RonDL is Back!

by Chaddens on Jul 22, 2007 7:41 PM EDT Comment 48 comments

Yea. I'm ecstatic :| accorindg to ESPN, the Twins sent out Jones and called up Rondell White

What kind of difference can RonDL make this year? Torii seems to think he is a savior and it will be someone to protect him in the lineup - is that a rip on Kubel?

How long until RonDL gets injured again? I put the over/under on 3 weeks. Luckily, he cannot do any worse than Garret Jones did - unfortunately, his at bats will come at the cost of (most likely) Kubel.

Can RonDL or Kubel play right while Cuddyers is out? Kubel and his arm seem like a more natural fit in right... McDonald sure doesn't seem to be anything special.

So your thoughts - what happens - what kind of stats does RonDL put up? Will the team play better? Does this mean the Twins are not buyers since they have a "left fielder"?

Poll

RonDL's impact

Torii is much happier; ends up with 40 HRs

3 votes

RonDL goes on the DL within 3 weeks

24 votes

Kubel gets pissed off with lack of playing time, hits 5 HR in a week

2 votes

Terry Ryan gets fired for basing success of season on RonDL

1 votes

Team still inconsistent, finishes 7GB in Wild Card

24 votes

54 votes | Poll has closed

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Comments

Jones back to AAA

WHY????

I'd much rather have him in RF than McDonald who looks like he belongs in New Britian instead of Rochester and no way in Minnesota.

As for RonDL, I hope he is ready to play b/c the team really needs him. I think it would be great to have him in LF and Kubel in RF at least that would increase the power (potential) of the lineup.

by caluofmn on Jul 22, 2007 8:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Jones?

McDonald has had a grand total of 2 games and 5 ABs. Pretty dang quick to be advocating throwing him back to the minors in favor of Garrett Jones, who has been horrendous in his own right:

.160 avg/.250 obp/.280 slg (10 games, 25 ABs)

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Jul 22, 2007 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm wondering

How many outfielders the Twins can continue to justify being on their 25-man roster? McDonald/Cuddyer, Hunter, Kubel, Tyner, Ford, White. Doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me to be carrying 6 outfielders. White will apparently "DH until he feels good enough to play the field" according to Gardy, but we all know we will see him in left field long before we want to, which would be never for most of us.

Seems to me it would be better to replace one of the redundant Tyner/Ford with another infielder, such as Buscher or Tolbert. Who knows, maybe if one of them hit at 3rd we could finally rid ourselves of Nicholas Punto (if Gardy got blasted by some sort of common sense ray).

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Jul 22, 2007 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Given that Jones just got sent down...

...I think that the Twins are considering Rondell strictly as a DH this time around. Jones did get that one start in the outfield, but he has no business playing there--his defense is just as inadequate as McDonald's offense.

RF should be a Tyner/Ford platoon until Cuddyer gets back. Then Rondell DHs and McDonald is on the bench in case there is a defensive emergency in the OF (however unlikely that may be.) Unless they make a significant trade, there's nothing really better they can do with the 25th spot in the roster--you're never going to want to put a 12th pitcher or extra backup infielder in a meaningful situation, so with the parts they have on hand, I don't mind seeing Jones sent down.

by ubelmann on Jul 22, 2007 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

common sense ray

I like that. I think we all should demand regular common sense ray blastings as part of universal health care.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Pinella

by natetheskate on Jul 22, 2007 9:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Universal Health Care?

Keep dreaming. I think I read the other day that our bloated "free-market" approach is approximately 16% of the American economy. Who would hire all those paper pushers who deny coverage for cancer patients because they are "too young" to get the disease?

Which is more likely? The "promise" of Joe Mauer hitting 25 homers a year or the "promise" of universal health care?

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

RonDL

might be a good case in the argument against universal health care because his hamstring would eat up 25% of the budget.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

at Kubel's expense

I'm sure you're right, since Gardy seems to latch onto any excuse he can to deny Kubel playing time. What has the man done to entrench himself so firmly in the doghouse? Gardy even threw him under the bus the other day, giving that quote about how watching strike three isn't what he likes to see.

Interesting bit in Gleeman's recent post about watching strike 3, though...Kubel does that way way way more often than anyone else on the team.

by ravenfly on Jul 23, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't do it...

...that much more than Punto, who of course, can do no wrong.

by ubelmann on Jul 23, 2007 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel

seems to embody the split among Twins fans on Gardy. IMHO, I think critics of Gardy go way too far in blaming him for Kubel's struggles. It is almost as if Gardy is at the plate rather than Kubel. And Jason is a big boy, if he can't take criticism he should go be a star in the Northern League.

I think Kubel will come around. The Twins will show a ton of patience with him for one thing, patience a lot of other contending clubs would not.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or maybe...

...we saw this saga play out once before regarding Michael Cuddyer. Amongst Ford, Tyner, and Kubel, Kubel is the only player who has a real future with this team. And even struggling the way he has been, he hasn't been any worse than those guys.

Kubel's troubles aren't Gardy's fault. That Gardenhire hasn't been putting his best players on the field is his fault.

(I would also mention that Gardy has invented a problem for Kubel (much worse against LHP than RHP) that doesn't actually exist and never has existed.)

by ubelmann on Jul 23, 2007 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree to some extent

Although Punto at third and Tyner at DH is also a Terry Ryan problem.

And as far as Kubel's playing time goes, with his knees on turf he is going to need more time off than your average 25-year old.

One could also turn it around and say that if Gardy "jerked around" Morneau and Cuddyer they sure don't show much lasting "damage" from those years of abuse. In fact, legend has it that when Gardy finally ripped young Justin a new one in Seattle he turned things around (although I doubt the veracity how much this tongue-lashing contributed to this sudden 180 degree turnaround). In fact, the Twins found a way to win division titles while they were mistreating their prospects.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't mind Gardy having stern words...

...with his players. That's fine. In fact, I wish Gardy would just do that rather than limit the playing time of his most promising hitters.

I don't think the emphasis should be so much on how Gardy skewed their development so much as he has put them on the bench in favor of inferior hitters who haven't shown anything. Gardy ought to be doing a better job identifying who his best hitters are than he has been.

by ubelmann on Jul 23, 2007 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

stern words

I don't have any kind of issue with a manager having some things to say to his players. That's obviously his prerogative. The problem I have is when Gardy makes disparaging comments to the media about a promising young player with confidence issues.

by ravenfly on Jul 23, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You can't

say it any better than that, ubelmann.

Kubel needs to play every day, simple as that. He's clearly the 5th best hitter or so on the entire team.

by djskilbr on Jul 23, 2007 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll see that and raise you

He needs to play EVERY INNING of EVERY GAME on TURF with TWO bad knees. In fact, I hope every game goes extra innings so he can get more playing time.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

WPA

On July 17 Gleeman posted a adjusted Win Probability Added (WPA) update that attempted to measure how much impact each play had on the outcome of a game and assigns that value to the players responsible. I really have no idea what this stat is about, but I assume it is not complete bullshit. Coming in dead last for the Twins in adjusted WPA, even behind Little Nickie, is Jason Kubel at -1.85. Kubel has potential to be the 5th best hitter on this team perhaps, but according to this metric he has completely sucked this year. I was quite surprised, actually.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

July 20

You conveniently left out the July 20 entry where Kubel is the 2nd best hitter in WPA.

Are you going to add anything interesting or insightful to this thread, or are you just going to keep the snarkiness going?

by TheMattWilke on Jul 23, 2007 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that entry

was just for the three game series against Detroit. I'm no stats expert, but that is a pretty small sample size.

And I'm sorry, but I could not resist responding to a post that blamed Gardy 100% for a player's struggles. As Ron Burgandy would say, "That's just dumb." I actually assumed you were being snarky.

