Twinkie Town: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

2008 PECOTA

Well, Baseball Prospectus subscribers got their first look at PECOTA's 2008 projections this weekend.  Below are a couple of the projections I found interesting:

PECOTA sees decent years for Mauer and Morneau, but not tremendous ones:

Mauer: .295/.375/.420
Morneau: .271/.339/.465

These both seem very low to me.  A sub 800 OPS for Mauer?  An 804 OPS for Morneau?  Considering the age and track record of both these hitters, I find this very surprising.

On the bright side:

Delmon Young: 294/329/458

A 787 OPS from a 22 year old outfielder with some defensive upside? Love it.

What about some of the new guys?:

Carlos Gomez: 249/302/358
Humber: 6.47 ERA (yikes!), 5.9 K/9, 3.7 BB/9, 1.7 HR/9
Mulvey: 4.77 ERA, 4.4 K/9, 3.3 BB/9, .9 HR/9

I don't know how many of these I should post without risking angering the good folks at BP (god knows they deserve your subscription money). Just thought these were pretty interesting.  I'll also add that looking at the offensive projections in the middle infield, it looks like we should at least consider using Casilla (264/317/340)/Tolbert (254/312/366)at second, Harris (and his questionable D) at SS, with Everett (235/275/320) filling in as a defensive replacement.

0 recs  |  Comment 23 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

No way
You love Everett!  Are you actually proposing that he doesn't start the year for us at SS?

by Jesse on Feb 4, 2008 1:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

everett....
Even with Everett's craptastic offense, his value on defense will far, far outweigh any offensive gain the above mentioned players are projected to provide.  Seriously, Everett is the best defensive SS in the game.  
Anyone want Jose Vidro? Please?

by larrybowa on Feb 4, 2008 2:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Everett
I completely understand this argument.  I was actually a pretty big defender of the Everett signing when it happened.

I guess I'm just trying to think of a way to maximize the value of the pieces we have in the infield.  I guess there really isn't any point in having this discussion until we see Everett in spring training.  If his range is the same as it was pre-injury, I buy the "his glove outweighs his bat" argument and could see slotting him in as the starter.  If his defense is merely very good as opposed to outstanding, we may have to begin thinking of him as a $3 million defensive replacement. Going by these projections, Casilla potentially represents 42 points of OBP over Everett.

by Bobomojo on Feb 4, 2008 3:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw Harris' projection...
...and thought to myself, "he's practically as bad as Punto."  PECOTA has Punto at a .238 EQA next year and Harris at a .263 EQA.  That gives Harris an edge in hitting, but it's only around 15-20 runs.  Conservatively, Harris is a -10 defender at either position up-the-middle.  (Harris' defense is very bad, and essentially every defensive metric agrees on this, some of them putting him at more like a -20 or -25 defender.)  I think it's reasonable to say that Punto is about a +5 defender up-the-middle and closer to average at third base.

So Harris can hit, but ultimately gives those runs back on defense.  If Harris and Punto were part of some kind of intelligent offense/defense platoon, then the sum could be greater than the parts, but if he's just plugged into the lineup every day, Harris isn't going to help us win more games than Punto would.

by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good argument
I agree that there is a huge trade-off with Punto/Harris, even moreso with Harris/Everett.

It seems that with the extremely flawed collection of talent we have to fill our middle infield slots, we need to continually think of them as changeable parts rather than starters and back-ups.

by Bobomojo on Feb 4, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Morneau
That seems awfully craptastic for him.  Also I can't imagine Humber being that bad.  Is this going to be his second full season removed from the surgery?
P.S. if Kelly Theiser reports again that a pitcher had a bad start because he didn't keep the ball down, I might have to kill myself.

by caseintheface on Feb 4, 2008 2:36 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I believe so
He pitched in '06, but that was pretty much all recovery time.  This should be his second full season back from Tommy John.

by Jesse on Feb 4, 2008 3:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Top comparables for Humber...
Jeremy Guthrie--not very good in his age 25 and 26 seasons until putting together a solid campaign last year (though I think he got a bit lucky on his ERA.)

Then Steven Hammond, Jamey Price, and Adam Peterson.  Peterson was awful in his age 25/26 seasons and dropped off the map after that.  I don't know much about Hammond or Price.

It's worth noting that Humber's beta is 1.28, which is fairly high, implying that PECOTA foresees a wide range of possibilities for Humber.  He also has a fairly high 29% chance of improvement coupled with a 56% chance for collapse, so PECOTA sees this as sort of a "make or break" season for Humber.  I also don't see Humber being that bad this season, but the HR rate from last year is pretty worrisome, even for the PCL.

by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't get it
Conventional wisdom says guys improve from ages 22 to ages 28, have a plateau of a year or more, and then decline. PECOTA has guys who should be improving based on age getter worse. That makes no sense. I'm especially skeptical of Morneau's projection. A sub .800 OPS? Puh-lease. What possible justification could they give for that?

Ubelmann, you have been the biggest defender of PECOTA around here. What gives?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 4, 2008 2:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Proponent...
I would say that I've been one of PECOTA's biggest propenents, not necessarily one of its biggest defenders.  It's a tool.  One piece of the puzzle, and I think we get the best idea about how a player is going to do by looking at PECOTA and ZiPS and CHONE and scouting reports and all of the other information we can get our hands on, and then combine it all.

Anyway, regarding Morneau.  His park-adjusted forecast is .273/.343/.491 and his career-to-date line is .276/.340/.498.  His raw projection is .271/.339/.465.  The Dome has been playing somewhat like a pitcher's park lately, and that knocked ~25 points off of his SLG and 1 point off of his OBP.

Conventional wisdom says guys improve from ages 22 to ages 28, have a plateau of a year or more, and then decline.

Everything about PECOTA stems from the fact that it determines a list of the players most comparable to that guy, and then seeing how those guys did the next year.  So if PECOTA isn't projecting big leaps forward, it's because the hitters that were most similar to him didn't take a big step forward.  (For most hitters, we're talking about a group of 60-100 hitters that compare well enough to be included at some level.)

Morneau's most comparable hitter is Hrbek (the second year in a row that has happened), and he had a pretty typical career arc.  If Morneau does what Hrbek did, he'll have about a 140 OPS+ next year.  Morneau's second most comparable hitter is Greg Walker, who hit .277/.345/.493 with a 122 OPS+ as a 26-year-old (very similar to Morneau's '07 campaign.)  Walker's career promptly fizzled out after age 26, though, never hitting above a 110 OPS+ again.

Those are the first two guys--PECOTA just keeps going to see what the whole collection looks like.  Overall, the group apparently didn't show much improvement over their career numbers.  I think Morneau's a decent bet to beat his career numbers, but I guess I'm skeptical that he'll be a whole lot better than his career numbers until he can show the ability to lay off a few more borderline pitches and take a few more walks.  Until he does that, I think we'll see a lot more seasons around .280/.345/.500, which is decent, but rather unspectacular for a first baseman.

As for Mauer, I'm a bit more confused, but my guess is that with the decreased playing time, and being compared most closely to catchers, he's getting compared with a bunch of guys who became injury-prone and who maybe had a flukishly good season followed by a regression to what they could really do.  (For instance, I think Mauer's capable of repeating 2006 from a value standpoint, but I'm sure there are more players who had a season like his '06 and never repeated it than there are players who had his '06 and did it over and over again.)  The full projections aren't available yet, so I don't know Mauer's similarity score.  Last year it was 17, which in and of itself is pretty low, and means that there weren't many players that similar to Mauer, and PECOTA was basically issuing a warning stating "I'm not so sure about this one."  I'd guess his similarity index is pretty low, but I'm not sure.  Mauer's such a freak for a catcher that PECOTA has to go to other positions to get comparable hitters, which probably also reduces the reliability of his forecast.

I still think those two projections are useful, as it may help make expectations for the season a little more reasonable, but I'd guess that other projection systems might be a bit more bullish on those two.  ZiPS has Mauer at .315/.404/.458 and Morneau at .283/.355/.527, for instance, and neither ZiPS or PECOTA is substantially more accurate than the other.

by ubelmann on Feb 4, 2008 3:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

L-Rod
L-rod is no longer a Twin...he was released in October...where have you been??

by 33MorneauMVP on Feb 4, 2008 3:10 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

D'oh!
Thanks for the correction.  I pieced together this post at work going off of BPs spreadsheet.  I guess the fact-checking side of my brain wasn't into it.  I'll take him off my initial post.

by Bobomojo on Feb 4, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

L-Rod
Set to be a back-up infielder with the San Diego Padres.

How come no one talks about this free agent loss?

check out Twinkies autograph collection at www.TwinsCards.com

by twintown on Feb 4, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well
I know some people are fans of Luis. But there isn't a lot of value in slow, defensively challenged utility players who hit .219/.277/.303/.580. I know he hit better than Punto last year, but Punto is a plus defender at a position, and he can play three positions. L-Rod is just too limited in the field to be much use, especially at short.

The guys against whom L-Rod would compete with (Machado, Casilla) are much more talented in all phases of the game, with the possible exception of plate discipline.

Plus, they don't call you a free agent loss when you're released before the team needs to make a decision on whether or not to tender you a contract.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 4, 2008 8:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Screw PECOTA...
I've never liked it and thought it was pretty odd on a lot of its projections, and this just confirms it for me.

There is NO way, NONE, that Morneau and Mauer hit that poorly this year.  I will bet the house on either of those.

I also don't like their IP projections for our staff.  I think those are far low too.  Who ran PECOTA this year?  A White Sox fan?

I think Marcel is much, much more accurate this year for their projections, and if you plug in what our lineups/staff should be this year, that has us at about 87 wins.  I think that is maybe SLIGHTLY optimistic (I think we'll have about 85-86) but it's pretty damn close.

Guess we'll see.

by djskilbr on Feb 4, 2008 11:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry....
Marcel has not been better than PECOTA in any meaningful way in the past, and there is no reason to expect that to change this year.

There is NO way, NONE, that Morneau and Mauer hit that poorly this year.  I will bet the house on either of those.

Um, I hope you don't have a wife or kids, because that's certainly not a bet I would take.  I like the chances of those guys beating those lines, but there's certainly a chance that they could underperform those lines.  Morneau hit .243/.318/.384 over his last ~300 AB, so I'm certainly not betting any real estate on him beating his career average this year.  A Jackson or two?  Sure.  But not a house, and certainly not my own house.

Even if you're right and PECOTA is drastically underestimating Mauer and Morneau, that's just two hitters out of about 950 that were projected.  Two bad forecasts does not make for a useless system.

Who ran PECOTA this year?  A White Sox fan?

That is pretty rich considering that last year, White Sox fans were screaming bloody murder over how "unfair" PECOTA was being to them, and how they were going to be way better than that, and then they finished almost exactly where PECOTA projected them.

It's an algorithm designed to minimize the deviation between a player's projected performance and his actual performance in the next season.  It doesn't have feelings, and it's certainly not biased against the Twins.

by ubelmann on Feb 5, 2008 12:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know ubelmann
my post was mostly hyperbole.

But I really do think they are extremely pessimistic on the Twins.  Not just with those but also with IP.

I think Marcel will be proven right in the Twins' case this year.  I'd personally be shocked if the Twins don't win at least 82 games or so.  I think we'll win more like 85-86.

We shall see.

by djskilbr on Feb 5, 2008 1:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mostly
Mostly I agree that it's just fine as a projection, and I can accept all those lines up there as a reasonable  output from one system.

But I do find Morneau's projection curiously low.  It would be another sizable dropoff from last year, after a HUGE dropoff from the season before in a player just entering his 27th year of life.  I mean, he was in the exact same hitting environment last year as he will be this year, so I don't see how the park adjustment argument makes sense.

And I can't imagine, based on the method of projection the PETCOA uses, that Joe Mauer's projections, good or bad, would ever be very useful.  Joe Mauer is one of those very very rare players who is unique in all the game.  A few guys are unique in all the game today, but Mauer is one of those even rarer guys who really, is pretty damn unique in the entire history of the game.  So with nobody really to compare Mauer too, I wouldn't put too much stock in a PETCOA forcast of him, good or bad.

Doesn't mean it can't be right though.  it's pretty damn close to what his numbers were last year, although it seems to me like the numbers should all be a hair ABOVE where they were last year instead of a bit below.

I guess it seems odd that Mauer and Morneau are both pegged to even further regress from 2006 form, which doesn't really jive with most other evidence, primarily their ages and (especially for Mauer) their career averages.

Baseball is great because you cant take a knee or kill the clock. You gotta put the ball over the plate and give the other guy his damn shot E Weaver abridged

by AdamOnFirst on Feb 5, 2008 5:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1
My thinking exactly. We expected some regression to the mean last year. We received more than we expected. So we would expect the pendulum to swing back a bit, especially with age in their favor. To project more regression makes little sense.

I'm no PECOTA expert, but it seems there's a flaw in the methodology. I suppose there's some value in comparing players to others with similar numbers at similar ages. But every player is unique, with different upsides and development paths.

At the very least, there needs to be some scouting triangulation that says, e.g., "there really are no players in history that compare to Joe Mauer. The best we can do is give a range of possible performances. Based on our scouting, we expect him to hit the high end of the range."

Instead, they seem to take the worst case scenario and make no allowances for injuries, upside, whether or not the player was rushed, etc.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 5, 2008 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Remember, these are weighted mean projections
BP posts the weighted mean PECOTA projections for each player in its spreadsheet and then once the player cards are finished on the web site, they post the 10, 25, 40, 50, 60, 75, and 90th percentile projections for each player. I.e., they do post a range, it's just not what most of us post or use for team projections. For Morneau's 2007 projections, PECOTA projected an OPS from .749 (10th) to 1.009 (90th). I don;t know about you, but it certainly seems to me like a wide range of potential values that does take into consideration potential injuries, upside, etc.  

Morneau's 2007 .271/.343/.492 fell right around the 20th/27th/33rd percentile projections, respectively.

For Mauer's .293/.382/.426, he was at 11th/20th/13th percentile respectively.

On the other hand, Hunter's .287/.334/.505 was at 62nd/47th/78th percentile projections.

by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Marcel was way optimistic
I projected out the total runs scored/allowed for all AL teams using Marcel, and compared to the 2007 AL league averages. I found it was 4.5% too optimistic on offense and 3.0% too optimistic for pitching. What does that mean? It means that each team ends up with about an extra 37 runs scored and 19 fewer runs allowed. This may not seem like much, but when you apply James' pythagorean formula, a 775-775 RF-RA average 81-81 team turns into an 812-756, 87-75 team. That's a built-in bias of 6 wins.

As a result, my initial projection of 86-87 wins for the Twins (without Santana) was really about a .500 record once I corrected for the bias. We were 785-722 before and 748-741 after correcting.  

PECOTA showed much less bias when projecting for entire teams, less than 0.5% in both RF/RA relative to league averages. The bad news is that my application of PECOTA projects us at a 74-88 record next year, 83-79 before we traded Santana.

by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Mean Projection?
As I understand it, this is supposed to be a mean projection, right?

Because when I look at this, I think my mode (most likely) estimate would be the following:

Mauer: .300/.390/.435 (small uptick)
Morneau: .275/.360/.490 (I don't get where they get the slugging number, and I think his walks will be higher if his power stays up later in the year).

Here's where the concept of the mean comes into play. I would expect Mauer to have much more range on the low side than the high side. He could hig .315+.400+.450+, but he's not going to hit .400/.500/550 or anything. So the risk is on the low end, which brings down the mean, which is why their projection makes some sense to me. If he had a bad start, or an injury issue, he could easily wind up with .265/.350/.380.

But this is where I don't understand the Morneau projection. I don't think he is likely to SIGNIFICANTLY underpeform this line. I do think there is a possibility that he busts out another .310+.375+.550+, which should bring up the mean score.

Anyway, I don't know how they come up with distributions. Do they use the empirical distribution based on the peer group, or do they use the peer group for the mean, with some kind of curve fitting based on a wider group to get the shape of the likelihoods of the outcomes?

by snolls on Feb 5, 2008 9:39 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Different distributions for each player
Along with the weighted means, BP also posts a number of other PECOTA distribution values.

Breakout Rate: % chance of 20% improvement in EqR/27 compared to average of last three seasons.
Improve Rate: % chance that EqR/27 will improve at all over the average of last three seasons.
Collapse Rate: % chance that EqR/27 will decline by at least 20% over last three seasons.
Attrition Rate: % chance that a player's PA will decline by at least 50% relative to forecast.
Beta: Measure of volatility, higher than 1.0 is riskier, lower is less risky.

For Morneau, PECOTA projects 7/36/27/3/0.89 Breakout/Improve/Collapse/Attrition/Beta.
For Mauer, the numbers are 10/31/36/9/0.94.

Basically, Mauer is more likely to breakout in 2008, but he's also more likely to collapse or have fewer than 280 PA (50% of his 2008 projection).

by Adam Peterson on Feb 6, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

TT is an SB Nation blog of, by and for the fans. We strive to be the best Minnesota Twins blog by providing quality content and analysis, as well as daily news and notes on the team. We hope you'll make Twinkie Town your home for all things Twins!
Start posting about the Twins »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Organization Review (Relief Pitchers)
Small
On Roy, Ramos, and RISK

Recent FanPosts

Small
Josh Johnson
Small
Anybody want to talk revenues?
Joel87bw5_small
Signing up for the Minors
Small
Roy, Ramos, and RISK, Part II
Small
30 Cents on the Dollar = 2B Indifference
P1060527_small
New Uni Thoughts
Small
Minor League Report...November 14, 2009
Pose_small
Prediction Time (My Guess at 2010 Organizational teams)

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Twinkie Town On Twitter

SPONSORS


Editor-In-Chief

Twinkietown_small Jesse

Senior Writer

Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler

The_jet_small cmathewson

Gladdentwins_small Adam Peterson

Hosken_powell_autograph_small RandBall's Stu