Deadline fallout in the clubhouse

by rayken on Aug 1, 2007 1:15 AM EDT Comment 33 comments

Bodes well for us after next year, eh?

Terry Ryan says in that article that he purposely avoids reading/hearing comments from players regarding his deals, especially the recent salary dump known as the Luis Castillo trade. Somehow I think he's going to hear about these comments one way or another, and if he wants to keep the torches and pitchforks away from the Metrodome, he should probably think about how to remedy the situation immediately.

As people have pointed out already, Santana is not a loudmouth. He generally praises the organization or remains indifferent when the media pokes around for a sound byte. This leads me to believe that he has some very harsh words about upper management when there aren't reporters around to write it down, since he volunteered his opinion today. I'm sure letting Hunter walk in the off-season will signal to Johan that the team is really committed to winning with him here!

I'm glad he said it though. Maybe it will finally get through to Ryan if the best pitcher in baseball says it publicly...but I doubt it.

0 recs | Comment 33 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Keeping Veterans

I don't think this was as much of a salary dump or a selling move as a lot of people think. The gut reaction most lay Twins fans have is that the team is folding. The reality is that the Twins got a couple of prospects (OK, only one real prospect) for an aging middle infielder who won't be with the team next year anyway.

Weather people want to admit it or not, Castillo was wearing down. It happened toward the end of last season, and it was happening again this year. He's also likely to hit a wall soon when his speed leaves him and have a huge drop-off in production. Alexi Casilla is raw, but much more exciting. His defense is just as good (better range), and he'll likely be about as productive at the plate and on the bases in the final 2 months of the season. Add in the fact that he's probably going to be better next season because of his call-up, and the trade seems like a lateral move.

As far as showing the players (including Santana) that the organization is serious about winning, I can think of nothing better then re-signing Hunter. Without even a passable option to replace him next year, re-signing Hunter might just be more important to the Twins then re-signing Santana. Plus, you'd know that you will have them both for 2008. Judging by Santana's comments, it might also be an important step towards convincing Johan that this franchise will commit to winning.

-Flip

by Flip27 on Aug 1, 2007 2:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The Spring Blues......

I have heard it mroe than once from the Gardy camp...we can't start the season with rookies.

Well, come the spring of '08...Baker, Garza, Bonser will no longer be rookies (or Neshek, for that matter). All will have been players participating in a playoff push with ample time to experience some ups and downs in the major elagues.

Come the spring of '08, Alexi Casilla will no longer be a rookie. So coming out of camp with him at second base will not be a test, but the real thing (unless he tanks for the remainder of this season).

If the Twins can rid themselves of Rincon or Ortiz and allow that odd bullpen spot to become a testing spot for the alst two months of the season, they could very well start the '08 season with a tried and tested non-rookie (and cheap guy) to fill that 6th bullpen spot, or at least until Jesse Crain comes back.

Is there anyone else the Twins should be looking at? Tolbert instead of Rodriguez, by chance? Could promoting Span to be the occasional 5th outfielder be a better deal than running Ford out there every other day with Tyner and Kubel splitting the DH duties (ugh). Rondell White is not the future and should be gone. Hopefully he will be gone before September 1 and the Twins can get a good look at Span.

Just wish there was a bit mroe power than double/K king Garrett Jones in the system right now.

But the Twins in '08 will have so many "rookies" not being rookies, that I don't suspect that Gardy can complain about anything...escept that he may have one or two on the bench.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Aug 1, 2007 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd definitely try...

to unload Ortiz now (through waivers) and let Korecky or another guy get a shot at the pen.

by djskilbr on Aug 1, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

If we're dumping salary, why has Ortiz been making money for this long? Let someone else pay him...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 1, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Realism

I'd be shocked if Ortiz was claimed off waivers, and honestly, I can't imagine another team giving up anything of value (even minor league roster filler) without insisting the Twins picking up at least some of his salary, so there's no savings.

No team in contention wants a starter with an ERA well over 5, and any team out of contention would probably just as soon pay a AAAA guy the minimum to do that. As a reliever, he's even less valuable, as he's not a lefty and doesn't look like he's all that trustworthy in high-leverage innings.

by BeefMaster on Aug 1, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I completely agree...

