Bobby Cuellar is back!
The man who taught Johan and Fransico to throw the change-up and now he is back as Manager of the New Britain Rock Cats. Does anyone else see this as a good thing with all of those great pitching prospects in our system? Who is the next "good" prospect in our system who he turns into the next $300 million dollar man? An I reading too much into this hiring or do any of the rest of you see this as a good move?
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No, you're not reading too much into it...
In fact, you just beat me to an ecstatic post. This is HUGE for the Twins. A number of us have been calling for him to return for a while now. I'm so excited that it's actually happened.
I expect great things for that AA staff now with him there. Especially Sosa and Pino. Can't wait.
I just wish he could replace Gardenhire. He and Rick would be one badass tandem.
by djskilbr on Oct 23, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
Yep...
by djskilbr on Oct 23, 2007 11:43 PM EDT reply actions
Cuellar. A hero for the clueless fan
Gardenhire was a better player, a better minor league manager, a better big-league coach. He's also a better big-league manager, although Cuellar will never manage in the big leagues so I can say that with ease.
Why would anyone think Cuellar is anything special?
Oh. Because someone once read Cuellar "taught" Santana a changeup. Not exactly, but let's examine the miracle career of Bobby Cuellar.
Sorry, folks, he's just a regular guy.
Seattle
1995 Randy Johnson is the staff ace.
There is nothing to suggest Johnson learned anything from Cueller, or that Johnson suffered when Cuellar was not his coach, which was for most of Johnson's career.
So surrender the media guide stuff about Cuellar "working with three Cy Young winners" in Johnson, P.J. Martinez and Santana.
In 1995, the Seattle pitching staff is fifth in the league in ERA. This is Cuellar's best coaching effort, with a team ERA Plus of 106.
Nothing to write home about, but unreal for Bobby.
(Oh, take Randy Johnson out of there and the ERA is not so good for the M's)
1996
Oops. Big drop. Even with Randy Johnson. Hmmm, is it possible the pitching coach really doesn't have all that much control over how Cy Young-caliber pitcher perform?
Johnson's ERA is a lot worse than last year. Why couldn't Bobby keep it on an even keel? Maybe because he isn't the guy pitching, JOhnson is.
ERA is 11th of 14 teams. ERA Plus of 95, which is more like Cuellar's Montreal and Pirate teams. Well, except for his 2007 Pirate team, which was really bad, even though Bobby had 10 more years of coaching experience by that time.
Montreal
1997
Hey, let's toss out Omar Daal, who has worst season of his career under Cuellar. In fact, Daal is traded to the DH-league, the AL, in midseason, yet facing DHs Daal cuts his 9.7 ERA to 4.
How can a guy go TO a DH league and pitch way better when he no longer has Bobby Cuellar by his side?
Cuellar's staff is 7 of 14 in league ERA. ERA Plus is 101.
1998
9th among 16 teams in ERA. ERA plus is 96. This is kind of a hallmark of Bobby's staffs.
1999
Hey. Major Consistency. 9 of 16 again in ERA. ERA plus drops a tad to 95, but that's nearly 96.
By the way, Stade Olympique was a pitcher-favorable park.
Bobby, The Master, working that magic in pitcher-friendly Stade Olympique, leading the Expos to ERAs below league average. Finishing in the middle of the pack at best in team ERA.
2000: Cuellar has a job up to July 20.
Bobby makes it halfway through the season before getting fired as the Expos are en route to an ERA Plus of 94, finishing 13th among 16 teams in league ERA.
Amazing to note: When Cuellar was fired, manager Felipe Alou was not fired midseason. In fact, no other big-league manager had been fired in 2000 when Cuellar managed to get himself fired.
How does a miracle worker get fired when the manager is still around to defend him?
Dick Such was villified in Minnesota as Tom Kelly's pitching coach, yet Such never lost his job. Cuellar managed to.
Texas
2001
Even as a bullpen coach a miracle-worker like Bobby must be able to create some advantage for a team.
Oddly, with Bobby sitting next to him in the bullpen, John Wetteland turns in a 3.6 ERA and 44 saves. The year before Bobby arrived, Wetteland had a 2.02 ERA and 42 saves for a vastly inferior Ranger team.
Makes a guy wonder what magic Bobby provided to nearly double Wetteland's ERA.
Pittsburgh
2006
Staff finished 8 among 16 teams in ERA. ERA Plus is 98. Below league average, but better than it will be in 2007, when Cuellar has a second year to work with the same nucleus of the staff.
2007
Pirates finish 14 of 16 teams in ERA. One other staff in the league surrenders more than the 198 home runs the Pirate pitchers allow. That's a whopping 21 percent more HRs than 2006. ERA Plus is 88.
This is Cuellar's second season with the Pirates, four of the Pirates six most frequent starters are holdovers, but things got worse. How can that be? Bobby Cuellar works miracles.
Ian Snell, Zach Duke, Paul Maholm and Tom Gorzelanny are four of the top six starters on the team for the second year in a row, yet the team's pitching regressed.
Cuellar, the miracle worker, is not retained when manager Jim Tracy is fired.
Here's the bottom line: Bobby Cuellar is just a guy who's had some success and a lot of failure, just like most anyone else in the big leagues.
He's nothing special. Hell, he can't even keep a big-league job. Do you think there is a reason for that? Yup. It's all listed above.
by Firpo Marberry on Oct 27, 2007 3:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Great news
But the bigger issue is to get Cuellar back into the organization. I think he was a big loss for the AAA team, as good as Stu Cliburn is. I always thought he should have been promoted to Stelly's job when the Cliborns were promoted. But Stelly is like the team mascot, and you really can't argue with the Twins bullpen over the year. So how can you get rid of him?
Peter principle
"Riccardo Ingram, New Britain's manager in 2007, will be hitting coach at Rochester."
So the guy has had the top offensive talent in the system the last two years and his teams have been near the bottom of the EL in hitting. Yet, he's the guy who gets promoted to hitting coach in the IL team (scratches head).
This is like Ulger being the hitting coach all those years. At least he had a track record as a winning minor league manager.
CMath...
by roger on Oct 24, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Never understood.....
Also, Jeff Smith has moved from manager of Beloit to Ft. Myers. And Jake Mauer is manager of the GCL club.
So, what's happening to Rich Miller (Hitting coach Rochester), Kevin Boles (manager Ft. Myers) and IvanArtega (manager GCL). Might be a job in here somewhere for Matt LeCroy.
by twintown on Oct 24, 2007 11:32 AM EDT reply actions
Same old whine in a brand new bottle
The Twins have a third base coach who in three minor league seasons of managing has gone first in the first half, second in the second half; first in the first half, second in the second half; first in the first half, second in the second half.
The Twins also have a guy in the dugout who has coached third and is now the hitting coach. The last five minor league managing seasons of his career saw him go first in the first half, first in the second half; (we'll go shorthand on the rest in the interest of time) first, first; second, first; first, first; second, second.
Many fans want one of those men to take over the Twins. Really bad. Really, really bad.
Now, Internet bulletin boards are around, they just aren't calling them blogs yet. And not every 8-year-old has a computer.
But many fans really, really want either Scott Ullger or Ron Gardenhire to manage the Twins.
And that's in place of a guy who hasn't finised as high as third in the division in years.
Fans rarely get what they want, and Kelly hangs in for three more seasons after '98 is over. Gardenhire takes over. Yelps of joy echo throughout TwinLand. Ullger remains. More yelps of joy.
Fast forward.
Other than the fact Gardenhire has been wildly more successful in his tenure than Tom Kelly was at the end of his (which just means that fan expectations always rise, never fall) some intellects now hate Gardenhire. And Ullger.
Calling for Cuellar and Anderson is no different than what fans were doing a decade ago.
Yawn.
And these are the same fans who will say sports writers and baseball announcers do the same stuff over and over. Originality is hardly a strength of baseball fans, either.
by Firpo Marberry on Oct 24, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions
Logical
What are you saying you would like? Rather than posting a ridiculous troll comment, maybe you should state an alternative opinion. Right now, the opinion is generally, "Cuellar has proven to be a successful coach of young pitchers, as by all accounts his personal coaching of Santana and Liriano has helped make them 2 of the most dominant pitchers in the whole league. We are excited that he is currently in a position where he can coach young players on the team we all cheer for. As this team currently has many young pitchers, perhaps it would be good for him to be in a role where he can continue to coach these players at a major league level, perhaps in tandem with another coach who we feel has done a good job with the major league pitchers. The current manager has shown he is hesitant to give significant playing time to young players, so perhaps a change would be beneficial."