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How?

When you mess around with a player's comfort and at bats, the numbers suffer. That's not dumb, that's how it is.

Look at Hrbek's later years, Cuddyer's early years, Morneau, and any player subject to extreme platooning. The numbers match up.

by TheMattWilke on Jul 24, 2007 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel's Troubles= Gardy's Fault

Ubelmann, I agree with everything else you said. But skimming through Kent Hrbek's memoirs, he mentions how bad platooning is for your head as he still hasn't seemed to forgive TK yet for over-platooning him post '92. If you take away a hitter's daily routine, you're hurting the hitter's chances of finding a rhythm. We saw it with Morneau and Cuddyer in 05, and Gardy's making the same mistake with Kubel's head here.

Kubel not being an impact player this year is entirely on Gardy.

by TheMattWilke on Jul 23, 2007 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I still can't get over...

that Gardy is platooning Kubel this year even though he never platooned JACQUE FREAKING JONES of all people!

by djskilbr on Jul 23, 2007 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can I hire you?

TheMattWilke-
Can I hire you as my public relations man? The next time I go 0-4 with three strikeouts I need someone like you to shift the blame off of me. My manager did once make a snarky comment about my lack of speed. Another time I got benched when I was slumping, and I have not recovered mentally yet. Either way, my struggles at the plate are certainly not my fault. My success in softball depends on your version of truthiness.
Sincerely,
Wcooley

by wcooley on Jul 23, 2007 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel

He's clearly the 5th best hitter or so on the entire team.

No, he clearly isn't. Its clear he is at best the 5th best hitter on the team and that is doubtful. Mauer, Morneau, Hunter and Cuddyer are all better than him. So is White, since he is now back. Castillo is a better hitter as well, although he is not a middle of the order guy. Cirillo is likely better, but he isn't going to be out there every day for us to find out.

Kubel is likely a better hitter than Bartlett, Ford, Tyner and Washington. But on any given day each of those guys might be a better bet against a specific pitcher. Kubel is definitely better than Punto or Rodriquez. But that is pretty faint praise for a corner outfielder with limited defensive range.

What Kubel does have is potential. Over the next couple months he has the potential to be in the top group. But in a pennant race you play your best players now, not the ones who will be the best in a couple years. So if Kubel is going to play every day, he can't take three straight fastballs for strikes with guys on base. That isn't major league hitting, no matter who is on the mound.

by TT on Jul 23, 2007 5:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Washington

Talk about brain cramps. Washington should be McDonald in the above post.

by TT on Jul 23, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel is a better hitter...

than Castillo at this point, he of only infield singles variety. I'd take Bartlett over Castillo now too. But you add in Kubel's power ability and I think he's clearly the 5th best hitter on the team now, behind Morneau, Mauer, Hunter, and Cuddyer, in that order.

by djskilbr on Jul 23, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bartlett versus Castillo

I'd take Bartlett over Castillo now too.

If you mean over the last week or two, then sure but for July so far:

Castillo .317 .386 .413
Bartlett .268 .310 .354

You add in Kubel's power ability

Kubel has 8 home runs. He clearly has more power than Castillo, but not enough to hit anywhere near the middle of the order.

But those two evaluations show how a couple recent games can completely skew an evaluation of players.

by TT on Jul 23, 2007 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it is enough...

to overcome Castillo. And Bartlett, after the first few weeks of the season, is better than Castillo as well.

I might also add that I really believe a lot of hitting AND pitching is "luck" because hey, this is a game of inches. Clearly Kubel has been as unlucky as anyone in baseball this year. His being 2nd in the AL in line drive percentage (with Bartlett not far behind) goes towards showing that.

by djskilbr on Jul 24, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

His being 2nd in the AL in line drive percentage (with Bartlett not far behind) goes towards showing that.

It doesn't show anything other than they both needed some harder hit balls, line drives or not.

Bartlett, after the first few weeks of the season, is better than Castillo as well.

Bartlett hit .239 in April, he got his average all the way up to .243 in May. He hit .298 in June and is back down to .254 in July. The only month he was better than Castillo was June.

by TT on Jul 24, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Even "not playing well"

by all of our standards for him, Kubel is 5th on the Twins in OPS among regular players (ie not Cirillo/Santana). There, 5th best.

by djskilbr on Jul 24, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Lol

"So is White, since he is now back."

One of the funniest things I've ever read. White finished last year with a .246 average and .641 OPS. Kubel is better than that. Also, White can't really be considered a hitter for this team until he stays healthy long enough to actually matter.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Jul 23, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I totally

I agree with all of that. But it is very important that you noted Ford, Tyner, and McDonald as 3 guys Kubel is DEFINITELY better than. Annoyingly enough, two of those guys are stealing loads of playing time from Kubel for no reason. He is the better hitter now among our options AND has the most potential. There is no excuse for him to be only skipping the occasional off day, and maybe day games after night games when on turf.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 23, 2007 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Short-term potential

But in a pennant race you play your best players now, not the ones who will be the best in a couple years.

Kubel not only has the potential to be a good hitter two years from now, but he also has the potential to be a good hitter right-now-this-very-moment. Kubel's been at least as good as Tyner and Ford so far this season. So while he's been struggling, he's just as good as those guys, which makes him the best option available to Gardy. Maybe Kubel improves and maybe he doesn't, but we know that Ford and Tyner aren't going to improve.

by ubelmann on Jul 23, 2007 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good hitters

White finished last year with a .246 average and .641 OPS.

Who cares? That isn't the way he hit over the last half of the season.

than Castillo at this point, he of only infield singles variety.

I don't think that is true. He does more than that when its called for.
If all you need to do is get on base and infield hit is the same as any other hit
Castillo's job is to get on base, Kubel's is to advance runners and drive in runs. Castillo has been doing his job a lot better than Kubel does his.

by TT on Jul 23, 2007 6:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Last half of the season

"White finished last year with a .246 average and .641 OPS."

Who cares? That isn't the way he hit over the last half of the season.

I don't know if you can say the last half of last year is how RonDL will hit. Beginning of last year, he had some lingering injuries. As a result we had a craptacular LF/DH (sound familiar?). There are some issues I have with relying on his 2nd half results...
1) He's a year older
2) Already has fragile body.
3) Last time he saw extensive action was over 8 months ago.

To count on positive results, in my opinion, is not a good idea. He probably has it in the tank to hit well barring injury. But 2 things will happen at some point. Another injury and all his injuries catching up with him. To me this is more likely to happen sooner rather than later.

Here's to hoping I'm wrong though.

by GACTwinFan on Jul 23, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ignoring whites

To count on positive results, in my opinion, is not a good idea.

I don't disagree with that. The last time he played, he was a better hitter than Kubel is now. We are just going to have to wait and see what he can still do.

by TT on Jul 24, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel and Kielty

Reading everyone coming to Kubel's defense made me wonder how many of you were saying similar things about Kielty when he got traded to Toronto?

I mean people were acting like the Twins were trading the second coming of Mantle or something. And lets face it he has proven to be less than that and less than an everyday OF.

I do think Kubel has potential to be a solid player and he needs innings to prove that but he takes too many at bats off where he seems to just stare at the ball going by him. I still remember him swinging like he wanted to hit a pinata during the playoffs vs NY but at least he took the bat off his shoulder.

With Cuddyer hurt and RonDL not wanting to play the field yet I'd like to see Kubel play LF as much as possible. Let's see if he really can do it but so far he still has alot to prove.

by caluofmn on Jul 23, 2007 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

He had

That isn't fair. He'd been in the major leagues for less than a month than and was brought in to face Marniano Rivera. Not a recipe for success.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 23, 2007 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Very true

and in this context it was a back handed compliment but what I wanted to get at was that even in that situation he was a "hitter" swinging the bat.

now he takes alot of pitches, alot of them and while I'm not a hitting coach I'll play one on the internet. If you don't swing the bat, I promise you, you won't get a hit.