At this point, Ortiz is a wasted roster spot. Even if you throw out the money he's making, the only time the Twins trust him in a game is in a blowout. If it's close, you won't see Ortiz. His only job is to keep the rest of the bullpen from being over-taxed, and that's something that any reject/undertalented pitcher can do. If we give some other fringe major league pitcher a try, maybe we'll get lucky and find another Tony Fiorre (someone who will have one decent year).

-Flip

by Flip27 on Aug 1, 2007 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mopup pitchers

s only job is to keep the rest of the bullpen from being over-taxed, and that's something that any reject/undertalented pitcher can do.

Do you watch much baseball? Because I see reject/undertalented pitchers, or just young inexperienced ones, not be able to get out of an inning. Ortiz is doing that job and the rest of the pitching staff is better for it.

Since June 15th, Ortiz has not given up more than 2 runs in a game and has pitched 14.1 IP and given up 5 ER which is a 3.14 ERA. It doesn't really mean much, but its plausible that a contending team that is desperate enough would take a flyer on him having another month like May. If one of the Twins starters goes down I would not be surprised to see them use him in that role. Slowey certainly didn't show he was ready.

by TT on Aug 1, 2007 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sunk Costs

I wasn't claiming that the Twins should just cut Ortiz; I was merely saying that they can't just trade him somewhere to get him off the books. They have to pay Ortiz anyway, so as long as that's the case, and he can successfully complete those mop-up innings (as TT pointed out, he's doing quite well, as mop-up men go, and at this point I don't trust him any less in a key situation than Rincon), there's no sense in paying someone else $300k on top of what Ortiz is making to do the same job, just likely not as well.

by BeefMaster on Aug 2, 2007 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's the Mop

Is it Rincon? Is it Ortiz? Neither can be trusted with a minimal lead. We don't need two of them.

But who9 do we have that we can trust? I say give Cali or Miller another shot each to see if their one outing was mainly a fluke.

Rincon has not had flukes...he's just outright bad.

Talk about bad bullpen management in Wednesday's game. "Okay, gang, no game Thursday, so let's try to get everyone in." "What, Guerrier uncorked a wild one?" Shoot...we can't use Nathan again for an inning or two of needless ball. So it's Rincon...or Ortiz.

And then, to try and tie the game, you send up Punto, Casila, Tyner and Bartlett. Except for Homer Tyner, not one is regularly capable of getting it out of the infield.

Where's the bench? The Big Bopper swinging the bat...or, yes. we had line-drive Redmond and Rodriguez. White didn't take batting practice cause he ahd most of the day off. And Cirillo is still recovering from stretching a ground out into a double.

Help!

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Aug 2, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mops and set-up guys

As long as the Twins are paying Ortiz, he should be the Mop. The guys in Rochester don't lose anything for staying down there an extra month. Next year, the Mop will probably be Perkins or Slowey.

The problem is, the Twins are short one set-up guy as long as Rincon continues to pitch like this. Even after the Twins had five starts in a row with seven or more innings, the Twins still found themselves in a situation with Rincon on the mound in a tie game in extra innings.

Part of that is on Gardy. He used three relievers in one inning. If he had just stuck with Neshek, he could have saved Reyes and Guerrier for extras. Anyone noticed that Neshek has been human lately?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I kind of agree...

but next year we should be fine in the pen. Crain should be back to at least close to normal by June or so I bet, and that will go a long way. And I also expect someone from the minors (Korecky or even Mijares with a big jump) to help out, plus Slowey or Perkins should be a big boost there. Heck, if no trades are made of those 2, we might have BOTH in the pen next year. Or Boof.

by djskilbr on Aug 2, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not certain...

...we can count on Korecky or Mijares. Korecky has had lots of scarry saves and Mijares must cut down on his walks.

by roger on Aug 2, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nathan

Anyone noticed that Neshek has been human lately?

I suspect Gardy has. With today off, I didn't understand why Nathan wasn't out there before Rincon.

I think the Twins are still hoping to get Rincon righted. His problem is that he is catching too much of the plate. That is correctable.

As for next year. I agree with Roger. The idea that any of the minor league arms are ready is questionable. They might be, but they are going to need some time to adjust to the big leagues. If Silva comes back, they may be able to move one of their starting prospects to the pen. But I don't really expect that to happen.

by TT on Aug 2, 2007 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heck

Heck, even if/when Silva doesn't come back, (which I don't put ghood odds on happening) some guys are going to the pen the way it stands. Santana, Garza, Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Perkins, Slowey... That's a lot of pitchers!

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 2, 2007 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Silva

Santana, Garza, Liriano, Baker, Bonser, Perkins, Slowey... That's a lot of pitchers!

Its seven names, but not that many pitchers. There is one proven major league starter in Santana. Two guys who have yet to pitch an entire season in Baker and Bonser and a third Liriano in that same category who is coming back from shoulder surgery.

The rest of those guys are all prospects with Garza being the one everyone is excited about. Slowey has to prove he can get major league pitchers out and Perkins has yet to stay healthy. At this point I don't think you can count on either one to step in if any of the other five falter. And I suspect at least one will be at AAA getting stretched out just in case.

by TT on Aug 2, 2007 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I would

Bonser has a full year under his belt in 40 ML starts. His career 4.43 is quite good for the first go around for a young pitcher. I believe he has proven he is capable of being a ML pitcher. Garza, who pitched pretty well last year after his firt start (well, pretty OK anyway) and is pitchng extremely well this year, cobined with his minor league track record and fantastic scouting reports I belive is proving he can be a major league pitcher.

Liriano is no guarantee, but TJ surgery is very very safe to recover from now. Many guys come back better because of strength gained in rehab, a stronger elbow than they've EVER had before, and improved mechanics. He's had nearly twice as long to recover as is the minimum, and he should be perfectly fine as a major league pitcher next year.

Baker we may disagree on, but I'm convinced at this point that he is major league pitcher.

Slowey isn't at this point an ML pitcher, but I believe, based on what I've learned of him and what his scouting reports and past success have been that it is very likely he will be a major league pitcher very soon. Slowey would also probably be the #1 guy I'd like to trade for a like young bat since he's good enough to garner a very solid young third baseman. Perhaps a Slowey for Moore trade would make sense for both clubs?

Perkins is the the biggest question mark of all of them. Frankly, I was never that sold on him even before the injury. Unlike Liriano's scary but more generally recoverable injury, Perkin's shoulder problems are not clean and the type of thing that can take a long time to recover from, and recover may just not happen.

So out of those 7, I see 5 guys who I believe are major league pitchers now, 1 guy who I think probably will be very soon, and one big question mark.

I think I'll do an entry on how I feel about these guys actually, because i have a lot of impressions to pass out in one place...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 3, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crain

Hopefully Crain will be ready at some point next year. And I would not be surprised to see Perkins out there. But I doubt anyone else down in Rochester or New Britain will be ready to step in, except perhaps as the Mop. In that case, I would say Slowey, Duensing or Blackburn could get some innings.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2007 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK...

6 guys for a pen, let's say.

Nathan
Neshek
Rincon
Guerrier
Reyes
plus 2 of Bonser/Baker/Perkins/Slowey
plus Crain fairly quickly

I don't think we have to worry about bullpen arms next year. In fact, I'm hoping Rincon is gone, and maybe Reyes too (if Perkins is in the pen).

Put that value to something else, like Rincon for Gomes.

by djskilbr on Aug 2, 2007 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crain

I'm not super optomistic for Crain being back much next year, or at least not so effective. Big shoulder injuries like that are tough and messy. much messier than the scary but highly medically sophisticated elbow injuries we see TJ surgery on.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 2, 2007 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pitching.....

In '07 we have Santana, Bonser, Garza and Baker.

We can probably count on Slowey joining the mix. Liriano will be worked into the mix, who knows, he may actually start the season as the long guy out of the bullpen.

We have Nathan, Guerrier, Neshek and Reyes in the bullpen.

Salary permitting, Pincon could be abck, but remember, he can't take more than a 20% cut.

Other starters to consider in the near wings are Duensing, Perkins, Blackburn. There's a half-dozen names furthr out, but some could be available as call-ups next year if necessary.

In the bullpen the Twins have to make decisions on Ricky Barrett, Bobby Korecky, Jason Miller, Julio DePaula.

Mijares is in the wings. Morlan is further down the ladder. Considering you usually add one rookie a year (if lucky) to the bullpen, the Twins appear pretty well set.

Of course, Ryan will get some retreads on the roster like he did this year in Cummings, Gassner, Baker, Bass.

Maybe Errol Simonitisch will work into a fodder guy (lefty) still. He's on the 40-man and a decision ahs to be made on him, too.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Aug 8, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly..

perfectly said. Casilla is no worse right NOW than Castillo as an overall player, with much room for improvement, AND TR saved 2 million bones.

And I have virtually NO DOUBT now that the Twins are going to re-sign Hunter. Terry Ryan is a lot of things, but stupid isn't one of them. If we weren't going to, he would have dealt him.

I'm sure Santana is just blowing off steam after losing a good buddy on the team. But it would be nice right now if TR just sat him and Torii down and explained everything to them in detail.

I agree though, if anything we should have traded a couple more guys WHILE competing.

I would have liked to see both Silva and Rincon gone and Slowey and Korecky up. I'm not sure we'd be any worse for it AND we'd save a lot of money.

by djskilbr on Aug 1, 2007 2:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Two sides to every coin

While I agree from a fan standpoint about Silva being traded, if they would have done that and not gotten a major league-ready talent, which, judging by the trade market, they might not have, then Santana's sentiment would just be greater and longer lasting. He and Silva are widely known to be best friends, and if he were to be dealt for "the future" then the white flag feeling would just be that much more prevalent, even though Silva will now likely be lost without any compensation after this season.

And I also agree that Casilla replacing Castillo will be more of a lateral move, if it is in fact Casilla getting the large majority of 2B starts rather than Punto. However, after Rincon's implosion this year, I think it was best to keep him and try to rebuild his value before dealing him sometime next year.

So, in the end, I don't really mind the Castillo trade and actually think it was a pretty good idea, but I do mind that it was the ONLY deal that got done prior to the deadline. They needed to deal for a decent bat to help for this season about a month ago, or at least one that could help next year. But, as usual, TR has done very little during the season and will probably attempt to fill our huge lineup holes through veteran FA signings that will never pan out.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Aug 1, 2007 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good points

I agree with most of this. And I think it's Casilla's time to shine, which excites me. I actually think he's better than Castillo right now. He'll save you a couple of more hits a game with his range, and he'll do more with his legs. He'll also make more mistakes, but he already looks more confident than the last time he was up here.

I also think you have to give Ryan the benefit of the doubt a little here. Most teams didn't make any deals before the deadline; and it is getting harder for Ryan to make trades because he's really gotten the better of some GMs in the last five years. So as hard as he was trying to trade Rincon and perhaps Silva for something that can help us now and in the future (two tough criteria to fulfill at the same time), it takes two to tango. And the other GM's weren't dancing.

It's kind of like the last offseason. The Royals set the market in a ridiculous way by signing Meche, which meant Ryan couldn't do much there. And nobody was trading. This is the quietest 12 months on the trade front that I ever remember.

I also think the Twins will add a bat in August, especially if they're still within five games of the wild card at the deadline.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 1, 2007 6:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Brilliant move...

...by Ryan. Had he not traded Castillo, he would need to offer arbitration to get any return. Then when he was working the budget to sign Hunter, Santana, Morneau, etc., he would have to keep Castillo on the books at $6-7mm until he signed with another Club...if he did. What if Luis accepted arbitration? Then Ryan would have two second basemen on the roster at about $7mm (Castillo and Casilla).

Luis was a great guy and teammate. But this was the correct move with Casilla a much better player in 2008 because of it.

by roger on Aug 1, 2007 8:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Not so sure

We won't do jack in 2008 without some improvment to the offense. Nick Punto shouldn't be starting anywhere more than once a week.

TR needs to think long and hard about what Santana said. As a fan, I'd like a team that is a real threat to the world series, not one that just barely makes it in and embarasses everyone in the playoffs. We need a real bat at 3B and DH, and Ryan has shown over and over again that he won't do anything here unless it falls into his lap. Had he added those over the likes of Ponson and Ortiz, this team would be right in the thick of things.

by diehardtwinsfan on Aug 1, 2007 8:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The players will calm down.

Many here have pointed out that the Castillo trade was fairly necessary. There was no way he was coming back next year, he was wearing down some as he did last year and the team has some infield prospects. If Ryan had given up on the season, he probably would have tried to trade Hunter. I think this moves signals that Ryan intends to try and sign Hunter after the season. I liked Castillo a lot but this move was reasonable.

As for the players, of course they're pissed. Castillo was very well liked and it hurts to have your friend sent away, especially when Ryan didn't do anything to add to the team, but the pain will fade. I think Santana was venting some for the entire team, that's what leaders do, and there is no doubt the Twins management have heard the message. However Santana will be here next year, and Ryan has a long time to prove to Johan that the team is committed to winning. Signing Hunter would go a long way towards that goal.

I do think Ryan wanted to make a deal to help the team, but he didn't get the right offer and he is not going to make a bad trade just to get a rent-a-player who may or may not help the team make the playoffs.

by dperl99 on Aug 1, 2007 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I

I don't like that. I just don't like it...

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 1, 2007 10:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

More players back Johan's statements, as well as a state Senator

TR isn't making a whole lotta friends with his "wait and see" strategy these days. Someone call the Governor...there's always more room on the Truth Train!

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Aug 2, 2007 4:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Cuddyer

Cuddyer tells his teammates to shut the hell up:

"Terry Ryan never came down and asked me why I swung at a 3-0 pitch and grounded out to third," Cuddyer said. "It's not my job to make trades or say trades are bad."

From the Star Trib

Also, David Ortiz is a history editing moron:

"You know what ? All the time I was with the Twins I don't remember us picking up anybody at the trading deadline. Ever."

Really? Because in 2001, the Twins traded for both Todd Jones and Rick Reed to help the team.

I know Ortiz wasn't talking about when he wasn't here, but the year after he left we traded for Shannon Stewart, and we all know how that worked out for that season.

You know what? I'm tired of Torii Hunter and his selfish whining and teammate abandoning. I don't care if he thinks less of the organization now. He can do what he wants. As for Santana and Nathan and the like, well, I don't worry too much about that. We have all next year to prove how we want to win. A big part of that will depend on Ryan making a couple good trades like the ones we've been talking about during the offseason. But when we have a good 2008 season, you won't hear about this anymore.

Watch TR not tyr very hard to resign Hunter now, but make sure to bring back Cuddyer. Cuddyer is right, who the hell asked you Santana, or you Hunter?

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 2, 2007 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Wait

Todd Jones and Rick Reed helped the team? =P

And no, the feelings won't go away if we have another "good" year. They will go away if we have a GREAT year. It is fairly apparent that the main performers are sick of being "in playoff contention" every year instead of World Series material. Frankly, I agree with them. Getting to the playoffs means nothing if you get embarrassed there immediately. Those Oakland games last year were pure torture.

Replace Nick Punto.

by rayken on Aug 2, 2007 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I LOVED...

that quote from Cuddyer. Guy is awesome.

by djskilbr on Aug 2, 2007 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cuddyer

Watch TR not tyr very hard to resign Hunter now, but make sure to bring back Cuddyer. Cuddyer is right, who the hell asked you Santana, or you Hunter?

I doubt those comments will make any difference at all in who gets signed. I thought Cuddyer's comment was on the money. But he isn't trying to decide whether to stay or go. Santana and Hunter are and I think the question of whether the Twins will ever get them to the promised land is weighing on them.

What I worry about is that this becomes a big issue/excuse for going. The fact is the best shot either of them have at a World Series ring may well be a young team with Mauer, Morneau and Kubel coming into their primes and a bunch of young pitching ready to dominate. Teams that can afford them like the Yankees are running up hill against age, just like Hunter will be the next few years.

by TT on Aug 2, 2007 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs