Don't Let Hunter Off

by SDTwinsFan on Oct 4, 2006 5:46 PM EDT Comment 33 comments

I am so sick of hearing... "Well, Torii's a gold glover. He was just out trying make a great play." Pardon my language, but thats Bull Shit. Since when does being a gold glover become a legitimate excuse to make STUPID decisions. That was not a physical error. That was Torii Hunter playing with his head up his ass. Seriously... for 10 million dollars, you'd think the guy could know the situation.

Now I'm not saying I don't appreciate his typically stellar defense, but the play he made today is inexcusable. You have to know there's two outs and the game is on the line. Keep that ball in front of you and live to play another day. Mistakes happen, and I think I'm even more frustrated by the fact that the post-game crew is giving him a pass, and pretending it didn't kill the Twins today. Just because he makes a lot of great plays doesn't entitle him to make one that basically cost the Twins the game.

And then to top it all off, he follows the mistake with maybe the worst at-bat I've seen all year. He swung at exactly ZERO strikes in what I believe was a three pitch strikeout. After flailing helplessly at a pitch a foot outside, he got just what he deserved for today's game... a resounding boo from the crowd.

I know this post has been exceptionally negative, but I am sooo frustrated right now. The Twins bats have disappeared entirely, the managing has been poor, and what the hell happened to Castillo? 3 K's looking today, a foolish caught stealing yesterday, a failure to move the runner over... what's next. This team has entirely gotten away from the game that got them this far (except for the digging themselves a massive hole part). Are we dead??? I wish with all my heart I could give a convincing "NO", but to tell the truth, I just flat out can't. We CAN still win this thing, and believe me, nobody wants to see the Twins win more than me, but unless the offense comes around fast (remember Haren's last start against the Twins) we are dead in the water. However, should the bats start getting hot... I actually like our chances, because the pitching (bullpen aside) has been great, and if we can get to game four, the chances of coming home for a game five have to look good w/ Santana throwing. But first... game three. GO RADKE!!!

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Sad

Our pitching has been just great this series. Two fantastic starts. Crain had a little hiccup yesterday, and we gave up one run today, but the bullpen isn't resppnsible for those two runs Hunter let in.

Our bullpen hasn't been great, but it has been okay, and with our great starts, we can't blame the pitching at all.

We've scored on three solo homers and on triple that should have been a flyball but Milton los tit in the lights. Then we had a groundout that score the run because the athletcs didn't care about it. Whee...

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 4, 2006 6:00 PM EDT reply actions

I have the solution

The whole team needs to smoke a giant phatty today and relax. I'm sure they can "borrow" some from Nick Swisher.

by wcooley on Oct 5, 2006 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions

Easy Big Fella

I don't believe anyone at this site is going to let him off for the error. It was pretty clearly a bad error. But get a grip on reality. EVERYONE makes errors. Hunter is no exception, this one happened to be extra egregious mostly because of the timing and the result. But an error or two doesn't a career move make. If you want to condemn him for losing game two fine (although I am more concerned about the Twins collective bats than one error)but if you are going to use that error to extrapolate about his usefullness as a whole to the organization than you're making no more sense than those people who would let him off for because of his career as a gold glover.

by montanatwinsfan on Oct 4, 2006 6:15 PM EDT reply actions

Hunter

The only problem with Hunter right now IMHO is that he is trying way too hard. He needs to relax and enjoy things. It was a bad play, but if he doesn't do it the Twins still lose 3-2.

by wcooley on Oct 4, 2006 6:44 PM EDT reply actions

Changed the whole outcome

This is just one error, but it did change the complexion of the game. Who knows what happens if the game is sti tied going into the bottom of the seventh. For one thing, Hunter doesn't press and swing at every pitch he sees. And niether do White or Bartlett. For another thing, assuming the Twins don't score beforethe tp of the ninth, maybe Gardy uses Nathan to start that inning anyway, instead of Rincon for a second inning. It's a whole different game.

This is the kind of error that gets guys run out of town by the fans. Remember Derrin Nelson? Had a great career overall here. I think he's still third all-time in yards from scrimmage for the Vikings. But he dropped an easy pass that would have tied the game in the NFC championship game, and that's all anyone remembers about him. That's the kind of error this was.

This was a little league error from the only guy on the team who's been in four playoff series before. Hunter has played like a rookie in this series, swinging at the first pitch in every at bat. Bobbling balls. And now this. Every play in the playoffs is magnified. And this was the worst play of his career. I think we have every right to be outraged.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 4, 2006 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions

You know what else changed the...

"complexion" of the game? Mauer and Rondell failing to deliver with RISP.

Torii made a BAD play. And the last thing I would want to do is take away anyone's "rights", especially the one that involves outrage. But when I look back at these two games the thing that really sticks out for me is oh-fer-two games with RISP. But you can go ahead and keep talking about Torii's play, you'll fit in well on ESPN with Byrnes and Wells rehashing it repeatedly.

by wcooley on Oct 4, 2006 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Ouch

I see you've resorted to the ultimate burn on this site...comparing someone's analysis to that of BBTN.

Anyway, I don't think anybody is necessarily saying that there weren't other factors contributing to the loss, not the least of which is the Twins' failings with RISP. However, Hunter's play was so horrendously bad that it really trumps the team's other problems. This is particularly true because the Twins were still in the game, and even had momentum, despite their lack of "clutch" hitting. I really believe that Hunter's gaffe changed the mindset of the entire team. Can you name another time in the recent past where the team looked so defeated prior to the game being over?

I really don't think the Twins are done, and I hate to blame Hunter for everything, but he produced the standout play in a crushing loss. Therefore, he deserves his share of the blame, if for nothing else than failing to realize his limitations post-injury.

by MauerPower on Oct 5, 2006 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions

No disrespect

Both Byrnes and Wells commended Hunter for his hustle and called him the best center fielder in the game. I want to have that respect for him.

But this was no ordinary bad play. This is like Kubel swining at balls over hs head with a runner on third and one out against Super Mario. This is like Rincon throwing a meatball to Ruben Sierra. This is the kind of play that will forever be burned on our brains when we think of Hunter.

But I was reminded that he had an even worse play in the 2002 ALDS that bounced off his glove and should have been a three-base error, but Tom (it's only an error if a rookie makes it) Mee gave Ray Durham an inside-the-park homer. If it wasn't for this play, we would not have been reminded of that one. The Twins came back to win that series in part because of Torii. And he has put up several good years since. So it's possible this play will wash away like the last one. But it will stick with us like a Bill Buckner grounder sticks with Red Sox fans if the Twins get swept.

That's al I'm saying. it's a shame we remember the low lights sometimes with more clarity than the highlights. This is the kind of low light that many of us will never forget.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 5, 2006 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions

Nah

This one won't stick with me like the Buckner play. The magnitude of the Buckner play was MUCH greater, and besides, any true Red Sox fan will tell you that the Sox had already coughed up the lead prior to Buckner's boner.

I do agree that the Twins looked defeated after that play, which says a lot more about how tight they are and what little faith they have in their offense right now. I mean, a two-run lead with three times at bat left? Hardly insurmountable. But with these hitless wonders, it was.

by wcooley on Oct 5, 2006 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions

Not

I'm not saying we neccesarily have to run him out of town, but that was as asynine decision to dive on that ball, a ball he had no chance at, didn't NEED to catch, and had aboslutly ZERO backup on.

As soon as he dove, the disaster was set in stone.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 5, 2006 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions

I couldn't agree more

The first job of an outfielder when there's a man on first base and 2 out is to not let the ball get by you. Worst case it's 1st and 3rd with out. Add to that the score was tied. Add to that the fact you are playing on turf. You don't decide to go for it until you have a proper angle to at least keep it in front of you. What if Rondell had tried that in left? Would he be run out of town? The only time going for that ball would be a good decision would be if the pitcher had a no-hitter going and your team had a 3-run lead. Otherwise, it's just dumb and any little leaguer would tell you the same.

by eswanson55 on Oct 5, 2006 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions

White Catching the Ball

If Rondell WHite ahd tried that catch, he probably would have been carried out of the Metrodome on a stretcher.....

by twintown on Oct 5, 2006 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions

agree agree agree

see my never say die. i can't write anymore i've blowen up i'm so worn out from being at the dome. it may take to january to get over HUnter, Gardy, TR and yes TK. i may never forget what they have done and not done. the sonic boooooooooooommm is me i just blew upq4 )(%$#@%!^%&(&)(&%^#$@#!@#~#@$%%$

"hi everybody" Herb Carneal Hall of fame baseball announcer.

by firstatbat61 on Oct 4, 2006 7:50 PM EDT reply actions

MontanaTwinsFan - Good Response

Montana, I agree with you whole-heartedly on the fact that this play should not define Torii's career or even season for that matter. He has been as good as we could have ever dreamed defensively in his career. BUT... what makes his error soooo bad, is the fact that it was entirely mental. Diving and coming up short on that ball is not an error... nobody that I've ever seen could have made that play. The error was in not knowing the situation and in lacking the intelligence/awareness/self control (one of those three) to play that ball on a hop and save 2 runs. But yes, I do agree that the play should not be the defining moment in a stellar career.

by SDTwinsFan on Oct 4, 2006 7:57 PM EDT reply actions

Torii's Defining Moment

The image of Torii's futile dive at the ball will be seared into my brain forever. The moment he left the ground and before the ball even got past him, I think an infinite number of curse words ran through my mind. I still can't believe someone who is/was known so much for his defense could make such an awful mental mistake.

Barring a miracle comback in this series, or unless Torii is with us next year and we win the WS, this will be the defining moment, in my mind, of Hunter's career. His catch of Bond's potential home run in the All Star game is now (a distant) second.

by MauerPower on Oct 4, 2006 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Agreed, but....

just for fun entertain this speculation.

When I watched the highlight I was positive that I saw that ball tail away from Torii just as he was making his dive. I am positive that is what I saw, but I was equally sure that that was contrary to what little I knew about physics and that instead it was some sort of visual/optic trick.

Then Torii confirmed what I was sure I had seen, which is that the ball DID tail away from him as he went to make the dive.

I know he could be making excuses but I would challenge you all you watch it again just for the heck of it.

by montanatwinsfan on Oct 5, 2006 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions

I saw it too

But only on replay, and only in slow motion. Camera angles being what they were, it seemed like a straight line drive, but when t's slowed down, it does move a few feet towards right field, and just at the end. So Torii's story holds up, and, as a former center fielder, I can only imagine what it's like to judge a line drive that's knuckling or hooking right at you. It's not an easy play, and he only had a split second to make the decision of whether to go for it or not. It's his nature to go for it, and it had disasterous consequences.

Still, he needs to learn in that situation. Just as a hitter who might be inclined to swing at the first pitch needs to adjust if the pitcher is having trouble throwing strikes, a fielder needs to adjust his tendancies considering the circumstances of the game. With two outs, an outfielder should be more cautious. If that was the sure game-winning hit, it's acceptable to take the chance. With another out to go and no runners scoring if he plays it safe, the smart play is to play it safe. The point is, a veteran outfielder can't approach every ball the same way. He has to adjust to the situation. And Hunter failed to do so. In fact he has never done so. In this case it cost us a playoff game.

The more disturbing fact is that he thinks it's a simple case of misjudgement. In fact, it's an error in baseball smarts. If you're not absolutely sure about a ball in that situation, you play it safe. period. It's like the guy who swings for the fences when a simple ground ball to the second baseman is called for. To play winning baseball, you have to stop trying to make the dramatic play and play the percentages. I worry that Hunter just doesn't get that.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Oct 5, 2006 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions

What if he had caught it?

It would still have been a bonehead play, but everyone would be talking about his stellar defense. The key thing for Hunter now is to focus on the next three games, not the last one.

by TT on Oct 4, 2006 9:13 PM EDT reply actions

did you see the play?

I understand that he probably caught himself in the middle and said 'well...gotta go for it now'

He was not going to catch that ball. God wasn't going to catch that ball. Torii is Spiderman, not Superman.

I get your point that 'if he'd have caught it everyone would be patting him on the back', and it is true. He didn't catch it, though. He didn't come close.

After he struck out in the later on I don't know what made me feel worse: Torii getting booed by Twins fans or Torii actually kinda deserving it.

by gophersw on Oct 4, 2006 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions

He couldn't

have caught it the ball was 4 feet away form him That's why it was so stupid on the replay no one except maybe willie mays hayes makes that play and he's not real.

"The key thing for Hunter now is to focus on the next three games, not the last one."

Yeah this is really the key for him he is going to have to come up with a walk to start a rally a key hit,a homer or something not for us for him because cause as much as he's going to try brush this off these things stick with any player and will effect your play even if you try not to let it. It's not like he's going to be thinking about it in the batter's box who knows what he thinks about up thier (For me it was South Park or Scurbs what ever one I had seen last)but this doesn't exactly help your confidance.

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 4, 2006 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions

Not the First Time

This is not the first time that Hunter has taken a poor path to a ball only to let it go by him. In the second half of 2006, it has happened with alarming regularity.

Today it just happened on a big stage and with big consequences. But, I'm not surprised. Hunter takes angles to balls as if he's still the guy he was. But, he's not that guy anymore. He just thinks he is.

SBG -- Your source for half-baked crap

by SBG on Oct 4, 2006 10:50 PM EDT reply actions

Exactly...

It's just that, during the regular season when Hunter pulled that crap, people found a way to blame it on Baker, Garza, etc.

Oh well, just another day in the life of the 2006 Minnesota Twins.

by ubelmann on Oct 5, 2006 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions

Baker?

Ubelmann, you're not using this tragedy as another excuse for Scott Baker's rotten season are you? That's sneaky.

Almost as sneaky as Bill O'Reilly labeling Mark Foley as a Democrat.

by wcooley on Oct 5, 2006 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions

that

was harlious I saw that on the daily show or Colbear Report and LMAO.

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 5, 2006 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions

No...

...I'm just pointing out that with other pitchers on the mound, during the regular season, Hunter did the same stuff. In those situations, Hunter was excused, and all was blamed on the pitcher. Now that we've hit the playoffs, though, it's apparently okay to judge Hunter's fielding for what it is. I guess I just would've preferred seeing his fielding judged correctly in the first place.

(And to be sure, Baker wasn't the only guy that Hunter let down, but Hunter made more than his fair share of blunders with Baker on the mound. And please don't make a strawman out of me--Hunter wasn't the only reason the Twins allowed a lot of runs with Baker out of the mound--but Hunter was a contributing factor.)

by ubelmann on Oct 5, 2006 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Mauer's

at-bat with two guys on and two outs. 2-0 count. I look at my buddy Randy and say "A lot of guys would try to hit this pitch over the baggie, Mauer will try to flip it to left." Hanging curveball, Mauer hits it to the shortstop. Mauer is what he is, but I would have liked to see him cut loose. If he misses he still has two strikes left. But here I am, second-guessing a batting champion.

by wcooley on Oct 4, 2006 11:22 PM EDT reply actions

Me too

Mauer Is a .300 or better hitter and probaly will his whole career. he will have a great career if I had guess a HOF one. But he could be the best ever if he can learn to pull the ball for power. Turely great there are a few player that are remembered forever Ruth, Williams, Mays, Mantle etc and he could be there with them. But he's not there yet don't get me wrong he still has time plenty of time this could be written 3 years from now and he would still have plenty of time.

by FrozenTed9 on Oct 4, 2006 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Hunter Catch...

eh, non-catch. If he had touched the ball and it bounced out of his glove, it would have been a hit with an error, mroe than likely.

If he had made the catch...whew! The glories.

The killer was watching it slowly dribble to the wall and then just die...and realizing that Cuddyer or White were nowhere in the camera's vision. And then the reality that not just one guy will score, but the batter, too!

And then the epic Reyes getting the next batter so easy.

Of course, no one is blaming Reyes for this nice little pitch, which followed a strike and three horrible pitches so far out of the strike zone that not even Cuddyer or Kubel would have swung at them...I think.

by twintown on Oct 5, 2006 12:55 AM EDT reply actions

Hunter wasn't...

...going to make that catch. His glove was about a foot away from the ball. It wasn't a case of Torii gambling for the big play and maybe having a chance of catching the ball. He didn't have a chance to make the big play in that situation. Not even close.

by ubelmann on Oct 5, 2006 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions

A need for readjustment

I don't often agree with Gleeman but I thought his blurb this morning was pretty much dead on. As we would probably all agree, Torii is no longer the gold glove caliber CF we remember--his range is significantly diminished and unless he can fully heal from his varying injuries, that range will not return. Coupled with the fact he is now on the downside of 30, he NEEDS to accept that he is no longer a superstar in the field, but just a good CF. Can he do that? In time, he will have to or continue to make the kind of plays he made yesterday until someone shifts him to LF or RF.

Torii is still a valuable player. His plate discipline is garbage and always will be. But he will most likely remain a 25-30 HR threat with a .270 average for a few more seasons. What is most interesting to me about this situation, at least long-term, is that his unwillingness to accept his decline as an athlete is part and parcel of why he continues to believe or at least publicly declare that he is worth a 4 yr/52 MM contract a la Johnny Damon.

As many of his have said, Torii would be an asset here for the next three or four seasons, perhaps as a RF, perhaps in CF for awhile, hitting 6th or preferably 7th and playing for about 7- 8 MM per season. If yesterday's play is indicative of Torii's mindsight re: his value and abilities as a 31 yr old CF, he will not settle for that amount of money and Terry Ryan will be obliged to sever all ties. Again, none of this means anything for this season....we're probably cooked and he deserves the "blame" for what was an inexcusable decision, but this play also gives Ryan the cover to lay down terms for Torii's return to MN next year and beyond or cut him loose with thanks for some great memories and some that were downright hideous.

by HrbekIsMyHero on Oct 5, 2006 8:23 AM EDT reply actions

Line from Gleeman today

"I have no interest in saying 'I told you so'...."

This is nearly as far-fetched as Hunter's attempt to catch that ball.

by wcooley on Oct 5, 2006 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions

Re: Gleeman line

Yeah, WCooley, no argument with you there. Laughs. Gleeman was probably the happiest guy in the blogosphere when Torii hit the turf without the ball. He may well be right on this one, as I've alluded, but obviously that has been his position all along. The ultimate stats geek---if it can't be quantified, it's bullstuff. His rants on bullpen usage, batting order positions et. al. are a bit over the top for my taste and his tolerance for any dissent is...well, juvenile. But on the ultimate point...e.g. Torii ain't worth 12 MM next season to the Twins....gotta get all those qualifiers in there...he's probably right. But yeah his attempt to avoid being perceived as the smug self righteous a. hole he often is made me giggle a bit also.

by HrbekIsMyHero on Oct 5, 2006 1:41 PM EDT reply actions

Did I see that correctly?

Ill repeat my previous reply here for people to see because I am sure that I saw that ball tail away from Torri just before/as he was making his dive.

SO,just for fun entertain this speculation.

Then Torii confirmed what I was sure I had seen, which is that the ball DID tail away from him as he went to make the dive.

I know he could be making excuses but I would challenge you all you watch it again just for the heck of it.

by montanatwinsfan on Oct 5, 2006 3:27 PM EDT reply actions