Educate Me

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 1:53 PM EDT Comment 38 comments

Javy Lopez was traded from the Baltimore Orioles to Boston today for for a player to be named and a cash gift from Petey Angelos. This allows the Red Sox to replace injured catcher Jason Varitek with a former All-Star. The question is, why didn't the Twins or another team in playoff contention block this move since it came after the trade deadline?

The way I understand trades after the deadline is that the player to be traded has to clear waivers, and each team is given a chance to claim players from the bottom up. Since the Twins have a lower winning percentage than the Sox, shouldn't they have claimed Lopez to block him from improving the Red Sox?

On the other hand, is it possible that if the Twins would have claimed Lopez the Orioles could have said, "Fine, take him," and saddled the Twins with the rest of his $9 million contract? Or can the Twins say "just kidding, we really didn't want him, we just wanted to make sure he didn't go to the Red Sox" and then he goes back to the Orioles or becomes a free agent?

Or, is it possible that Ryan thinks that at 35, Lopez is nowhere near the player that put up a .328 ba with 43 home runs and 109 RBIs in his best year in Atlanta, and will not improve any team, no matter where he ends up, so there is no need to block him?

Lopez is currently hitting .265 with eight home runs and 31 RBIs in 279 at-bats and has only caught in only 21 of the Orioles' 109 games. His OBP is .314, slugging .412. Obviously the Red Sox think he will help them, so shouldn't Terry Ryan think the same?

Educate me, please.

0 recs | Comment 38 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Waivers

Is it possible that if the Twins would have claimed Lopez the Orioles could have said, "Fine, take him," and saddled the Twins with the rest of his $9 million contract?

Yes, this is very possible.

Or can the Twins say "just kidding, we really didn't want him, we just wanted to make sure he didn't go to the Red Sox" and then he goes back to the Orioles or becomes a free agent?

This is not possible, as I understand. The Orioles could essentially say "Just kidding" and withdraw him from waivers, but if we put in the claim, the Orioles could just as easily just ship 'em to us (I believe this has happened most notably with Randy Myers and Jose Canseco).

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Risks

By putting in a waiver claim to block the move, Ryan is risking the Orioles not pulling him back off waivers. If the Orioles don't take him off waivers, the Twins are stuck with him and his bloated salary. And that is an expensive proposition for a marginal upgrade at DH. For the same reason, the Yankees, White Sox, and Blue Jays all passed on making a waiver claim and he cleared waivers. Then he was available to the highest bidder, which was the Red Sox, who bid to take on the biggest portion of Lopez salary and to give a PTBL in exchange. No other team was willing to give up even that much.

Lopez was never a good defensive catcher. And his offense has gradually deteriorated over the years. He still can be an OK bak-up, but if the Sox plan on using him as their everyday catcher, I'm liking this move as a Twins fan.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Aug 4, 2006 2:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't know...

...Lopez seems like a pretty nifty upgrade over Doug ".187/.253/.352" Mirabelli, even if Lopez is declining. Mirabelli's got some pop, but that .253 OBP is just horrific.

by ubelmann on Aug 4, 2006 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

last nite

the catcher was Ken "AAAA" Huckaby, lifetime .257 obp .282 slg in 425 career at-bats. Lopez seems to be an improvement over either of these dudes.

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

response

Lopez might be an offensive upgrade over Mirabelli right now, but I don't think I'd advocate the Twins spending $1.5 million (amount the Red Sox are on the hook for) plus a minor leaguer to block a wild-card competitor from a backup catcher upgrade.

If Varitek is indeed out for awhile (not sure), then I'm surprised the Yankees didn't put in a claim to force the Red Sox to start Mirabelli, Huckaby, etc. That would seem to indicate that the unanimous opinion of Lopez's skills isn't very good anymore (especially when you factor in defense).

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yankees

Since the Yanks have a better record than the Red Sox, do they have the opportunity to claim Lopez? The way I understand it, the claim opportunities go from worst to first.

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lopez cleared waivers, I think

I thought this too, but the latest reports have been saying Lopez cleared waivers entirely, and the Orioles were free to trade him to whomever.

http://blogs.baltimoresun.com/sports_custom_roch/2006/08/theres_always_r.html

I also wonder when the claim opportunity order is determined -- if Lopez was first placed on waivers a few days ago, perhaps the Yankees were still behind the Red Sox?

MLB could make a killing publishing a comprehensive book of this stuff! (At least before it all leaked online)

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yankees...

...also may have been unwilling to have to DFA their backup catcher. I'm not sure about their catching situation, though, so I shouldn't say too much.

I wasn't suggesting at all that the Twins should have claimed Lopez. I see no place for him on this team, especially for the price. I was just saying that this is clearly an upgrade for the Red Sox, since they were getting below replacement level production at catcher in the absence of Varitek.

...but I don't think I'd advocate the Twins spending $1.5 million (amount the Red Sox are on the hook for) plus a minor leaguer to block a wild-card competitor from a backup catcher upgrade.

This statement might indicate that maybe you're misunderstanding the waiver process a bit. If the Twins did put in a waiver claim (which I'm still not really advocating), and they were the first in line of teams that claimed Lopez, then that would give the Twins an exclusive period during which they could try to reach a deal for Lopez. But if the Twins didn't really want to trade for Lopez, then they wouldn't have to. The risk, then, is just that the Orioles would waive Lopez and the Twins would be on the hook for his salary--NOT his salary and a minor leaguer. Essentially, the only risk for putting in the waiver claim to block a team from trading a player is just getting stuck with the player and his salary. If you want to get the player, you might have to trade someone, but you wouldn't have to.

by ubelmann on Aug 4, 2006 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Catchers and mustaches

The Yankees recently claimed Salvatore Frank (Sal) Fasano off waivers from the Phillies to be the back-up catcher, but this was not so much for his career .298 obp or .401 slg, but because he has the best mustache in the majors. The Yankees, as y'all know, have been struggling at the gate and are trying to appeal to the policeman, union plumber, village people, and porn star demographic simultaneously.

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Had to cut off the handle bars

To suit George's facial hair edicts. Remember the Goose? He'd have to trim the greatest stache in baseball history to satisfy Steinbrenner.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Aug 4, 2006 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fasano

Even if they made him shave the mustache, Fasano has some kind of positive defensive reputation, I assume, which is more complimentary to Posada than Lopez's current skill set.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather have Fusano

For his defense and his clubhouse reputation. Siilar to Redmond. Lopez is a prima donna. Fusano's release says something about Seth's palChris Coste, one of the feel good stories of the year.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Aug 4, 2006 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Coste

was 4-5 with 2 rbi last nite, is hitting .375, and is from Concordia...but does he have a sweet cookie-duster? No, and that's why I prefer Sally.

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Waivers

I understand we wouldn't have to surrender a player if we had made a waiver claim. But neither possible situation is desirable for the Twins. Either

A) The Twins claim him, and they're on the hook for the full $2.5-$3 million or whatever, at the Orioles' discretion

B) They pass on making the claim like everyone else, but they now have to out-bid the Red Sox offer of assuming roughly $1.5 million of salary and a minor leaguer.

Not really worth it either way just to block the Red Sox from a marginal, perhaps temporary upgrade, and I agree certainly not worth it considering the Twins roster.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i assume

that boston claimed lopez. how could the red sox take the chance that he wouldnt be claimed by the yankees or any team in the national league. Boston couldnt be "outbid" for someone they had exclusive bargining rights on.

by Pete Palumbo on Aug 4, 2006 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Whitey Tighties

I agree that it probably wasn't worth the risk for the Twins to claim Lopez, but what about the White Sox? With Thome's and Konerko's health issues they might be looking at a lot of Ross Gload time at first base. With their increased revenues they could have afforded Lopez. Maybe even Kenny Williams thinks Gload is better than old Javy.

by wcooley on Aug 4, 2006 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If they hadn't just acquired Alomar...

perhaps. But I don't think even Williams would messwith that.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Aug 4, 2006 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nothing

there is no cost to claim a player assuming baltimore would pull lopez back off of waivers if he was claimed. The team that made the claim is not required to trade for the player, they have the option to. TR could have just claimed the guy and then said he didn't want him. he would be stuck on the orioles for the rest of the year.

by Pete Palumbo on Aug 4, 2006 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not nothing

This isn't exactly true, Pete. The claiming team cannot withdraw their claim, only the team requesting the waivers can withdraw (the Orioles, in this case).

If TR made a claim, it's very likely the Orioles would have given Lopez to the Twins and forced us to pay his salary this year. As noted above, teams have done this in recent years with Randy Myers and Jose Canseco.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i

i am well aware a team cannot withdraw its claim. i guess i should have been more clear as i was assuming that the orioles wouldnt just dump lopez on the team claiming him and would have to work out a trade. a trade the twins wouldnt make.

by Pete Palumbo on Aug 4, 2006 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

i

"assuming baltimore would pull lopez back off of waivers if he was claimed"

by Pete Palumbo on Aug 4, 2006 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

That quote is correct, with a big emphasis on the word "assuming."

But, in the same post, you also said this:

TR could have just claimed the guy and then said he didn't want him. he would be stuck on the orioles for the rest of the year.

That's what I was saying was completely untrue -- once TR makes the claim, it doesn't matter whether he wants him or not, and the Orioles would not be not "stuck" with him at that point.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yes

that is why i wrote the word "assuming" in my post. If TR claimed lopez and the orioles pulled him back off waviers (my assumption) how would the twins be stuck with him? They wouldn't. The orioles would have 48 or 72 hours to work out a trade with us. if no trade is worked out then the player remaines on his team and cannot go on waivers for 1 month. Baltimore would effectivly be "stuck" with him.

by Pete Palumbo on Aug 4, 2006 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I follow

I see it's mostly semantics, but your post was just unclear. Take the following statement you made:

The team that made the claim is not required to trade for the player, they have the option to.

This is also somewhat misleading, since the claiming team really doesn't have any "options" -- the team requesting waivers still holds all the cards.

In this case, it's fairly clear the Orioles just wanted Lopez gone. If TR put in a claim, he would have either had to eat the full salary, or the Orioles would have pressured him into coughing up a minor leaguer for Lopez plus cash considerations.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

This has happened before

I believe this exact thing has happened at least once in recent memory. I believe Randy Myers, in the steep decline phase of his career, was put on waivers. To block a potential trade, another team put in a claim and ended up getting stuck with him for the next year and a half, at a pretty inflated price. I'm thinking the Padres were involved, but don' quote me on that.

So, the risk from the Twins standpoint would be claiming him and then getting stuck paying the rest of his salary for the remainder of his contract. If he's under contract next year, I think they'd get stuck with that, too.

by SDfan on Aug 4, 2006 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Criminy

I just read spycake's comments. Now I look like a plagiarizing hack. Doh.

by SDfan on Aug 4, 2006 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Doh

Don't worry -- at least you offered some clarification of the teams involved!

I don't have a copyright disclaimed on my posts anyway. Yet.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Catching and hitting

I was about to say defense is much more important than offense for a catcher, but you knew that. And Mirabilli is not Henry Blanco behind the plate. So, yeah, it's not a bad pick-up for a team in desperate need of a catcher. Still, it's a pretty big dropoff from Veritech.

Joe Mauer for MVP.

by cmathewson on Aug 4, 2006 2:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Defense

And Mirabilli is not Henry Blanco behind the plate.

True, but isn't Mirabelli the knuckleball-catching expert, for Tim Wakefield's sake?

Basically, the Red Sox needed a competent regular catcher with Varitek's injury, and those are hard to come by after the trade deadline. Lopez might be a decent upgrade over Mirabelli/Huckaby but he probably won't be a difference-maker.

I was thinking why the Yankees wouldn't claim him, or other teams, but they simply don't have the immediate catching need of the Red Sox. And Lopez isn't much of a backup upgrade for most teams, considering his defense.

by spycake on Aug 4, 2006 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't

You can't just block any deal you want, for reasons explained here.

We'd get stuck wiht him, and we definitely don't want him.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 4, 2006 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't be so quick...

to doubt Javy with this move. I could very easily see him being rejuvenated, especially as a RH seeing that big green monster to bang balls off of in LF, and hitting very well for a month. If he does exactly that, the Red Sox make out very well in this deal.

I'm none too happy about the move.

by djskilbr on Aug 5, 2006 5:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wait a minute, guys .....

The whole reason he was put on waivers was because someone ("Red Sox") wanted him & a trade to the Orioles was in place (if he cleared waivers, that is).

If the Twins claim him, then the Orioles are faced with three options - work a trade to the Twins; pull him back; let him go.

Assume the Twins aren't willing to offer anything of substance & the Orioles decide to let him go. Don't the Red Sox still need a catcher????

Quite honestly, the reason Lopez wasn't claimed is because no one wanted to p--- off the Red Sox & Orioles by throwing a monkey wrench in their trade.

by BD57 on Aug 5, 2006 8:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Or...

Quite honestly, the reason Lopez wasn't claimed is because no one wanted to p--- off the Red Sox & Orioles by throwing a monkey wrench in their trade.

Or because nobody else wanted Lopez. I'm sure the Orioles would have been happy to ship his entire salary to another team.

by spycake on Aug 5, 2006 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

they

They didn't even do that since Baltimore sent enough cash along in the deal to cover at least most of the rest of his contract for the year to Boston. All they got in return was a PTBNL and more roster flexiblility.

"Baseball is great because you can't take a knee or kill the clock. You have to put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn chance." C Stengel

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 6, 2006 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Plus....

The Red Sox did catcher overkill, picking up the released guy from the WHite Sox and...horrors of horror...recalling Corky Miller from the minors to serve as...what?

by twintown on Aug 7, 2006 2:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Correction

The Orioles actualy signed former White Sox catcher Chris Widger to take Lopez' place.

Still doesn't explain why the Red Sox brought up Corky Miller, though. I don't even think Boston has much confidence in Lopez anymore (which makes sense, given they allegedly didn't just pluck him off waivers, but held out for a partial salary kickback from Baltimore).

by spycake on Aug 7, 2006 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs