Yanking Pitchers

by Dale on Jun 7, 2006 5:00 PM EDT Comment 15 comments

[As I'm new to this blog, here are some caveats about me: I'm a baseball fan, not a fanatic. I like stats, but not enough to research my half-baked theories for a blog.]

I'm not a Gardenhire hater like others around these parts. But I do have a beef with one aspect of his managerial moves:

I think that Ron Gardenhire leaves his pitchers in too long. Am I the only one who feels that way?

In game after game, in close situations, and at pivotal points in the game I'll watch a pitcher work himself into a major jam and instead of Gardenhire pulling him before it gets worse, he'll let the pitcher give up the big hit AND THEN pull him. I'm not talking Bradke giving up a couple of dingers in the 1st inning. I'm talking about a middle/late inning hold situation where, for example, Crain might come in with a two run lead, and promptly load the bases. Instead of Gardenhire pulling Crain out at that point, he'll let the Crain give up the bases clearing double before he pulls him.

Another example might be a shaky start for a Twins pitcher who has given up 4 or 5 runs, but still holds a slim lead in the 5th inning. (A rarity, I know.) So, we start the 5th, the pitcher is laboring. Our guy gives up a quick single and a walk. Does Gardenhire pull him at this point for a long reliever? NO. Gardenhire lets him give up the dinger, or the double or whatever. And, now, the Twins have been put in a position to lose, rather than to win.

I grew up watching Bobby Cox manage the Braves during the 90's. He was great at pulling his pitchers out just before they went over the cliff. The pitcher was given a long leash, up until the point they could lose a winnable game for the team.

I know pitchers need to be able to work out of jams, and have ice water in their veins yada yada yada. I just don't think we always need to give games away to do it.

I'd like to hear what others think.

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Ah, Gardy

In Gardenhire's defense, there are situations where it's beneficial to leave a pitcher in the game. If he pulled a guy in trouble every time things looked ugly, the pitcher is going to get a complex worrying about it and overpitching to not get into a jam. Then he loses confidence and break and control, and it a worse case scenario his mechanics break down and he gets hurt. There are occassions where you should consider leaving a guy out on the mound to take care of his own mess. This says: I have confidence in you, and it says that just because you're on the ropes doesn't mean I'm going to take you off the hook. The pitcher is responsible for what happens, and constantly yanking pitchers can prove hazardous.

BUT, I think you're right. If a game is on the line there needs to be a switch. If there's one out in the fifth and Radke walks a man on his 98th pitch, he needs to be pulled. Pitch counts for a struggling starter are clues Gardenhire seems to ignore, and when a relief pitcher can't retire the first three guys he faces somebody needs to pick up on a clue that gee, maybe this guy just doesn't have it today.

As a general rule management seems to be pretty indecisive this season. This is probably because as a fan I'm extremely frustrated with certain aspects of the club's performance, and am looking for things to tear down...but that doesn't make me wrong.

by Jesse on Jun 7, 2006 5:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's been a little trickier...

...for Gardy this season because Crain has been less reliable than in the past, but in general I'd say he makes some pretty silly decisions about when to remove pitchers from the game. (One of the things that really bothers me is when Ron Gardenhire, a man who professes to not care about statistics, will leave a pitcher in, by his own stated reasoning, to get him the win. Pitchers should be left in as long as it is in the team's best interest that they be out there, and some silly rule about attributing wins to pitchers should have very little to do with that decision.)

The most recent circumstance I can think of where Gardy left a pitcher in too long was Radke's last start in Oakland. The bases were loaded and Chavez came to plate with one out in the 7th inning. As evidenced by Radke's 1 strikeout on the day, the ball was getting put in play a lot, Radke is a fly ball pitcher, and Chavez is a fly ball hitter. After Sunday, Chavez's line against Radke was actually worse than going into the game, and it now sits at .300/.293/.575 after 40 AB. (The OBP is lower than the batting average because now Chavez has a sac fly but he hasn't walked against Radke, not that he'd especially want to with a .575 slugging against him.) Basically, Chavez has owned Radke over a decent number of at-bats, and there's every reason to expect Chavez to own Radke since Chavez is a left-handed hitter, Radke is a right-handed pitcher, and the aforementioned flyball tendancies. Also, Radke has historically been weak at two points during the game--the first inning, and after 95 pitches or so. Well, Radke was up at least around 90 pitches by that Chavez at-bat, so there's another reason that Chavez should be able to do well against Radke.

What the Twins really needed in this situation was a double play or a strikeout. Let's see, did the Twins have a guy in the bullpen who strikes out a lot of guys, doesn't walk much, and induces a lot of groundballs? Yes. Ron Gardenhire, meet Juan Rincon. This was exactly the sort of situation that begs for a guy like Rincon, and if Rincon was left-handed, Gardy would've done it in a heartbeat. But that shouldn't matter AT ALL. Over the last three years, Rincon has been one of the Twins' best pitchers against left-handed batters. They've only hit .198/.296/.271 against Rincon, which is a good line whether your right-handed OR left-handed.

But instead, Gardy put Radke in a situation where he was very likely to fail when he had a perfectly viable option in the bullpen. And if the A's didn't take the lead that inning, the Twins probably wouldn't have seen Huston Street in the 8th, or they certainly wouldn't have seen him in the 10th, and they would've at least had a better chance of winning that game. That move really frustrated me just because watching Radke vs. Chavez over the years, it should be a no-brainer that you don't want Radke facing Chavez when all he needs is a sac fly.

by ubelmann on Jun 7, 2006 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Actually I think

Gardenhire has been doing better with that this year, but I think it's mostly a result of the pitchers being so aweful even HE had to see that he needs to give them a short lease.

As ubelmann illustrated, the instant his veteran (Radke) starts to show some flashes pre-2006 form, Gardy reverts to form and wants them to get the W.

But yes, getting the W is something I've read TwinsGeek complaining about for years before this. At least 2, so you're not alone. I just think it's been less pronouced this year because with the team ERA so high, there's no need to keep the pitcher in to win, by tyhe 7th they've already lost.

by MNPundit on Jun 7, 2006 5:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Gardy's Hook

I agree that Gardy always seems to pull pitchers post-collapse, when the damage is already done. I don't get it; it's not like our bullpen (excepting Crain) is not to be trusted.

And anyone who gives a damn about a useless statistic like Wins should not be employed in any capacity relating to baseball.

by ravenfly on Jun 7, 2006 6:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wins

Wins may not matter to you, or to the TwinsGeek, but they do matter to the pitchers in terms of ego, arbitration, and free agency. Part of the manager's duty is keeping the troops happy, and starters would not be pleased if they were not given opportunities for the "W." We may not like it, but it's probably true.

by wcooley on Jun 8, 2006 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Point

You're probably right; I'm just raging against the machine of "conventional wisdom" that hinders some folks' ability to accurately judge the best way to win a ballgame.

by ravenfly on Jun 9, 2006 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

When Ryan officially declares we're out of it...

Maybe Gardenhire will be more likely to sit the young starters who look tired by the 6th , even if the pitch count is ok. Not trusting the pen won't be as important when we're 15 games out. Instead, the priority should be getting a better look at the young middle reliever we're sure to see as the season wears on.

Good example recently was Bonser in Oakland. Looked tired even before the start of the 6th, even though the pitch count was relatively low. Missing Mauer's glove, etc. Hit Kendall to start the 6th, got a K, then gave up the 2 run HR to Kotsay.

Anybody can leave a guy outt there one batter too long, but Gardenhire missed a great chance for Bonser to have a nice 5 IP, 1 ER performance and instead left him in to give up another dinger to finish with 7IP, 4 ER. Frustrating.

by LaBombo on Jun 7, 2006 6:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

the problem here

is that its really easy to know when you should have taken the pitcher out AFTER the big hit....while i agree that more often than not the pitchers are being left in longer than they should be, what kind kind of guage can we use to know when they are cooked? gardy seems to use his gut. what else do you have?

by jordanf on Jun 7, 2006 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Leaving in a Pitcher

I still haven't figured out why Gardy would, in the past, use a left-handed reliever when he started a left-hander.

The other day with Crain is a good example. The guy didn't have great stuff. The game was winnable (depending on who the abd guys pitched). If a relief pitcher walks a guy...maybe pull him, fine him and MAKE HIM FEEL BAD. Okay, that's an extreme...but don't give up a walk and a homer, guys.

Do you play the game of baseball, or do you play to win. The otehr night in Seattle the Mariners used 3 or was it four pitchers in one inning, bringing in their closer to end the eigth AND pitch the ninth. They wanted the win.

Yes, no one can predict the outcome of a batter/pitcher duel. But there are bodies to use...use them.

Play to win...it's the name of the game to put fannies in the seat.

by twintown on Jun 7, 2006 11:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ugh...

If you want to saw off all of the arms in our bullpen, go ahead and advocate Grover's amazing arm-shredding tactics. Using 4 pitchers in an inning is almost always poor managing. Just removing and inserting pitchers for the sake of changing guys is not a good strategy.

Except that he doesn't use Nathan enough in non-save situations, I've once again been pretty okay with Gardy's bullpen usage--once he gets to the bullpen. It's that trigger to remove the starters that he's been having real issues with this season.

by ubelmann on Jun 8, 2006 3:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

if anyone has

ever coached at any level I'm sure they will tell you that deciding when to switch pitchers is the hardest job a manager has. I think I did it right once in my coaching "career." Not only is it hard to know when, but the manager is also dealing with fragile pitching egos pumped up on adrenaline (see: LaLohse, Kyle).

by wcooley on Jun 8, 2006 11:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Sure...

...it's hard in general, but Gardy's philosophy, as judged by his actions, is that he doesn't care about how the rookies feel when they get pulled, but he will protect the veterans' feelings at all costs. There are really just some pretty obvious situations here and there where Gardy screws up. In previous seasons, I've thought he's been pretty decent at these decisions, but this season he seems to be doing poorly in just about every area of the game.

by ubelmann on Jun 8, 2006 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nathan in nonsave situations

My only beef is that he reserves Nathan mostly for the few occasions when he can get the save. Last nght would have been a good time to put Nathan in the game after Crain had his one effective inning. All Gardy has to do is look at Crain's efficiency after his first inning of work. You can look it up, it's not good. And it's especially bad in his third inning of work. His counterargument might be that he had already used Eyre, Reyes, Rincon, and Crain. But, worst case, if Joe Mauer doesn't get the lead for Nathan, you still have Guerrier after Nathan's two innings.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Jun 8, 2006 11:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs