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Your Choice: Mike Cameron or Torii Hunter

For about half the price of Hunter, the Twins could fill the hole in center field with the veteran Cameron.  How do the two compare?

As much fun as it would be to indulge the idea of plucking Andruw Jones off the free agent market, it's far more likely that Minnesota (should Hunter not be re-signed) would be looking to the next tier of center field possibilities.  Corey Patterson, Kenny Lofton and Mike Cameron fit the financial bill, while Aaron Rowand is likely to sign with a team willing to throw more dollars at him than would the Twins.  Between Patterson, Lofton and Cameron, Cameron's tools mirror Torri's the closest.  He has good power for a center fielder, strikes out often and has a collection of Gold Gloves.

If they were the same player, the decision to bring back Torii or to select Cameron would be a no-brainer.  While a five-year contract for Hunter is likely to average between $14 and $16 million per season, a two or three-year deal for the free agent Padre is likely to average $6 to $8 million.  Obviously they aren't the same player, making the comparison one worth the research.

The summer of 2008 will be Cameron's age-35 season, while Hunter would be 32.  Both players are in the years of their careers where production in most parts of their game is in decline, but the 2 1/2 year age gap is definitely a dimension that should play into any decision.  Age on it's own isn't the determining factor, and looking at the last two years, each center fielder has still been providing their brand of offense.  Torii has had two of his best offensive years, while Mike has been providing solid, Cameron-esque offense.  Hunter clearly is not declining at the plate, while at the worst Cameron is dropping off just slightly.  Considering the age gap, this is to be expected:  Cameron will continue to decline, even if slowly, while Hunter is approaching the years where a player of his profile will begin the slide.

Neither player has had a history of recurring disabled list stints.  In fact, the most time each player has spent out of the lineup was in 2005, when Cameron lasted only 76 games with the Mets while Fenway shortened Torii's season to 98 games.  Which reminds me, they had eerily similar years at the dish in '05--check this out:

Player  Games  HR   Avg   Obp   Slg   OPS+
Hunter    98   14  .269  .337  .452   107
Cameron   76   12  .273  .342  .477   113

Torii Hunter has a career OPS+ of 104; Cameron 107.  Torii Hunter has collected six Gold Gloves (going on seven); Cameron three.  Cameron has averaged nearly 25 stolen bases a year since 1997 at a 78% success rate; Hunter has averaged just over 17 stolen bases the last six seasons with a 70% success rate.

Ultimately both of these guys have very similar profiles.  Is age the defining factor, or is it the monetary commitment?  Essentially this is what it comes down to, unless you're willing to look at offensive projections.  Here is how PECOTA forecasts both Cameron and Hunter through 2011.

2008
Player    PA  2B  HR  BB  SO  SB   Avg   Obp   Slg  VORP  Age

Cameron  421  21  17  45  94  14  .263  .349  .476  17.5  35
Hunter   471  23  17  35  83  12  .280  .338  .462  16.2  32

2009
Player    PA  2B  HR  BB  SO  SB   Avg   Obp   Slg  VORP  Age

Cameron  404  20  16  44  92  11  .255  .340  .467  11.3  36
Hunter   442  21  16  33  77   9  .276  .334  .460  13.6  33

2010
Player    PA  2B  HR  BB  SO  SB   Avg   Obp   Slg  VORP  Age

Cameron  294  14  11  31  68   7  .252  .336  .453   7.2  37
Hunter   390  18  14  30  70   8  .272  .331  .453   9.9  34

2011
Player    PA  2B  HR  BB  SO  SB   Avg   Obp   Slg  VORP  Age

Cameron  270  13  11  26  64   6  .249  .328  .454   3.9  38
Hunter   296  14  11  22  51   6  .270  .327  .447   5.7  35

PECOTA believes that Hunter's value will remain largely the same from '08 - '09, with vastly increasing chances of attrition beginning in 2010.  Cameron, on the other hand, is already in the midst of a forecasted decline beginning next season.  This has as much to do with the age of each player (Hunter's age in 2010 was Cameron's age in 2007) as it has to do with their profile.

The obvious point to bring up here is that these are forecasts made prior to the 2007 season; it will be interesting to see how much these forecasts change when this last year's statistics are plugged in.  With the Twins in need of offense going into next summer, the forecasts will carry more weight with me once they've been updated.

Keeping Hunter guarantees certain things, provided he stays healthy.  You're going to get that offensive presence hitting in the middle of the order, which we all know matters a great deal coming out of a season where the runs were a little too hard to come by.  But by not signing Hunter, would that available chunk of cash be enough to pick up not just one, but two hitters who can provide some depth past the six-hole?  Even if neither player provides the punch that Hunter does individually, is it worth it to fill two holes with players whose offensive upside is a step or two below what we've come to expect from Torii?  If the first year of Hunter's contract is worth $13,000,000, could the Twins sign Cameron and, via trade or another free agency signing, find an answer at third base or designated hitter for the same amount?

All this comparing has assumed that the Twins have an option of one or the other.  If they decide not to take advantage of their exclusive negotiation period with Torii, there's no guarantee that Cameron (or any other center field option) would be available to the Twins.

It's all about the trade-offs.  Bill Smith presumably does have more money to spend this off-season than the Twins were used to having the last ten seasons, but that money is easily spent and isn't enough to make his decisions easy.  Under the assumption that it's either Torii or Mike Cameron, let's play a game:  who do you want and why?

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Cameron
Cameron has long been my choice to replace Hunter when Hunter is gone.  Hunter is a somewhat better player, but Cameron is a very nice player in his own right, and the price is much mroe right at this point.

Cameron is just coming off a 3 year, 19.5 million dollar deal that tunrned into a 4 year, 26.5 million dollar deal when the Padres took his 7 million dollar option for 2007.  If the 7 million mark, the highest he was paid in any one year of that contract, serves as a benchmark, I think that a 2-year, 16 million dollar offer would be a very competitive one, and a good one for the Twins be to be able to make as well.  If the third year is needed, a 3 year, 20 million dollar deal would be highly reasonable as well, or perhaps the side could discuss something like the 8 mil a year for 2 years with a team option on a third year at 8 mil.

Is there anyone else who thinks that such an offer would not be at LEAST right up there with any other offers he may get?

I think signing Cameron to such a contract is a fully realistic possibility that would both help the Twins very adequately fill their gap in center and still leave most of our offseason budget intact.

IT's unfortunate that this offseason, the players we could resign fill holes that we can most address, ie, Starting Pitcher (Silva wants to come back, we just can't pay him) and Center Field (probably the only position stock full of good free agents this year).

What would we do with the last 16 mil or so?  Blow it all on Bonds and hope 3rd base works out?  Get Abreu and Ensberg (and have even more left over)?   Lowell and Sweeney?  Hire a hypnotist to hornswaggle A-rod into coming here on the virtue of small-market love?  What?

We've had all those open-ended discussion before, but staying on topic, I think signing Cameron is the first acquisition we should make.  Then, with that problem totally settled, we can move on from there.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Oct 11, 2007 2:10 AM EDT reply actions  

The benchmark
Perhaps you're right about the value, but I suspect he'll make more this offseason than he has, despite his age. For one thing, he's actually gotten better with age. And a lot of teams that are looking for center fielders don't pay as much attention to age as they should (e.g. the Giants).

When he signed that contract, it was one of the richest in baseball for a center fielder. But with Wells and Ichiro making Damon's contract seem like a bargain, I suspect he'll get a raise to the $10 million level.

Still I would sign him to a two year deal at that price and save the $5 to $8 mil per year you would spend on Hunter.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Oct 11, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

The poll
I guess I don't get the poll question. If money was no object, I would think it's clearly down to Hunter and Jones at that point. And, while it would be nice to remain loyal to a player and all that, there's no way I would choose Hunter over Jones.

As far as Cameron/Hunter, I'd pick Cameron because it would allow us to round out the rest of the roster with better talent, rather than investing twice the dollars in a very similar player.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Oct 11, 2007 6:30 AM EDT reply actions  

I say
money as no object, because that's the only way to find out who you think the best player is.  If money IS an object, then you're more likely to go after a Lofton or Patterson, or even an in-house solution.  But if money isn't an object, then you could pick anyone you wanted...and just because a player is the most expensive, that doesn't necessarily mean he's the best option.  Money and talent level don't always go hand-in-hand.  With money as no object, while you're free to choose the most expensive if that's the route you want to take, you're also free to take the best.

by Jesse on Oct 11, 2007 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Okay
I guess I'm just baffled as to how Rowand currently has twice the votes of Andruw Jones. Must be a lot of "what have you done for me lately?" going on.
Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Oct 11, 2007 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jones is my second choice
He would look mighty good in the clean-up spot. I'd much rather have him than Rowand. And I expect they'll be about the same cost. Rowand is good, but he's not a gold glover; nor is he capable of hitting 40 HRs.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Oct 11, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm assuming Hunter is gone
With that said, the question is whether we go win now vs rebuild.  If it is win now, go sign Cameron, and take the money saved and sign Bonds and maybe a 1 year rental at 2B (3b doesn't have anything decent in the market)

If it is rebuild, then I really don't know as I suspect Cameron wouldn't be too interested in coming here.

by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 11, 2007 7:55 AM EDT reply actions  

The Key Word......
The key word to signing any free-agent is "competitive." Will the Twins be competitive, and not just for 2008 but beyond.

They can live without Hunter, but it's what they do with Santana, Morneau, and to a lesser extent Cuddyer and what the future looks like for Mauer and Liriano, that are key points.

They may be able to wait on Nathan and just pay the low-priced option for 2008 and hope that one of the arms (Crain, Neshek, Guerrier) develops into closer material.

And in order to get someone like, say, Cameron, the Twins have to appear to be ready to improve via free agency. Make overtures to some folks, hopefully sign some others.

No one will want to come to play here is they are going to build solely on what's in the system, sorry. Yes, the Twins may win that way, but players (like fans) have this false sense of oneupsmanship when the dollars fly about for "proven" players, so to speak.

The BIG THING Smith and Co. should remember, though, is you don't progress OR win by signing bottom of the barrell free agents, waiting until everyone else has signed and getting the last desperate guys on payroll. It only worked for Kenny Rogers, but is not guaranteed to ever work again.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Oct 11, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions  

direction?
Cameron would seem a good fit if he doesn't get into a bidding war elsewhere. However they didn't want to give Hunter more than 3 years because of his age in year 4 & 5 which is Camerons age now. So that sounds like only saving money not like trying to win. Ensberg has no better numbers than Buscher had (in the same # of at bats)so no gain there and lot more money. Sweeney has played  74 games in 07 and 60 in 06 sounds like another R. White. Again it looks like it will take more money than what they want to spend to be a chamionship type team, with Cuddyer, Morneau, Nathan and Santana coming up. We know going cheap, Ponson, Ortiz, Batista, Castro and White etc. doesn't work. Either spend what it takes or go young and trade Santana and Nathan.

by grumpy on Oct 11, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions  

My choice is still Rowand...
even though he'll cost more, just because I'm more worried about Cameron's health, and I'm a bit gunshy after White.  But if he doesn't make more than $8 M/year in his new deal, he's the way to go.  

If money was no object though, no way I take Andruw over Hunter at this point, and not over Rowand either.  Rowand and Hunter are MUCH better defensively at this point to me, and are more solid all-around hitters.  1) I don't believe Jones is really his "age"; I think he's older as his decline has CERTAINLY begun at a faster rate than the others at this point; 2) From what I've seen of him this year, I'm not even sure he should be a CF anymore at all.  He's just bad out there now.

by djskilbr on Oct 11, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions  

A bad year doesn't make a career
I don't see how you can assume that because Jones had one bad year that it signals an immediate and dramatic decline from career norms. His previous two seasons were two of his best ever, and they are certainly better than any season Hunter has ever had.

2005:
    AVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
Jones    .263    .347    .575    .922
Hunter    .269    .337    .452    .789

2006:
    AVG    OBP    SLG    OPS
Jones    .262    .363    .531    .894
Hunter    .278    .336    .490    .826

Jones definitely had an awful 2007, but when I look at his career numbers, I have to think it's the exception, rather than the previous 9-10 seasons. I can't speak to fielding though, as I've only seen Hunter play for the most part.

As far as Rowand goes, 2 of his 4 full seasons have been almost as bad as Jones' 2007, with the other 2 being more similar to his 2006. His track record isn't nearly as strong as Jones at this point, as it seems just as likely that he'll post a .740 OPS as a .900.

I think you're placing far too much emphasis solely on 2007 performances and not on the rest of their careers.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Oct 12, 2007 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well
The formatting looked right in my post, but got messed up after. =(
Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Oct 12, 2007 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

I was referring mostly...
to fielding.  He has declined a LOT from the games I've seen him vs. in the past.  MUCH moreso than Hunter/Rowand.  I say again; I really don't believe his age.  Call me crazy for it, but I don't.  I don't think it's usual for a player that was SO good in CF as he was to decline as much as he has (at least IMO) at his "age."

As for offense I could still see him being the best bet, but his offense has always been VERY inconsistent to me.  That's all I mean about "all around hitter."  I just think it's more of a gamble than the other two.  And given his decline in defense, it's not worth it to me.  Say what you want about Torii, but he has actually been very consistent offensively throughout his career.  It's certainly not ideal, but you kind of know what you're getting.  And to me, he's getting a bit BETTER offensively as he's learning to be a bit more patient/selective than in the past (I attribute most of this to Joe Mauer, as even Hunter has made mention of it).  And Rowand is only 30 himself and just starting to get it too, in my view.  In fact, not sure if I mentioned it or not, but Rowand's the guy I probably take out of all of them, given age/defense/probable salary (I think he'll make less than Hunter/Jones because of PR, not talent).

In the end, I think cases can certainly be made for any of the 3, or Cameron even.  But if it's my money and it's not object, I'm taking Rowand or Torii no question over Jones for the next 4-5 years.  Unless I'm ready for him to be a DH or LF in a couple years.  Just my opinion.

by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2007 1:34 AM EDT reply actions  

I wonder if he was hurt
He sure looked like he was having foot or ankle problems. Perhaps he didn't want to complain about it. But he looked like a different player last year. I don't believe guys drop off the table that fast. He'll bounce back, and maybe if other GMs think like you Dustin, he'll be a bargain and a candidate for Comeback Player of the Year.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's possible CMath...
I'm just saying he's too much of a gamble for me vs. Hunter/Rowand, especially defensively.

But if the price is right, I'd sure take him too.  In fact, one of my kind of dream scenarios is Jones REALLY wanting to re-establish value, so he signs a 1-2 year deal for say $15 M, the Twins sign him, and he has a monster year in helping us win it all.  

I don't see that as very likely of course, but I suppose it's possible.

by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2007 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

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