F**k You, Billy Beane

by Jesse on Jan 3, 2008 4:03 PM EST in News

Oakland Athletics trade Nick Swisher to the Chicago White Sox.

In return, the Athletics get:

OF Ryan Sweeney
LHP Gio Gonzalez
RHP Fautino De Los Santos

Beane is in the process of doing exactly what the Twins should do, which is setting up his team for a run in the next two (maybe three) years. The end result of which should be another big window to compete for Oakland.

Anyone else feel like Billy Beane just kicked you in the balls?

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Don't worry

The Sox have almost no starting pitching left.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 3, 2008 4:07 PM EST reply actions

True

Nobody has ever accused Kenny Williams of being a genius. But with Detroit landing a huge deal and Cleveland looking good, having the Sox land a big bat for '08 feels like insult to injury.

I'm sure it'll wear off soon...mostly I think I'm just shocked that Beane traded Swisher. Wow.

by Jesse on Jan 3, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions

Great deal for the Twins!

I'm happy kenny williams is still in charge! The White Sox won't be that great in 2008. They won't compete with Cleveland and Detroit... and now they're giving away their future. I love it!

Great deal for the A's. Beane is doing a nice job!

by SethSpeaks on Jan 3, 2008 4:44 PM EST up reply actions

how

does Kenny Williams still have a job? It's pretty clear that '05 was a major mistake.

by TMoney on Jan 3, 2008 5:19 PM EST up reply actions

Ya, this deal is atrocious...

for the White Sox.

It may end up being good "value" because Swisher is so good and De Los Santos/Gio, while good, are still just prospects.

But it's still stupid because the Sox aren't GOING ANYWHERE! They're still 4th best in the division at best. And now they have ZERO farm system and REALLY no rotation. I imagine that they'll move Crede for some SP somewhere, but that still isn't enough at all.

I really don't get Kenny Williams. Thank you Billy Beane!

The only thing I'm worried about is now it's a real lock that Street will be dealt; hopefully that doesn't depress Nathan's market.

by djskilbr on Jan 3, 2008 8:19 PM EST reply actions

Eh...

...this seems like a fairly even trade to me. Sweeney is unlikely to ever be the hitter that Swisher is already, and I question whether or not Gonzalez or De Los Santos will have good enough control to be effective major league pitchers.

If Sweeney/Gonzalez/De Los Santos were the key to the White Sox' future, their future was pretty bleak anyway.

by ubelmann on Jan 3, 2008 11:04 PM EST reply actions

One thing you have to say for Beane

He has a pair. Willing to trade his best pitcher and best position player, both of whom are still relatively young and under contract for several seasons, takes guts.

When he makes a decision to rebuild, he freaking rebuilds.

by Eric in Madison on Jan 3, 2008 11:44 PM EST reply actions

I think I should have

titled this one "Cheers to Billy Beane, Lord of Baseball" because that's pretty much what I meant. You're abosolutely right--he always knows what direction he wants to go, and he goes.

by Jesse on Jan 4, 2008 1:05 AM EST up reply actions

Well, yes....

their future is bleak no matter what, but I would argue it would be LESS bleak with 3 of their top 6 prospects in the fold.

I'm not all that high on Gio or Sweeney either (I'm higher on de los santos) but they still offered SOME hope for the future. Now the Sox really have none.

Kenny Williams should have dealt all of Buehrle/Vasquez/Dye/Thome/Konerko/Crede/Garland/Contreras to restock the farm, not resigned/kept the vast majority of them, or traded them for other overrated veterans (Cabrera) that won't help them win anything other than MAYBE 4th place. That's the bottomline for me.

by djskilbr on Jan 3, 2008 11:45 PM EST reply actions

I'm withubelmann

I think it's pretty even. Gonzales can't be that great if Williams was willing to trade him twice. And Sweeney won't be the star that Swisher is.

Still, I don't get it. The Sox need a center fielder, not another corner outfielder/first baseman. From a sheer talent perspective, it's an even trade from what the Sox need, it makes no sense.

And in the long run, Beane will get the better of the deal. It'll just take a couple of years, when he can no longer afford Swisher and he needs to fill holes.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 4, 2008 12:14 AM EST reply actions

I was so perplexed at this comment that I had to..

Create a profile and tell you that while I truly believe you are probably a smart person-- you have said something that cannot even slide by as even accidentally intelligent.

This was a brilliant move by a smart business man who knows that a Swisher is going to cost this team many many millions of dollars at his next contract and probably would want the farm... all for a guy who probably will be on the DL twice if not 3 times a year.

Getting a LH and a RH pitching prospect was a wise decision plus a very good prospect for the OF to push Spring Training battles.

Don't hate the player for making a great move. The Twins could have got Clement or Prior I think for a very economical price and the upswing would be tremendous if they can pitch like they are capable of.

I could not imagine a healthy Prior behind Santana, and Liriano plus a Bonser who, if he avoids the late inning gas guzzling innings would be a 12 game winner.... and a part of would be one of the best rotations in baseball.

Stegaman Quirple from 'The Zone'

The home of Mr. 101.

by TheeStegamanQuirple on Jan 4, 2008 12:16 AM EST reply actions

I think you misunderstood me

I'm not complaining that the White Sox have picked up a big bat. I'm just impressed that Beane has the balls to do what he's done...when it's exactly what the Twins should be doing, and have failed to do thus far. We're not in a bad position right now, but finding a way to deal Santana and Nathan would put us miles ahead looking into the future.

I don't hate the player for making the great move. I'm just sad the Twins haven't had the same approach.

by Jesse on Jan 4, 2008 1:04 AM EST up reply actions

To that point...

More than Beane, I feel like Bill Smith has kicked me in the balls, by not doing anything yet.

by Jon Marthaler on Jan 4, 2008 1:25 AM EST up reply actions

Bill Smith hasn't done anything yet?

...He traded for Monroe, which isn't a big move but adds a bat/player to our bench that is better than anyone coming off the bench in 2007. He then made a huge trade that I personally was a bit unhappy about because of Morlan. But the more one thinks about it, getting a young player who could be one of the premier hitters in the game a year or two down the road, plus a player who isn't an adequate shortstop but likely is a solid second baseman with a better bat than anyone in our 2007 infield not named Morneau. Throw in a player whom the Twins believe could contend for a spot on the team who is capable of playing centerfield...likely a 4th outfielder, but that is a huge trade. Then to fill holes for 2008/2009, he goes out and signs a light hitting shortstop that most people believe is as good as any in the game defensively plus, a third baseman who should be a solid hitter with some pop. Smith has been our GM for three months and four days...those moves, together with not accepting first offer for Santana to me appears to be an awful lot. Is there work remaining, certainly, but opening day is nearly 3 months off.

by roger @ Twinkie Town on Jan 4, 2008 7:52 AM EST up reply actions

You misinterpret me

I realize he's done things, except with Santana, and you'll note the offers aren't getting any better there.

There's no point in arguing about it though. Let's see what ends up happening, and we can judge him based on results rather than expected results.

by Jon Marthaler on Jan 4, 2008 12:46 PM EST reply actions

i understand

I understand your title Jesse. I'm not too happy seeing Swisher come over here either, but still, not the end of everything.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 4, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply actions

Swisher

is another big hitter I wish wasn't in the division, but mostly I continue to be impressed with how Beane recognizes which direction his team needs to go, and then pursues action tirelessly until he's found an answer he likes. Beane is tenacious, and he isn't afraid to make unpopular moves to ensure his team is competetive...even if it's a long term plan.

You can't be afraid. Billy Beane isn't.

by Jesse on Jan 4, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions

So wait

So wait, are you "angry" at Beane for his lack of fear, exposing our weaknesses, or because he sent a big hitter to our biggest rival and a division opponent.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 5, 2008 5:00 AM EST up reply actions

the trade was pretty big and pretty unexpected.

That was the sense I got (the emotional impact) in Jesse's first post, not really a rational, analytical post. Every now and then those types of posts are good too. They give us all something to work with.

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 5, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions

The first two

It's mostly jealousy. Moving Swisher to a division rival is secondary, particularly after the intial shock wore off.

by Jesse on Jan 5, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions

All things said

it still has to suck being an A's fan b/c the players come and go so quickly.

Like one fan said, buy throwback jerseys, b/c current jerseys get old really fast.

by caluofmn on Jan 4, 2008 3:33 PM EST reply actions

think

I think those prospects suck. I would rather have Swisher. I think Swisher in CF is a huge downgrade defensively over what they should have in Chicago.

The difference between the Twins and Oakland is that we can still be competitive next season. We shouldn't have to trade our veterans for younger players all of the time as we are only one or 2 players away from being extremely competetive next season. we have a deep bullpen, a stronger bench. lots of young starting pitchers, and a few young hitters. A complete CF who can get on base will give us an above average offense. If we keep Santana we should be able to compete with an above average offense and rotation. Winning isn't guarenteed. We will have to compete with Detroit and Cleveland. But I feel that we are close to matching up well with either of them.

by doofus04 on Jan 4, 2008 5:26 PM EST reply actions

hehe

I love the takes on the sister sites, and I agree with them.

Sox fans are livid and know that they got fleeced once again. I picture a mob with pitchforks at Kenny Williams' doorstep soon.

And while the A's fans (I've always really liked them; my 2nd favorite team, EASILY) are pissed that they just traded their favorite player, they know that Beane just raped another GM too.

Great stuff.

by djskilbr on Jan 5, 2008 1:20 AM EST reply actions

Trading

Is it good to have some roster turnover? Should anyone really be sacred these days in baseball?

The Twins stood pat, so to speak, in 2007 and look where they went.

The general manager is a job of juggling...can I afford to keep someone today and see them leave tomorrow? Is there someone in the system that is almost as good (or better) than someone else. Can I trade salary for potential. Et al, et al.

The Braves are also a good example of a team that managed to change 3-4-5 players a season, and even part with the players you never thought would leave (Maddox, Glavine for example). And, hey, once a player leaves, whose to say they won't come back?

Look fpr the next season or two when the Twins trade Morneau and bring back Mientkiewicz to play first abse until Lis or someone of that ilk is on board.

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Jan 5, 2008 1:34 PM EST reply actions

A.J.

I didn't read all these comments, but if you look at the projections for both Gio and especially De Los Santos, this might have some A.J for Nathan Boof and Liriano comps.

Swisher can get on base... But he is no superstar and I don't think he will get any better in Chi Town.

Trav

by trap11 on Jan 6, 2008 8:13 AM EST reply actions

True that

Swisher is no superstar, but he is a good team guy, a real hustle guy, a fan favorite, and a clubhouse chemistry guy. Call all those things overrated if you want, but Chicago is in need of a few of those types of guys.

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 7, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions

Sad ending to the Moneyball chapter

Beane never found his Giambi or Damon out of that 2002 draft. I was a little sad that Beane finally gave up on Swisher.

by TheMattWilke on Jan 7, 2008 1:38 PM EST reply actions

It's the essence of Moneyball

to sell high. The whole point of the book was to search out traits in players that are under valued, and from our perspective it looks like Beane thought Swisher's value was either A) over estimated by the White Sox, or B) as high as it was likely to get.

I get what you mean though. Beane was virtually dry-humping the scouting report on Swisher, and now he deals him. It's the tragic cycle of the old Greek plays...except instead of the gods coming down and killing everyone at the end, Billy Beane just trades you.

by Jesse on Jan 8, 2008 12:19 AM EST up reply actions

Swisher wasn't really a Moneyball player

He was drafted right about where he was rated by all the major scouting services. So it's not like Beane got a find there.

The one thing that's changed since 2002 is the use of better metrics. Everyone uses OBP as perhaps the most important measuring stick for a hitter. So teams don't undervalue OBP guys anymore and they get expensive quick. Beane sold at the right time.

The paradigm Moneyball guy from the 2002 draft was Jeremy Brown. He was supposed to be such a find that Beane insisted on reaching from where the scouting services rated him (12th round) to a sandwich pick. Though Brown has put up good numbers offensively, the thing that dropped him down in the scouting reports is what's keeping him from the majors. He's just too fat and slow.

I think 2002 is a paradigm of why not to reach for draft choices just because they profile to your favorite metrics in college. If you don't pay attention to tools in addition to numbers, you end up with a lack of athletic ability in your system.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 8, 2008 10:19 AM EST reply actions

Not saying he's a stud

But Jeremy Brown's minor league stats don't look so bad (2005 wasn't great). He's a bit old, but excluding 2005 he has a pretty solid .275/.375/.450, and he's shown some power the last 3 years 47 HR in 1000 at bats. He should get a shot this year. And remember that one of the keys to picking him was that he was reliable and cheap. He wasn't going to receive a $5 million bonus and then get hurt.

by snolls on Jan 9, 2008 8:13 AM EST reply actions

He can hit

But he can't run or field. He'd be in the majors right now if he could do either.

I suppose his career might be like Jack Cust's or something. But that's hardly worth a sandwich pick, IMO. Go ahead and draft him a couple of rounds ahead of his BA slot (10th round or so), but don't ridicule you're own scouts because all you care about are advanced offensive metrics. At least that's how the book portrayed Beane insisting on reaching for Brown against his scout's loud protests.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 9, 2008 10:05 AM EST up reply actions