2008 PECOTA
Well, Baseball Prospectus subscribers got their first look at PECOTA's 2008 projections this weekend. Below are a couple of the projections I found interesting:
PECOTA sees decent years for Mauer and Morneau, but not tremendous ones:
Mauer: .295/.375/.420
Morneau: .271/.339/.465
These both seem very low to me. A sub 800 OPS for Mauer? An 804 OPS for Morneau? Considering the age and track record of both these hitters, I find this very surprising.
On the bright side:
Delmon Young: 294/329/458
A 787 OPS from a 22 year old outfielder with some defensive upside? Love it.
What about some of the new guys?:
Carlos Gomez: 249/302/358
Humber: 6.47 ERA (yikes!), 5.9 K/9, 3.7 BB/9, 1.7 HR/9
Mulvey: 4.77 ERA, 4.4 K/9, 3.3 BB/9, .9 HR/9
I don't know how many of these I should post without risking angering the good folks at BP (god knows they deserve your subscription money). Just thought these were pretty interesting. I'll also add that looking at the offensive projections in the middle infield, it looks like we should at least consider using Casilla (264/317/340)/Tolbert (254/312/366)at second, Harris (and his questionable D) at SS, with Everett (235/275/320) filling in as a defensive replacement.
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23 comments
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No way
by Jesse on Feb 4, 2008 1:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
everett....
by larrybowa on Feb 4, 2008 2:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Everett
I guess I'm just trying to think of a way to maximize the value of the pieces we have in the infield. I guess there really isn't any point in having this discussion until we see Everett in spring training. If his range is the same as it was pre-injury, I buy the "his glove outweighs his bat" argument and could see slotting him in as the starter. If his defense is merely very good as opposed to outstanding, we may have to begin thinking of him as a $3 million defensive replacement. Going by these projections, Casilla potentially represents 42 points of OBP over Everett.
by Bobomojo on Feb 4, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I saw Harris' projection...
So Harris can hit, but ultimately gives those runs back on defense. If Harris and Punto were part of some kind of intelligent offense/defense platoon, then the sum could be greater than the parts, but if he's just plugged into the lineup every day, Harris isn't going to help us win more games than Punto would.
by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good argument
It seems that with the extremely flawed collection of talent we have to fill our middle infield slots, we need to continually think of them as changeable parts rather than starters and back-ups.
by Bobomojo on Feb 4, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morneau
by caseintheface on Feb 4, 2008 2:36 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I believe so
by Jesse on Feb 4, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Top comparables for Humber...
Then Steven Hammond, Jamey Price, and Adam Peterson. Peterson was awful in his age 25/26 seasons and dropped off the map after that. I don't know much about Hammond or Price.
It's worth noting that Humber's beta is 1.28, which is fairly high, implying that PECOTA foresees a wide range of possibilities for Humber. He also has a fairly high 29% chance of improvement coupled with a 56% chance for collapse, so PECOTA sees this as sort of a "make or break" season for Humber. I also don't see Humber being that bad this season, but the HR rate from last year is pretty worrisome, even for the PCL.
by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it
Ubelmann, you have been the biggest defender of PECOTA around here. What gives?
by cmathewson on Feb 4, 2008 2:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Proponent...
Anyway, regarding Morneau. His park-adjusted forecast is .273/.343/.491 and his career-to-date line is .276/.340/.498. His raw projection is .271/.339/.465. The Dome has been playing somewhat like a pitcher's park lately, and that knocked ~25 points off of his SLG and 1 point off of his OBP.
Conventional wisdom says guys improve from ages 22 to ages 28, have a plateau of a year or more, and then decline.
Everything about PECOTA stems from the fact that it determines a list of the players most comparable to that guy, and then seeing how those guys did the next year. So if PECOTA isn't projecting big leaps forward, it's because the hitters that were most similar to him didn't take a big step forward. (For most hitters, we're talking about a group of 60-100 hitters that compare well enough to be included at some level.)
Morneau's most comparable hitter is Hrbek (the second year in a row that has happened), and he had a pretty typical career arc. If Morneau does what Hrbek did, he'll have about a 140 OPS+ next year. Morneau's second most comparable hitter is Greg Walker, who hit .277/.345/.493 with a 122 OPS+ as a 26-year-old (very similar to Morneau's '07 campaign.) Walker's career promptly fizzled out after age 26, though, never hitting above a 110 OPS+ again.
Those are the first two guys--PECOTA just keeps going to see what the whole collection looks like. Overall, the group apparently didn't show much improvement over their career numbers. I think Morneau's a decent bet to beat his career numbers, but I guess I'm skeptical that he'll be a whole lot better than his career numbers until he can show the ability to lay off a few more borderline pitches and take a few more walks. Until he does that, I think we'll see a lot more seasons around .280/.345/.500, which is decent, but rather unspectacular for a first baseman.
As for Mauer, I'm a bit more confused, but my guess is that with the decreased playing time, and being compared most closely to catchers, he's getting compared with a bunch of guys who became injury-prone and who maybe had a flukishly good season followed by a regression to what they could really do. (For instance, I think Mauer's capable of repeating 2006 from a value standpoint, but I'm sure there are more players who had a season like his '06 and never repeated it than there are players who had his '06 and did it over and over again.) The full projections aren't available yet, so I don't know Mauer's similarity score. Last year it was 17, which in and of itself is pretty low, and means that there weren't many players that similar to Mauer, and PECOTA was basically issuing a warning stating "I'm not so sure about this one." I'd guess his similarity index is pretty low, but I'm not sure. Mauer's such a freak for a catcher that PECOTA has to go to other positions to get comparable hitters, which probably also reduces the reliability of his forecast.
I still think those two projections are useful, as it may help make expectations for the season a little more reasonable, but I'd guess that other projection systems might be a bit more bullish on those two. ZiPS has Mauer at .315/.404/.458 and Morneau at .283/.355/.527, for instance, and neither ZiPS or PECOTA is substantially more accurate than the other.
by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
L-Rod
by 33MorneauMVP on Feb 4, 2008 3:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
L-Rod
How come no one talks about this free agent loss?
by twintown on Feb 4, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
The guys against whom L-Rod would compete with (Machado, Casilla) are much more talented in all phases of the game, with the possible exception of plate discipline.
Plus, they don't call you a free agent loss when you're released before the team needs to make a decision on whether or not to tender you a contract.
by cmathewson on Feb 4, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Screw PECOTA...
There is NO way, NONE, that Morneau and Mauer hit that poorly this year. I will bet the house on either of those.
I also don't like their IP projections for our staff. I think those are far low too. Who ran PECOTA this year? A White Sox fan?
I think Marcel is much, much more accurate this year for their projections, and if you plug in what our lineups/staff should be this year, that has us at about 87 wins. I think that is maybe SLIGHTLY optimistic (I think we'll have about 85-86) but it's pretty damn close.
Guess we'll see.
by djskilbr on Feb 4, 2008 11:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Sorry....
There is NO way, NONE, that Morneau and Mauer hit that poorly this year. I will bet the house on either of those.
Um, I hope you don't have a wife or kids, because that's certainly not a bet I would take. I like the chances of those guys beating those lines, but there's certainly a chance that they could underperform those lines. Morneau hit .243/.318/.384 over his last ~300 AB, so I'm certainly not betting any real estate on him beating his career average this year. A Jackson or two? Sure. But not a house, and certainly not my own house.
Even if you're right and PECOTA is drastically underestimating Mauer and Morneau, that's just two hitters out of about 950 that were projected. Two bad forecasts does not make for a useless system.
Who ran PECOTA this year? A White Sox fan?
That is pretty rich considering that last year, White Sox fans were screaming bloody murder over how "unfair" PECOTA was being to them, and how they were going to be way better than that, and then they finished almost exactly where PECOTA projected them.
It's an algorithm designed to minimize the deviation between a player's projected performance and his actual performance in the next season. It doesn't have feelings, and it's certainly not biased against the Twins.
by ubelmann on Feb 5, 2008 12:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know ubelmann
But I really do think they are extremely pessimistic on the Twins. Not just with those but also with IP.
I think Marcel will be proven right in the Twins' case this year. I'd personally be shocked if the Twins don't win at least 82 games or so. I think we'll win more like 85-86.
We shall see.
by djskilbr on Feb 5, 2008 1:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mostly
But I do find Morneau's projection curiously low. It would be another sizable dropoff from last year, after a HUGE dropoff from the season before in a player just entering his 27th year of life. I mean, he was in the exact same hitting environment last year as he will be this year, so I don't see how the park adjustment argument makes sense.
And I can't imagine, based on the method of projection the PETCOA uses, that Joe Mauer's projections, good or bad, would ever be very useful. Joe Mauer is one of those very very rare players who is unique in all the game. A few guys are unique in all the game today, but Mauer is one of those even rarer guys who really, is pretty damn unique in the entire history of the game. So with nobody really to compare Mauer too, I wouldn't put too much stock in a PETCOA forcast of him, good or bad.
Doesn't mean it can't be right though. it's pretty damn close to what his numbers were last year, although it seems to me like the numbers should all be a hair ABOVE where they were last year instead of a bit below.
I guess it seems odd that Mauer and Morneau are both pegged to even further regress from 2006 form, which doesn't really jive with most other evidence, primarily their ages and (especially for Mauer) their career averages.
by AdamOnFirst on Feb 5, 2008 5:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I'm no PECOTA expert, but it seems there's a flaw in the methodology. I suppose there's some value in comparing players to others with similar numbers at similar ages. But every player is unique, with different upsides and development paths.
At the very least, there needs to be some scouting triangulation that says, e.g., "there really are no players in history that compare to Joe Mauer. The best we can do is give a range of possible performances. Based on our scouting, we expect him to hit the high end of the range."
Instead, they seem to take the worst case scenario and make no allowances for injuries, upside, whether or not the player was rushed, etc.
by cmathewson on Feb 5, 2008 10:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Remember, these are weighted mean projections
Morneau's 2007 .271/.343/.492 fell right around the 20th/27th/33rd percentile projections, respectively.
For Mauer's .293/.382/.426, he was at 11th/20th/13th percentile respectively.
On the other hand, Hunter's .287/.334/.505 was at 62nd/47th/78th percentile projections.
by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marcel was way optimistic
As a result, my initial projection of 86-87 wins for the Twins (without Santana) was really about a .500 record once I corrected for the bias. We were 785-722 before and 748-741 after correcting.
PECOTA showed much less bias when projecting for entire teams, less than 0.5% in both RF/RA relative to league averages. The bad news is that my application of PECOTA projects us at a 74-88 record next year, 83-79 before we traded Santana.
by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mean Projection?
Because when I look at this, I think my mode (most likely) estimate would be the following:
Mauer: .300/.390/.435 (small uptick)
Morneau: .275/.360/.490 (I don't get where they get the slugging number, and I think his walks will be higher if his power stays up later in the year).
Here's where the concept of the mean comes into play. I would expect Mauer to have much more range on the low side than the high side. He could hig .315+.400+.450+, but he's not going to hit .400/.500/550 or anything. So the risk is on the low end, which brings down the mean, which is why their projection makes some sense to me. If he had a bad start, or an injury issue, he could easily wind up with .265/.350/.380.
But this is where I don't understand the Morneau projection. I don't think he is likely to SIGNIFICANTLY underpeform this line. I do think there is a possibility that he busts out another .310+.375+.550+, which should bring up the mean score.
Anyway, I don't know how they come up with distributions. Do they use the empirical distribution based on the peer group, or do they use the peer group for the mean, with some kind of curve fitting based on a wider group to get the shape of the likelihoods of the outcomes?
by snolls on Feb 5, 2008 9:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Different distributions for each player
Breakout Rate: % chance of 20% improvement in EqR/27 compared to average of last three seasons.
Improve Rate: % chance that EqR/27 will improve at all over the average of last three seasons.
Collapse Rate: % chance that EqR/27 will decline by at least 20% over last three seasons.
Attrition Rate: % chance that a player's PA will decline by at least 50% relative to forecast.
Beta: Measure of volatility, higher than 1.0 is riskier, lower is less risky.
For Morneau, PECOTA projects 7/36/27/3/0.89 Breakout/Improve/Collapse/Attrition/Beta.
For Mauer, the numbers are 10/31/36/9/0.94.
Basically, Mauer is more likely to breakout in 2008, but he's also more likely to collapse or have fewer than 280 PA (50% of his 2008 projection).
by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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