And you say, "same old whine in a new bottle." Thanks for all of your contributions.
by Diggity Dino on Oct 25, 2007 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. Right.
If you think Liriano, who pitched half a season, qualifies as a success story, you're an easy sell. But don't call what you just offered "a contribution."
Santana is who is is because of his ability, not because of Bobby Cuellar.
If Cuellar can turn just a few players into a Cy Young winners, why aren't teams falling over themselves to pay him $10 million to sign with them. Because everyone with baseball knowledge knows Bobby Cuellar just happened to be around when a couple of talented guys showed up, and one of them couldn't stay healty.
Coaches don't make MVPs and Cy Young winners. Talent and work do that. Geezus.
You feel he's done such a great job, then list a dozen pitchers who Cuellar has personally turned into huge winners. I want guys who were nearly nothing and he made them dominant. And I want to know what he did to spark such a metamorphasis in each guy.
And you have to start from scratch. Santana does not qualify for the above conditions. He wasn't some modest talent that Cuellar dinged with a magic wand. But those are the examples I want. Go to it.
>>The current manager has shown he is hesitant to give significant playing time to young players, so perhaps a change would be beneficial."
Details. Don't give me Michael Cuddyer. Cuddyer is playing all the time. Now. He earned it. Back when he was not playing all the time it was because he did not deserve it. No one jerked him around. He was given plenty of chances.
Don't give me Kubel. He was a dog in '06 who wouldn't even do his work, and last year he got the playing time he deserved.
Don't give me Casilla. He was in over his head more often than not last year.
Someone here tossed out this "young guy" stuff a while ago and the shallow thinkers on the board bought into it. It's not true. Prove me wrong.
>>with another coach who we feel has done a good job
Who is "we"? Is this the "we all agree board"? Heck, if that's true, why do you come here? You know what everyone thinks. They think like you. Why would anyone visit a board where everyone thinks like them and doesn't want to hear anything else?
There's only one reason anyone would show up at a place looking for everyone to agree with him: insecurity.
Get to work on the challenges to your assertions about Cueller and Gardenhire now.
by Firpo Marberry on Oct 25, 2007 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Hummmmm
by twintown on Oct 26, 2007 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions
HeeHee
But thanks for the homework assignment.
Chapter 1: Bobby Cuellar.
First, obviously any player who makes the major leagues makes it largely on talent and hard work. However, often, the coaching staff can have an influence on the player's ultimate development, especially in the minor league stages. I guess I didn't realize there was a question as to whether or not coaches can help players become better (not good/great, but better), but lets ask Liriano what he thinks:
"Bobby Cuellar," Liriano said. "He's the man."
"I probably would not be in the big leagues, not yet, without the help from Bobby Cuellar," he said.
So by his personal statement he wouldn't have been in the big leagues last year without Cuellar. True, he only has successfully pitched 1/2 season in the majors thus far (although during that 1/2 season he was significantly better than the man who was the unanimous Cy Young award winner), but he is still young and has had a surgery performed that has become relatively commonplace among major league pitchers and players who have had this surgery have shown to have a very high probability of returning to their pre-surgery levels. It does not seem unreasonable to believe that even if Liriano remains somewhat injury prone throughout his career, he has a good chance to remain an above-league average pitcher throughout his career.
And with regards to Santana, obviously, he is talented and his hard work brought him to where he is today. That said, much of his hard work was developing his top-notch changeup. Where did he learn this changeup? He wasn't born with the ability to throw it. Oh, right, a coach helped teach it to him.
"Bobby told me about throwing different pitches as a starter and having confidence in your changeup," says Santana, 26. "In bullpen sessions, we acted like it was a game situation."
So Santana, who prior to his time working with Cuellar, had an ERA of almost 6 and a K/9 ratio of 6.4, upped that immediately after working with him to an ERA in the low 3s and a K/9 of around 10. True, Santana is where he is because of 1) his talent and 2) his hard work. That said, the hard work he put in was in perfecting what he was taught by Cuellar. The art of pitching is more than pure talent, it is the ability to think out there, change pitches, and know what to throw in each situation. Clearly, by Santana's personal account, Cuellar helped with that aspect of his game. I'm clearly not saying that Cuellar is some magician who can take an untalented schmo like me and make me a Cy Young winner - nobody said that except your strawman argument. The reason Santana's changeup is so effective is because he has the talent to throw it 95, and the changeup comes off so much slower. But that effective pitch was taught to him by Cuellar.
Chapter 2: Gardenhire.
First off, can I tell you how funny it is when you say, don't give me example A, B, or C, but prove your case.
The complaints about Gardy state from his inconsistent treatment of rookies/young players when compared to veterans. Players like Castro/Batista last year, and players like Ortiz/Ponson/Punto this year are given multiple opportunites to fail, and often do. However, young players with excellent track records in the minors are given one immediate shot, and if they struggle (like 90+% of minore leaguers are prone to do during their first shot at the pros), they are given inconsistent playing time. Examples, you say?
- Cuddyer. You say he wasn't jerked around. But how much consistent playing time did he get at 1 position? Even at the beginning of 2006 he wasn't getting to play everyday. Once he got in the lineup everyday, he performed well.
- Kubel. I'm not using your example of 2006 Kubel. I'm using 2007 Kubel, when he was clearly one of the Twins top 4 hitters but only got to play 3 times per week, being benched for the likes of Rondell White, Jason Tyner, and Lew Ford. It was only at the very end of the season that he got regular playing time.
- Casilla. Yeah, he sucked when he got to play. However, even in September after the Twins were mathematically eliminated, Gardy played Punto rather than Casilla. You tell me if it is better for a player's development to sit on the bench or to actually get some playing time. I'm not too concerned about this example either way, but it will probably be one you refer to in the future.
- Bartlett. Even though he hit .382/.441/.500 in spring training, and showed great bat ability in his minor league career, Gardy played Castro over him to start the season. What evidence was there that Castro would perform better than Bartlett?
- Baker. When he was first called up, he kept being skipped over for starts, often going 8 or 9 days between starts. When he got regular turns in the rotation this year, his stats became much more consistent with those most people expected based on his minor league numbers.
Extra Credit: The "we" comment. Perhaps I should have used "many Twins fans" instead of "we" but the point still stands. Good work arguing the semantics of 1 word rather than the point itself.
Thanks for the opportunity for me to respond - it helps out with my insecurity.
by Diggity Dino on Oct 26, 2007 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Great job
Seconded...
Not that it's hard to refute these obviously ridiculous rantings at this point.
by djskilbr on Oct 26, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Time for a schoolin'
Let's review:
>>>Cuddyer. You say he wasn't jerked around. But how much consistent playing time did he get at 1 position? Even at the beginning of 2006 he wasn't getting to play everyday. Once he got in the lineup everyday, he performed well.
Michael Cuddyer received 41 starts after his callup in 2002. Gardenhire promptly put THE ROOKIE, A SPECIES THAT YOU CLAIM GARDENHIRE WILL NOT PLAY in right field for all five games of the 2002 ALDS and the first two games of the 2002 ALCS, until he misplayed two balls in right field. That was the end of his ALCS starts.
Gardenhire was fiercely loyal to Cuddyer to a fault from the start, and Cuddyer played himself back to the minor leagues, also scuffled because of injuries, and later because he let his play at third base affect his batting.
After Jones and Stewart left, which cleared a spot in the outfield for him, he was given the job in spring training of 2006. He exited camp with a nagging injury which meant that GUESS WHO? ROOKIE JASON KUBEL started the season in RF. Yup, one of those youngsters whom you claim Gardy will not play.
Gardy played lefty-righty in the '06 opener and put Kubel out there against Halliday. Kubel, overmatched against this type of pitcher, took an oh-fer.
Gardenhire eased Cuddyer in, but Cuddyer started 2-for-16 because of the injury. Healed by the end of April, Cuddyer, played 150 games in 2006, despite your contention Gardie dissed him.
>>>Kubel. I'm not using your example of 2006 Kubel. I'm using 2007 Kubel, when he was clearly one of the Twins top 4 hitters but only got to play 3 times per week, being benched for the likes of Rondell White, Jason Tyner, and Lew Ford. It was only at the very end of the season that he got regular playing time.
An utter lie. Too bad your pals on this board just swallow all this crap.
Kubel played 8 of every 10 games this year. 128 of 162. He didn't play more for two reasons:
- knees
- good lefties.
They protect him.
How many times do the Twins play Cleveland and Chicago? How many ABs did Kubel have against two of the league's toughest lefties, Buehrle and Sabathia? Answer: zero.
Bedard? Zero
Kazmir? Zero
Against good righties such as Wakefield, Halliday, Haren, Kubel was hitless in '07
Like you, the boy's got some learnin' to do, and Gardy is trying to help him. I'm trying to help you.
In the big Sept. 14-16 series vs. Detroit, when the Twins needed Kubel to step up and produce, he was 1-for-11 with Nate Robertson, Yorman Bazardo and Jair Jurjens starting. That's not exactly great pitching.
After that series, he went on a 14-for-34 run. He needs to pick it up for the big series, not cave.
This is the kind of stuff you miss because you're so in love with the notion you know more than Gardenhire does.
There's more, but you might want to call it a day right now.
>>Casilla. Yeah, he sucked when he got to play. However, even in September after the Twins were mathematically eliminated, Gardy played Punto rather than Casilla. You tell me if it is better for a player's development to sit on the bench or to actually get some playing time.
I'm not too concerned with it, either, particularly being the minor league season was over and sending Casilla out was no option.
For those scoring at home, Casilla played 27 of the Twins' games in August. He played himself out of the lineup, but still was in 14 of 27 in September. That's hardly spectating. He had at least three plate appearances in all of those games save for 4.
Next time, before you tell us Kubel played 3 times a week and that Casilla's development was hampered by sitting on the bench, do some research. I don't particularly care how you think you recall the season, we deal with reality in these discussions. Back it up, or don't bother to make the statement. Got it?
>>> Bartlett. Even though he hit .382/.441/.500 in spring training, and showed great bat ability in his minor league career, Gardy played Castro over him to start the season. What evidence was there that Castro would perform better than Bartlett?
". . .showed great bat ability in his minor league career" This is one of those worthless phrases guys like you, who won't do any research and don't understand the game, love to toss out.
You can not even support that statement about Bartlett unless you watched him throughout his minor league career. His fielding, problematic throughout the minors, was awful in '07, with 26 errors (and many more misplays) in 138 games, yet Gardenhire stuck with him.
Bartlett's FA and RF in 2006 were Juan Castro-like. So playing him gave the Twins' no edge defensively.
Out of '06 spring training, it was clear Bartlett was not prepared for a big-league job. I saw him down there. Bartlett had an awful '07 spring, both in the field and at the plate. I was there. He stunk.
Spanning September 1, 2006, including the post-season, Jason Bartlett's offense was worse than Juan Castro's during Castro's 2006 tenure in Minnesota. Bartlett went 29-for-131 with three extra base hits in that span. He was just dreadful. Stink. Crap.
Castro had 156 ABs with the Twins in 2006 and batted .231 with 8 extra base hits, and guys like you were all over Castro. Bartlett had a worse September than that and you wonder why Gardenhire coddles the guy? And keep in mind, September 2006 was a big chunk of Bartlett's playing time. His hot start, fueld by Gardenhire's refusal to simply hand him a job, got doused big time in September of 2006.
Then 2007 spring training rolled around and Bartlett had 44 ABs with two extra base hits. This was against AA, AAA pitching and established pitchers who go into games working on pitches, so you might see someone like Santana throw 80 percent changeups. Bartlett still couldn't whack that stuff.
After a really rough end of 2006, Bartlett carried that Juan Castro-like offense into early 2007. It was looking like his half-season in '06 might be his best. Now, it appears Bartlett might be OK. He's a smart kid who will learn to go to right field more. He's got some gap power. But coddling this guy was required. He's the player he is now because the Twins nursed him along.
Too many people who don't understand baseball see a player break out and decide he should have played more when he was younger. Should have been brought up earlier. Hey. Did you ever think maybe he would not have ever broken out without that careful use?
Naw. Not guys like you.
>>>Baker. When he was first called up, he kept being skipped over for starts, often going 8 or 9 days between starts. When he got regular turns in the rotation this year, his stats became much more consistent with those most people expected based on his minor league numbers.
Pure fiction.
Here's the truth: When Baker was recalled he was not skipped over for starts. Start putting some effort into this or don't bother to respond. Do you even watch these games or do you just sit around and find someone to gripe to about Gardenhire?
Bake came up May 19, pitched 8 1/3 and had a 2.16 ERA after stinking up the place in spring training. He had to prove himself, just like any big-league pitcher who had a terrible 2006 and played himself out of the picture in 2007 spring training.
Gardenhire and the Twins stuck with him early in '07, giving him four starts without ever skipping him in the rotation. How did Baker respond? His ERA went from 2.16 after his first start to 6.45.
Finally, after the Angels hammered him for five runs in five innings he did not start in the big leagues for 10 days. He then started on June 15, 20, 26, July 1, 6, 12. Then the All-Star break came, and I suspect even you would at that point no longer consider this to be "when he was first called up."
The only reason Baker missed those 10 days was he pitched himself out of the rotation with awful starts, one of which saw him pitch two innings.
Mostly, your other assessments here were misconceptions sprinkled with inaccuracy and lack of research. Your Baker assessment is completely inaccurate, and your comment stating "his stats became much more consistent with those most people expected based on his minor league numbers" is completely fabricated.
Checkmate.
by Firpo Marberry on Oct 27, 2007 3:42 AM EDT up reply actions
GiggleSnort
Umm...
by djskilbr on Oct 24, 2007 11:41 PM EDT reply actions
Kelly's Management
Just my opinion of course...
Gardy is one of the worst I've ever seen in that regard. He's cost us at least 1 postseason series IMO. I will never forget 2004 against the Yanks.
by djskilbr on Oct 25, 2007 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I concur
Gardy learned everything he knows about managing from Kelly. But a lot of it didn't stick. He still manages a bullpen well, as long as he has enough arms out there to keep everyone fresh (unlike 2007). But he bunts a lot more, and his line-ups certainly don't maximize the talent on the roster. And he has this odd aversion to pinch hitting for punchless players.
Oh and Firpo, put me down as one guy who did not want either Gardy or Ulger. I thought they were decent coaches. I thought Gardy was a good third base coach and Ulger would make a decent bench coach. But I didn't want to see either of them pulling strings. I wanted Molitor, and TR passed on him. Barring that, I thought Al Newman or Ron Washington would make a good manager.
Well said, CMath...
by djskilbr on Oct 25, 2007 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions
You blurred it
However, here's where your argument falls apart: Gardenhire has had more talented teams across the board than Kelly, but he never had any team with the talent of the '91 team. Nothing close.
The nucleus of the '87 team was also better than anything Gardenhire has had.
Unfortunately, you make the mistake of tossing the '87 and '91 teams in with the Ron Coomer-type teams and then trying to make the point that Kelly won despite not having talent. This, of course, is simply not true.
Big holes in your position. See them? Good.
News bulletin for you: When Kelly had the talent, he won. When he didn't, he lost.
Hey. Just like Gardy.
by Firpo Marberry on Oct 25, 2007 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
What is the issue then
"News bulletin for you: When Kelly had the talent, he won. When he didn't, he lost."
This would seem to imply that you believe that managers have very little impact on whether a team wins or loses, and that the success of the team is based on the team's overall talent level (I would agree with this statement). If this is true, then either:
1) You think that Gardy and Kelly are upper-tier managers, and replacing them with someone like Anderson or Cuellar would be lowering the quality of the team's manager.
or
2) You think that the difference between the two is probably minute given the small amount of influence a manager plays, and are simply picking arguments on this board because you are a troll.
Which is it? And if it is number 1, please provide your evidence of such a fact, immediately after saying, when he didn't have the talent he lost.
by Diggity Dino on Oct 26, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow, awful...
I won't even both responding to the post above, as it's complete garbage.
by djskilbr on Oct 26, 2007 1:24 AM EDT reply actions

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