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Around SBN: MLB Trade Deadline: Who is available around MLB?

Profitability

After a lot of exciting stories during the trade deadline (Santana's comments, trading Castillo to save money, no trade to help make a push for the playoffs, probably losing Hunter next year, and  losing Santana, Nathan, Morneau and possibly Mauer in the future) I was wondering just how profitable the Minnesota Twins really are?  

As I currently live in NYC, I am forced to follow the day to day news of the Yankees and Mets and I remember a story for a year or two ago about how the Yankees payroll coupled with the luxury tax had actually started to affect the profitablity of the franchise.  I bring this up because I think that one of the biggest problems in sports today is that many sports franchises care more about profits than winning or even fielding a respectable team.  

So this brings me to the another question: How much could the Twins spend in payroll before they lose money and would the current owners do this to win a championship or keep its star players?  

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Well...
Baseball is a business, this is no secret. The Twins in the past have struggled to make a profit. Not to long ago Carl was saying "contract my team if you want to." The team wasn't making any money. Since those days the team has won some division titles, Cy Youngs, MVP's, and other various hardware. The team has fielded some amazing players who alone can bring fans to the dome. As for your question. "How much could the Twins spend before the started losing money?" Good question. We have no way of knowing. How much of a profit does the team bring in? How much goes out via player salaries, management, front office, advertising, dome rent? It is my guess that the team has been bringing in some cash, how much is anyone's guess. I do not believe those profit records are public. If they are, I would love to see them.

by WITwinsfan on Aug 4, 2007 6:44 PM EDT reply actions  

I think
I think most sports teams don't make TOO much money.  There are a few exceptions, but sports teams aren't what people get to get rich.  People that buy sports teams are already plenty rich.

That being said, I think the payrolls the Twins have are pretty good.  They aren't making such if anything, but they aren't losing these days either.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 5, 2007 1:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Payroll
The issue with the Twins payroll isn't how little it is, but how they use it.

4.1 to Ortiz/Ponson
1.0 to Ford
Any amount to LRod

by WITwinsfan on Aug 5, 2007 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

and
1 Million to Sir Sidney

by TMoney on Aug 5, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Um
Yeah, he mentioned Sir Sid...
Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Aug 5, 2007 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Damnit
I AM out of it.  Forgive my incompetence.

by TMoney on Aug 5, 2007 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Profit.....
Like buying a house, you don't make money until that day you re-sell it, and then you have the complicated matters of money paid + interest + repairs - tax deductions and real cash obtained the day you close.

Do the Twins make money? Above and beyond the team payroll, you have the front office staff, minor league system, properties and stuff like insurance/phones/uniforms and the ilk.

With an owner like Pohlad, you can deduct profits against losses in other businesses to pay less in taxes...and the book-keeping does wonders for the bottom line.

You also have to look at increased worth. When the stadium deal was signed, the Twins $$$ worth increased dramatically. It will increase again when the stadium is actually built.

Taking into account that the money Carl paid for the team he actually kept rolling over into debt/loans so his actual "cash" in the enterprise is not that great, but his debt services is more than he might like (although he doesn't, as a banker, want to loan money to himself...would actually play with someone else's money.)

The intrinsic value of a sports franchise is cross-over advertising, image in the community, contacts that you might make that increases the sales/viability of your other businesses.

Yes, you can't spend more than you make, thus you find other partners to pay those bills, too. Or investors. Or TV/MLB money.

The Yankees, truly, are supporting many teams at the expense of out-bidding other teams for players. If they actually paid $10 a year for a salary instead of $18-20, they would probably have to pay less out to other teams and still be able to retain these expensive players.

But the sport has a certain oneupsmanship, mine is bigger than yours, attitude. Baseball is a business, but is often run like a hobby. And like any hobby, you keep justifying your expenses with the dreamlike payout someday down the road.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Aug 5, 2007 10:48 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm fairly convinced that
in addition to the significant equity gained by the increase in value of the franchise, the Twins also have an operating profit.  

They take in a large amount of money in baseball's absurd revenue sharing scheme, in addition to their own and nationally shared revenues.  

Let me speak to the revenue sharing system baseball has.  It's problematic for two related reasons: first, because it invites teams like Pittsburgh to not invest in their product, since they can make a yearly profit simply out of their share of shared and national revenue.  A system that rewards such a poorly run franchise with a profit is not a good system.  

The other problem is that it actively discourages ALL teams from making investments in their product, which might be the goal of MLB, but shouldn't be appreciated by fans.  It does this by forcing all teams to give up a significant percentage of their local revenue.  What this means is that for an investment in the team to make sense from a financial perspective, the expected return on that investment has to be significantly higher than it would be otherwise, since a lot of the ROI is going to other clubs in revenue sharing.

A better system would be to have teams put money into the sharing pool based on EXPECTED revenue, not ACTUAL revenue.  You would determine expected revenue based on market size, and perhaps a couple of other factors, but the bottom line would be that, regardless of how well the club does revenue wise, their contribution would be the same.  What this system would do is encourage teams to actually maximize revenue, because if they exceed their expected revenue, that money would be all theirs, and because if they fall short of expected revenue, they still have to pay based on the total expectation.  Shockingly, this would have the result of rewarding well-run, successful franchises.  Isn't that what we want?  

by Eric in Madison on Aug 5, 2007 11:44 AM EDT reply actions  

2006 Forbes magazine article
I just read a 2006 Forbes mazine article stating that 25 out of 30 MLB franchises posted an operating profit last year. The article also states that average team value has gone up 15% with the Washington Nationals going up 42% due to the new stadium deal.  There is a competing article on ESPN.com quoting Rob Manfred, baseball's executive vice president of labor relations, saying that the information is wrong and that the raw data is made up.  Now why would MLB say that the franchises aren't making any money and that Forbes is wrong?  

by JBrown2818 on Aug 5, 2007 1:23 PM EDT reply actions  

It's a definitional issue...
JBrown,

I think Forbes aggrigates ALL baseball related (estimated) revenues/expenses to the Club.

Some years ago, when Ted Turner owned both the Braves and TBS, and maybe Turner Field.  Each of those entities was a separate corporation (s), for very valid Tax and Legal protection issues.  The Braves NEVER made money, of course their contract with TBS was minimal, so most of the revenue was in TBS rather than the Braves.  Similar for rent for the Stadium.  High rent paid to separate corporation, makes the Ball Club look like it's losing money.

Say when the new stadium is complete, I don't know the exact ownership structure for the stadium, yet I expect the Twins will pay high rent, even if the Polads have controlling interest.  With High depreciation, alot of revenue can be hidden here Tax Free/Defered.  If there are naming rights, I doubt the 3-8 million per year will be deposited to the club, it will end up in some other related entity.

Not sure this is clear, yet it is how BOTH Forbes and MLB could be technically accurate.

Regards,

I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!

by the Dragon on Aug 5, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

At the end of the day
I understand that a franchise can move money around wherever they want to show a profit or loss, but at the end of the day Carl Pohlad knows exactly how much money he makes or loses year to year.  I just wonder with the Twins getting a new stadium and the Fox TV deal (the 2001-2006 deal was worth 2.5 Billion) why am I worried that Hunter will walk at the end of this season, and he will start the long parade of superstars leaving the Twins in the near future.

by JBrown2818 on Aug 6, 2007 6:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Some of this......
Some of the walking could be taken care of if you signed some of the young guys to long-term contracts (a la Cleveland). There is a risk involved, but usually at a lower end than signing a veteran to a long-term contract with a higher per season average.

The other thing Terry Ryan and Co. must do is juggle their oitching prospects so you have them at different levels of compensation as the next 5-10 years roll around. Then you can afford to lose/trad some when they hit arbitration or free agency because there is a suitable (i.e. cheaper) repalcement in the wings. Plus, you don't want to lose all your talent or negotiate with all your talent each year.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Aug 7, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

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