT reply actions

Let's keep score

In terms of the bulletin board fodder, it's something like White Sox 12, Twins 1. Remember when Beuhrle said: "I don't care if the Twins are in the playoffs and we're staying home, we're still the better team. I hope they go three and out." That kind of stuff was echoed a dozen times by guys like Thomas, Konerko, and Crede. We didn't make a big deal about it.

They're attitude has changed since Ozzie took over (Pierzinski bat flips notwithstanding), but for years under Manuel, they filled our bulletin boards with sour grapes and sissy swagger. Manuel himself was quoted echoing Beurle's comments. Reisdorf even got into the act a couple of times. It wasn't until Ozzie took over and reminded them that they had lost three consecutive division titles to the Twins that they shut up.

This blogger apparently has a short memory.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 11, 2006 12:21 PM EDT reply actions

Seriously...

who drives this rivalry? I'd have to say it's the disrespect of the White Sox. They are the Yankees of our division, thinking because they're in the big market that they can push everyone else around. This is constantly echoed by Hawk on WGN as well. Even though he tends to praise the Twins a bit, he also slyly degrades them by constantly commenting that the Twins are "playing above their heads" or that the Sox are the better team on paper, have far superior talent, etc., but just don't get it done. There's almost never any acknowledgment of the TWINS talent.

Personally, they can think all they want. So they won our division once. Big deal. We're the ones in the driver seat of this matchup for the next 5-10 years. Any non-delusional White Sox fan will admit that.

by djskilbr on Oct 11, 2006 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions

ten years from now?

How you figure that? I agree about the constant patronizing of our current talent, but all I can say about either team ten years from now is that the Sox will almost certainly have the bigger payroll. Why are the Twins in the driver seat?

by by jiminy on Oct 12, 2006 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Differentiation

I would say the Twins' approach gives the organization a great opportunity for the long-term future. The Twins spend more resources on scouting and developing than any other organization. They're near the bottom in spending for other team's cast-offs. The White Sox have moved more in the direction of spending less on scouting and more on signing veterans (in terms of percentages anyway). The Yankess are a paradigm case of why this approach doesn't work. To the extent that the White Sox are emulating the Yankees, you will see inconsistent success. To the extent that they emulate the Twins or A's, you would expect longer term consistent success. That's my perspective anyway.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2006 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions

exactly my point...

thanks for elaborating cmath.

the twins are far better built for LONG term success.

by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2006 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions

Re: Short memory

But the blogger is The Cheat...or me, for the Sox site. I've read his stuff often and generally speaking he writes very well. There's never been anything, that I can recall, where something had been said without backup or for no reason.

For that reason, I'm not asking for bulletin board fodder from our side, I'm making an attempt to decipher what he said and why. If there's a reason for it, a real one beyond a misguided dislike for the Twins, I want to know what it is.

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2006 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions

Apparently

He took offnse at Morneau's comments a couple of weeks before the end of the season, when he said he hoped the Twins would make the playoffs, and that it would be especially satisfying if it was at the expense of the White Sox.

I know our players are not developed to play like Pierzinski. He was actually sent down in 2000 despite being the best catcher in camp because TK didn't like his "big shooter" antics. Pierzinski is kind of the anti-Twin. And Morneau's comments are the exception to the rule of polite, respectfull guys who go out and give an honest day's effort.

I think The Cheat is just wrong. If you want a pulse of how people around basebal feel towards the Twins, check out the the Baseball Analysts entry for October 9 (scrol down to read it). It's a respected francise in part because the Twins play hard and have smallish egos by basebll standards. The few guys who have come through here that developed big jerky egoes (e.g. Knoblauch, Pierzinski) got shipped out.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 11, 2006 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions

That's

a great article.

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2006 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions

I can see...

...why he might feel that way about Santana. I remember around that time complaining a lot about Santana's command, and the Twins were being very secretive about the whole thing--the first time the problem ever came out, to my knowledge, was in a Tigers broadcast. The Twins' folks didn't seem to want to acknowledge any problem.

However, at the same time I was complaining about his command, Gleeman was talking about how people should stop worrying because Santana was still putting up good, if un-Santana-like numbers. So from an outsider's perspective, I think it'd be pretty easy to consider the blister problem mysterious and potentially part of a weird anti-Sox campaign by the management.

Of course, at the time we changed our rotation the way we did, we basically shifted a Santana start against a non-contender to a Santana start against a contender. It seems a little paranoid to assume that Twins' management did that simply because the contender was the White Sox and not, say, the Tigers.

The Cheat does good work over there, though, so hopefully the whole thing stays pretty civil. There's already way more than enough ridiculous crap that goes on between White Sox and Twins fans writing about baseball.

by ubelmann on Oct 11, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

SSS

Nice comment over at South Side Sox.

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2006 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions

Hey Jealousy!

The title to that Minneapolis Band's(?) song sums up all of that White Sox nonsense.

by montanatwinsfan on Oct 11, 2006 2:04 PM EDT reply actions

Which entry was it?

I'm all fired up and wanna add my two cents on South Side Sox, but can't find it. If anyone knows the title of the particular entry, please let me know.

And in regards to their post.... So???? Who gives a shit if Morneau doesn't like the White Sox. He shouldn't. Baseball isn't meant to be played like gentlemen. The Twins play the game the right way.... hard, and as far as I'm concerned, youre not a real Minnesota Twin unless you personnally want to beat the Bitch Sox.

by SDTwinsFan on Oct 11, 2006 3:26 PM EDT reply actions

Second Season, Round 2 Day 1

Much like soccer and rugby in the UK...

Baseball is a hooligan's game for gentlemen; football is a gentlemen's game for hooligans.

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2006 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions

he is right

about the big prize thing. The twins only seemed to want the playoffs, and that was it. 2 celebrations in a week, a big pep rally, they were acting as if they won the world series. They BETTER realize that there is a bigger prize at hand. Don't choke next year

by notaterrorist123 on Oct 12, 2006 6:57 AM EDT reply actions

You can do better than that

The twins only seemed to want the playoffs

How you figure? Because they celebrated? After how the season started for the Twins, being absolutely rotten and so far out of it, any team would have celebrated in a similar fasion.

Note the Tigers celebrating winning the ALDS like they won the World Series, and it doesn't seem to be affecting their performance. But, they were celebrating because they won their first playoff series in 1200 years. Nothing wrong with that.

They BETTER realize that there is a bigger prize at hand.

Yes. You're right. They didn't know that there was a World Series. They were under the impression that the entire season and playoffs were leading to nowhere.

by Jesse on Oct 12, 2006 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions

It's true though

You were being sarcastic, but it's all true. 2 celebrations and a huge rally is too much for just going to the playoffs, and then to put together one of the most pathetic playoff showings ever, why bother getting to the playoffs? Why celebrate the division victory? It took detroit losing 4 straight for it to happen.

Next year, they need to go for the world series, and not for a playoff spot.

I hate to say it, but the white sox guy is right.

by notaterrorist123 on Oct 12, 2006 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Easy

The Twins lost the first two games by two runs or less and were in them into the ninth inning. They lost the third one by more, but were in it until a critical error in the eighth. A few breaks here and there and the series goes differently. I would not characterize that as pathetic. It wasn't good, but I can think of far worse. The Yankees this year, for example.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2006 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Sure...

While we're at it, no one should ever be happy about anything that happens until they win the last game of the World Series. All business, all the time. There shall be no smiling in the Twins' dugout or clubhouse until they win a World Series, just in case they "forget" again what the real goal is.

It is, in fact, possible to win a World Series and celebrate milestones along the way. If it wasn't possible, then I'm sure Luis Castillo and Mike Redmond would've been telling everyone to cut out the celebrations.

by ubelmann on Oct 12, 2006 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Watch a little more baseball...

And you will notice that all of the teams were celebrating their playoff victories, including the Yankees who, if I remember correctly have been there before a few times in the not so distant past.

The Sox guys comments are clearly sour grapes. And your criticism of the Twins celebrating a GREAT regular season (well a GREAT last 2/3rds or so) is silly at best. We SHOULD ALL be so thankful for a season as enjoyable, thrilling, awe/respect-inspiring (e.g. Radke) as this last season was after all I FOR ONE looked forward to tuning in my computer EVERY single night to listen to the Twins after the All Star break and I had a heck of a time tearing myself away every time my wife wanted to go out for a night or go camping.

I think all of us fans have a lot to celebrate and I for one am going to do just that, playoff losses or not!

by montanatwinsfan on Oct 12, 2006 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed...

this has easily been my most enjoyable Twins fan season to date in my lifetime. I can't ever remember being THIS enthused about the team and regularly checking in for each and every step of the action.

by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2006 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Why I root against Chicago

First I want to say that I don't hate A.J., and further, that I like Ozzie Guillen and a few of their player.

The reason I root against Chicago is that it is a big city, with serious money support, and the help of big city media. I root for midwest teams. I love rooting for Milwaukee, St Louis, the Tigers (when not facing MN). Same in other sports. The problem is that Oakland, or the Marlins are more of "midwest" teams to me than than Chicago, because they fight the same out-of-the-public eye all the time, and do it with no money.

I root against the White sox just like I root against the Yankees, Red Sox anyone from LA or D.C.

Its not anyone but the Sox. I root for anyone who is fun to root for; who brings up talent; is depending on question marks, and spends all offseason (and much of the season) thinking about how good their team could be if unproven talent lives up to hype, and how bad they could be if they never prove themselves.

by snolls on Oct 14, 2006 12:15 PM EDT reply actions

Chicago

Chicago i big city, but it isn't nearly the big market that Mew York is. They donm't spend half as much as Boston does (quite).

Really Chicago is a very midwest city. Is is like a mini-new york in some ways, only instead of everyone being callous and east coastern, everyone is just a little nicer.

Chicago might actually be my favorite city around. That's why i live here now.

But man I hate Sox.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 14, 2006 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Chicago

I love this town. It's more me than the TC are. I just bleed Twins, and I have since I was able to walk.

I admit I rooted for the Sox last year. It was high time a non-coastal team took it all, and I wished them well through the playoffs. Despite their fans being obnoxious and over-dramatic, I appreciate Sox fans. They make an attempt to know the team and baseball in general.

Cub fans are a cancer that force the time for a drive to the store or a train ride to triple. The Cubs are a social club filled with frat boys and attention-starved sorority girls trying to flirt with them. Also, the stadium blows. The views are usually obstructed by poles or overhangs, the food sucks, and it's cramped on the way in and out, no one likes paying $25 for parking either.

While I don't like the Sox, I appreciate the rivalry between the Twins and Sox. I like that the Twins come here 10 times a year. I love heckling respectfully when we win at the Cell, and I get a kick out of Sox fans heckling me while we lose. I love talking Sox/Twins with my in-laws. I like being interested in another game everyday if the Twins game is a blowout or a heartbreaker. I really love hating the Sox.

by TheMattWilke on Oct 16, 2006 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions

Wrigley

White Sox fans are the only people in the world I have met who don't like Wrigley, and most of them don't. Wrigley field is the most perfect place to watch a baseball game imagineable.

Just because I love Chicago doesn't mean I don't hate the Sox though. Just wanted to ddefend the city since I live here now and all.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 16, 2006 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions

RE:

That's cool. I stick by what I say. I tried really hard to make the Cubs my NL team. The poor experiences I've had at Wrigley for the reasons above have prevented that for me. I also think the extent by which the fans negatively treated Jacque Jones and Juan Pierre for having a poor start was out of line and racist. No one seemed to care that they were vast improvements over what they had the year before. But that's another thread.

Either way, it's good to know there's someone else in this town that checks twinkietown, gleeman, etc. What neighborhood do you live in? Next season we should work on drumming up interest in convincing a bar to be a Twins bar a night or two every week.

by TheMattWilke on Oct 16, 2006 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions

Many things

Last things first, and i doubt we'd be able to convince a bar of that. Not with the rivalry...

I'm not actually in chicago per se, but Evanston is pretty close, right? I'm at Northwesternn University, so downtown is just a short (okay, long because the EL is shockingly slow for mass transit) EL ride away.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 16, 2006 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions

You're forgetting

It's still slightly a Cubs town. I'm sure there would be plenty of Cub leaning bars that have MLB Extra Innings that would put a couple TVs of the game on for a group that came in regularly to spite of the Sox. It'd be a good selling point. If you live in Evanston, I live off the Argyle stop on the Red Line. We can keep it far north.

Just a crazy idea, that's all. I bet it's a craigslist post away from being a small craze in this town.

by TheMattWilke on Oct 17, 2006 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Ah yes...

Indeed, that would work on the north side.

Argyle is what, two, three stops from Howard?

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 17, 2006 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions

More than that

5 stops north of Addison, maybe closer to 6-8 from Howard. Our best bet might be something in Wrigleyville when the Cubs are on the road. Good ol' Sluggers still has the poorly lit batting cages and wing buckets.

We'll discuss it next Spring.

by TheMattWilke on Oct 18, 2006 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree, let's do it.

yeah.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 18, 2006 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions

Great town...

...crappy fans. The split between Sox and Cub fans is like a jihad. My cousin in law ownes a condo on Marine drive. You can see home plate of Wrigley from his balcony. But he's a Sox fan, so when I suggeted he might catch a day game with the binocculars, he laughed and said, "I'd sooner set up a Howitzer on the balcony and lob shells onto the field."

My pastor is from Chicago. His mother was a Lutheran Democrat and a Cub fan. His father was a Catholic Republican and a White Sox fan. I asked him which was a bigger issue for his parents. He said they faught over religion and politics, but they almost got divorced over baseball.

But it's tough to beat the combination of food, parks, and museums that Chicago offers. A bit crowded and noisy for my taste, but I love to visit at least once a year. I never go to ball games when I'm there because there's too much other stuff to do.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 16, 2006 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions

The story

The story about your pastor is funny. That is an odd couple demographically.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 16, 2006 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions