Your Choice: Mike Cameron or Torii Hunter
For about half the price of Hunter, the Twins could fill the hole in center field with the veteran Cameron. How do the two compare?
As much fun as it would be to indulge the idea of plucking Andruw Jones off the free agent market, it's far more likely that Minnesota (should Hunter not be re-signed) would be looking to the next tier of center field possibilities. Corey Patterson, Kenny Lofton and Mike Cameron fit the financial bill, while Aaron Rowand is likely to sign with a team willing to throw more dollars at him than would the Twins. Between Patterson, Lofton and Cameron, Cameron's tools mirror Torri's the closest. He has good power for a center fielder, strikes out often and has a collection of Gold Gloves.
If they were the same player, the decision to bring back Torii or to select Cameron would be a no-brainer. While a five-year contract for Hunter is likely to average between $14 and $16 million per season, a two or three-year deal for the free agent Padre is likely to average $6 to $8 million. Obviously they aren't the same player, making the comparison one worth the research.
The summer of 2008 will be Cameron's age-35 season, while Hunter would be 32. Both players are in the years of their careers where production in most parts of their game is in decline, but the 2 1/2 year age gap is definitely a dimension that should play into any decision. Age on it's own isn't the determining factor, and looking at the last two years, each center fielder has still been providing their brand of offense. Torii has had two of his best offensive years, while Mike has been providing solid, Cameron-esque offense. Hunter clearly is not declining at the plate, while at the worst Cameron is dropping off just slightly. Considering the age gap, this is to be expected: Cameron will continue to decline, even if slowly, while Hunter is approaching the years where a player of his profile will begin the slide.
Neither player has had a history of recurring disabled list stints. In fact, the most time each player has spent out of the lineup was in 2005, when Cameron lasted only 76 games with the Mets while Fenway shortened Torii's season to 98 games. Which reminds me, they had eerily similar years at the dish in '05--check this out:
Player Games HR Avg Obp Slg OPS+
Hunter 98 14 .269 .337 .452 107
Cameron 76 12 .273 .342 .477 113
Torii Hunter has a career OPS+ of 104; Cameron 107. Torii Hunter has collected six Gold Gloves (going on seven); Cameron three. Cameron has averaged nearly 25 stolen bases a year since 1997 at a 78% success rate; Hunter has averaged just over 17 stolen bases the last six seasons with a 70% success rate.
Ultimately both of these guys have very similar profiles. Is age the defining factor, or is it the monetary commitment? Essentially this is what it comes down to, unless you're willing to look at offensive projections. Here is how PECOTA forecasts both Cameron and Hunter through 2011.
2008
Player PA 2B HR BB SO SB Avg Obp Slg VORP Age
Cameron 421 21 17 45 94 14 .263 .349 .476 17.5 35
Hunter 471 23 17 35 83 12 .280 .338 .462 16.2 32
2009
Player PA 2B HR BB SO SB Avg Obp Slg VORP Age
Cameron 404 20 16 44 92 11 .255 .340 .467 11.3 36
Hunter 442 21 16 33 77 9 .276 .334 .460 13.6 33
2010
Player PA 2B HR BB SO SB Avg Obp Slg VORP Age
Cameron 294 14 11 31 68 7 .252 .336 .453 7.2 37
Hunter 390 18 14 30 70 8 .272 .331 .453 9.9 34
2011
Player PA 2B HR BB SO SB Avg Obp Slg VORP Age
Cameron 270 13 11 26 64 6 .249 .328 .454 3.9 38
Hunter 296 14 11 22 51 6 .270 .327 .447 5.7 35
PECOTA believes that Hunter's value will remain largely the same from '08 - '09, with vastly increasing chances of attrition beginning in 2010. Cameron, on the other hand, is already in the midst of a forecasted decline beginning next season. This has as much to do with the age of each player (Hunter's age in 2010 was Cameron's age in 2007) as it has to do with their profile.
The obvious point to bring up here is that these are forecasts made prior to the 2007 season; it will be interesting to see how much these forecasts change when this last year's statistics are plugged in. With the Twins in need of offense going into next summer, the forecasts will carry more weight with me once they've been updated.
Keeping Hunter guarantees certain things, provided he stays healthy. You're going to get that offensive presence hitting in the middle of the order, which we all know matters a great deal coming out of a season where the runs were a little too hard to come by. But by not signing Hunter, would that available chunk of cash be enough to pick up not just one, but two hitters who can provide some depth past the six-hole? Even if neither player provides the punch that Hunter does individually, is it worth it to fill two holes with players whose offensive upside is a step or two below what we've come to expect from Torii? If the first year of Hunter's contract is worth $13,000,000, could the Twins sign Cameron and, via trade or another free agency signing, find an answer at third base or designated hitter for the same amount?
All this comparing has assumed that the Twins have an option of one or the other. If they decide not to take advantage of their exclusive negotiation period with Torii, there's no guarantee that Cameron (or any other center field option) would be available to the Twins.
It's all about the trade-offs. Bill Smith presumably does have more money to spend this off-season than the Twins were used to having the last ten seasons, but that money is easily spent and isn't enough to make his decisions easy. Under the assumption that it's either Torii or Mike Cameron, let's play a game: who do you want and why?
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Cameron
Cameron is just coming off a 3 year, 19.5 million dollar deal that tunrned into a 4 year, 26.5 million dollar deal when the Padres took his 7 million dollar option for 2007. If the 7 million mark, the highest he was paid in any one year of that contract, serves as a benchmark, I think that a 2-year, 16 million dollar offer would be a very competitive one, and a good one for the Twins be to be able to make as well. If the third year is needed, a 3 year, 20 million dollar deal would be highly reasonable as well, or perhaps the side could discuss something like the 8 mil a year for 2 years with a team option on a third year at 8 mil.
Is there anyone else who thinks that such an offer would not be at LEAST right up there with any other offers he may get?
I think signing Cameron to such a contract is a fully realistic possibility that would both help the Twins very adequately fill their gap in center and still leave most of our offseason budget intact.
IT's unfortunate that this offseason, the players we could resign fill holes that we can most address, ie, Starting Pitcher (Silva wants to come back, we just can't pay him) and Center Field (probably the only position stock full of good free agents this year).
What would we do with the last 16 mil or so? Blow it all on Bonds and hope 3rd base works out? Get Abreu and Ensberg (and have even more left over)? Lowell and Sweeney? Hire a hypnotist to hornswaggle A-rod into coming here on the virtue of small-market love? What?
We've had all those open-ended discussion before, but staying on topic, I think signing Cameron is the first acquisition we should make. Then, with that problem totally settled, we can move on from there.
The benchmark
When he signed that contract, it was one of the richest in baseball for a center fielder. But with Wells and Ichiro making Damon's contract seem like a bargain, I suspect he'll get a raise to the $10 million level.
Still I would sign him to a two year deal at that price and save the $5 to $8 mil per year you would spend on Hunter.
The poll
As far as Cameron/Hunter, I'd pick Cameron because it would allow us to round out the rest of the roster with better talent, rather than investing twice the dollars in a very similar player.
I say
Okay
Jones is my second choice
I'm assuming Hunter is gone
If it is rebuild, then I really don't know as I suspect Cameron wouldn't be too interested in coming here.
by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 11, 2007 7:55 AM EDT reply actions
The Key Word......
They can live without Hunter, but it's what they do with Santana, Morneau, and to a lesser extent Cuddyer and what the future looks like for Mauer and Liriano, that are key points.
They may be able to wait on Nathan and just pay the low-priced option for 2008 and hope that one of the arms (Crain, Neshek, Guerrier) develops into closer material.
And in order to get someone like, say, Cameron, the Twins have to appear to be ready to improve via free agency. Make overtures to some folks, hopefully sign some others.
No one will want to come to play here is they are going to build solely on what's in the system, sorry. Yes, the Twins may win that way, but players (like fans) have this false sense of oneupsmanship when the dollars fly about for "proven" players, so to speak.
The BIG THING Smith and Co. should remember, though, is you don't progress OR win by signing bottom of the barrell free agents, waiting until everyone else has signed and getting the last desperate guys on payroll. It only worked for Kenny Rogers, but is not guaranteed to ever work again.
by twintown on Oct 11, 2007 10:04 AM EDT reply actions
direction?
by grumpy on Oct 11, 2007 12:47 PM EDT reply actions
My choice is still Rowand...
If money was no object though, no way I take Andruw over Hunter at this point, and not over Rowand either. Rowand and Hunter are MUCH better defensively at this point to me, and are more solid all-around hitters. 1) I don't believe Jones is really his "age"; I think he's older as his decline has CERTAINLY begun at a faster rate than the others at this point; 2) From what I've seen of him this year, I'm not even sure he should be a CF anymore at all. He's just bad out there now.
by djskilbr on Oct 11, 2007 10:58 PM EDT reply actions
A bad year doesn't make a career
2005:
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Jones .263 .347 .575 .922
Hunter .269 .337 .452 .789
2006:
AVG OBP SLG OPS
Jones .262 .363 .531 .894
Hunter .278 .336 .490 .826
Jones definitely had an awful 2007, but when I look at his career numbers, I have to think it's the exception, rather than the previous 9-10 seasons. I can't speak to fielding though, as I've only seen Hunter play for the most part.
As far as Rowand goes, 2 of his 4 full seasons have been almost as bad as Jones' 2007, with the other 2 being more similar to his 2006. His track record isn't nearly as strong as Jones at this point, as it seems just as likely that he'll post a .740 OPS as a .900.
I think you're placing far too much emphasis solely on 2007 performances and not on the rest of their careers.
I was referring mostly...
As for offense I could still see him being the best bet, but his offense has always been VERY inconsistent to me. That's all I mean about "all around hitter." I just think it's more of a gamble than the other two. And given his decline in defense, it's not worth it to me. Say what you want about Torii, but he has actually been very consistent offensively throughout his career. It's certainly not ideal, but you kind of know what you're getting. And to me, he's getting a bit BETTER offensively as he's learning to be a bit more patient/selective than in the past (I attribute most of this to Joe Mauer, as even Hunter has made mention of it). And Rowand is only 30 himself and just starting to get it too, in my view. In fact, not sure if I mentioned it or not, but Rowand's the guy I probably take out of all of them, given age/defense/probable salary (I think he'll make less than Hunter/Jones because of PR, not talent).
In the end, I think cases can certainly be made for any of the 3, or Cameron even. But if it's my money and it's not object, I'm taking Rowand or Torii no question over Jones for the next 4-5 years. Unless I'm ready for him to be a DH or LF in a couple years. Just my opinion.
by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2007 1:34 AM EDT reply actions
I wonder if he was hurt
That's possible CMath...
But if the price is right, I'd sure take him too. In fact, one of my kind of dream scenarios is Jones REALLY wanting to re-establish value, so he signs a 1-2 year deal for say $15 M, the Twins sign him, and he has a monster year in helping us win it all.
I don't see that as very likely of course, but I suppose it's possible.
by djskilbr on Oct 12, 2007 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions

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