One the one hand he has all this potential but on the other if he's not going to swing at pitches it won't matter how many games he plays.

Kubel needs to swing and let his god given talent either prove he's the hitter we think he is or not.

But he will always be Pinata Boy to me and my friends.

by caluofmn on Jul 23, 2007 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Kubel, Tyner, Ford

Kubel's been at least as good as Tyner and Ford so far this season.

And he has more at bats than those two combined. Both of them get on base more often and Tyner has a 25 point advantage in batting average. And I think both Tyner and Ford, for all their faults, are still better defensive players and more likely to take quality at bats in tough situations.

Reading everyone coming to Kubel's defense made me wonder how many of you were saying similar things about Kielty when he got traded to Toronto?

Kielty never really had Kubel's potential. He got hot a couple times and stat-freaks didn't notice the league had caught up with him.

Kubel will get his chances. But he can't go a couple weeks with his bat on the shoulder and make up for it with a couple good games.

by TT on Jul 23, 2007 7:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think

I think we generally agree on Kubel actually. I understand what you are saying that you think people are blaming Gardenhire with Kubel's struggles too much or that Kubel needs confidence to succeed. I think he needs confidence, but only so much that he doesn't have to fear for his job at all times, whether that be in the starting lineup or on the roster.

Really, I see this much like Cuddyer's old story. Yeah, Cuddyer never did much in his time, or at least wasn't consistent, but he was in a tough situation with his playing time. he himself said what made him more able to hit well was knowing where he was going to play every night and that he was playing. Gardenhire has oft' incorrectly interpreted this, or things like this in such ways, that that means Cuddyer just was comfortable in RF and that's why he could hit. Cuddyer didn't really say that at all, he just said he was comfortable because he got to be in the lineup everyday, and, better yet, in the same position. It isn't totally Gardenhire's fault that Kubel isn't kicking off, but as a manager, Gardenhire should be trying to help Kubel along a bit and make the already difficult jump to the majors a little easier.

Not to mention Ford and Tyner being wholly unspectacular anyway.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 24, 2007 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Major League Standards

That isn't fair. He'd been in the major leagues for less than a month than and was brought in to face Marniano Rivera. Not a recipe for success.

What is unfair about it? He was on a major league roster and that is the standard he should be judged by. The only question is whether he would do any better today.

by TT on Jul 24, 2007 12:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Just to be "snarky"

No not better, just different like watching 3 fastballs going by him.

That was a tough spot for Kubel but he made the playoff roster for a reason.

Sorry for my trying to be snarky I was going for being funny

by caluofmn on Jul 24, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

well I guess we know RonDL is not enough

the question for me is there any player out there that would be enough to make the Twins a contender again?

by caluofmn on Jul 25, 2007 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not that we can get

A swap of Punto for A-Rod might get it done though.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Jul 25, 2007 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Get TR on the phone

We're all depending on you to convince TR that Arod is better than Punto.

by caluofmn on Jul 25, 2007 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm on it

He's not picking up though. I think he's screening his calls. I left him a few voicemails informing him that Alex Rodriguez is a good baseball player, while Punto is not as good. I suspect he'll appreciate this insider information.

Seriously though, that was the most lop-sided 2 player trade I could think of, so I mentioned it as the only trade able to save the Twins' season. Sadly, I was only partially joking.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Jul 26, 2007 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Contender

I don't think any one player is going to transform the Twins. To contend they need their pitching to settle down and for The heart of the order to produce. That means Kubel and White, Baker, Silva and Garza all have to step up. Its unlikely, but not impossible.

by TT on Jul 25, 2007 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs