Different Managing Styles

by Aaron Fix on Mar 26, 2008 3:08 PM EDT Comment 12 comments

Near the end of June 2007, the Boston Red Sox called up CF Jacoby Ellsbury from their AAA affiliate. He shuffled back and forth between AAA and MLB before making the playoff roster and eventually helping the team win a world series. In 127 regular season plate appearances, he hit .353/.394/.509. In the playoffs, he managed .360/.429/.520 in 28 plate appearances. He is young talented and full of potential, and has shown that he can deliver on the biggest stage, but has struggled a little in spring training and is still only 24 years old.

Here's Red Sox Manager Terry Francona on his decision to bat Jacoby Ellsbury low in the order:

"You put a young player a little bit at risk when you put him right at the top of the lineup early on," Boston manager Terry Francona said. "I know what he hit last year. It was impressive, but you're still trying to develop guys."

In the middle of May 2007, the New York Mets called up CF Carlos Gomez to the major league roster. He more or less stuck, but suffered a serious injury to his wrist in early July that kept him out of the majors for two months. He stuck despite hitting .232/.288/.304. He is young, talented and full of potential but has yet to perform on the biggest stage, and had his first and only season in the majors interrupted by an injury that has been known to decrease a player's ability to hit for power. Baseball Prospectus says that due to the Mets' carelessness in bringing him up too early and his injury, 2007 was a complete waste in terms of his development. This spring, his hitting coach expressed concern that he was swinging so hard that he could easily hurt his back (his manager encouraged him to swing harder). He started out abysmally this spring before getting hot late (though he still has a lower OBP than either of the guys he beat out for the starting job in CF). He is only 22 years old.

Here's Twins Manager Ron Gardenhire on his decision to bat Carlos Gomez leadoff:

"Gomez real good... (grunting)... me like Carlos Gomez... (beating chest)... he run hard like Nick Punto. Also play bad like Nick Punto. If him not hit leadoff, Nick Punto. What on base percentage?"

Gardenhire and Francona each have their own method of nurturing their young talent. Who is right? I guess all we can do is sit back and see which player has the better year.

http://noblingblings.blogspot.com/

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I thought

this was possibly going to be insightful 75 words in.

Oh well.

by TMW on Mar 26, 2008 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Aaron

highlights an interesting point in how Gardenhire's management style is more aggressive than the style of a different manager who had to develop a player in a similar situation. Sure, a real quote from Gardy probably would have read better and brought the FanPost full circle, but it doesn't make the accuracy of Gardenhire's style any less real.

Gardenhire's management style is definitely something that's worth looking into a bit more in-depth thought. This is a good introduction.

by Jesse on Mar 26, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is it though?

I think Matt Garza, Jason Bartlett, Jason Kubel, and Johan Santana among others might have sharply different opinion. Did we so soon forget Ramon Ortiz, Sidney Ponson, Tony Batista, and Juan Castro?

If anything this faith in Gomez is an anamoly that this site has been encouraging.

by TMW on Mar 26, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Do you think

that the site, in general, is doing the right thing by encouraging the faith in Gomez?

by Jesse on Mar 26, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure

I personally would have given the job to Pridie or Span, but we all knew that the CF on April 1 was getting that lead off spot. I think it's quite likely that Gomez is going to show some dazzling signs but ultimately prove he needs to work on his swing. I expect Pridie or Span to be up by May 1, whoever is hitting better in AAA.

My point is that picking Gomez and hitting him lead off says nothing about Gardy because it's such an anamoly. Consider Jason Bartlett's frustratingly steady stay at the 9 hole in 2006, even after Nick Punto hit one HR in August and started thinking he could pull the ball, making him an out machine ever since, even in October. That's Gardy lineup managing to me.

And the comparison to Francona is ridiculous. Where did anyone expect Ellsbury to hit in that lineup? Was he expected to lead off Ellsbury and have hit Pedroia in the bottom of the order? Or hit Youk behind Manny and not have him on-base 40% of the time while Ortiz and Ramirez are hitting? Francona's got a glut of talent and that forces his decision to "allow Ellsbury to develop" at the bottom of the order. If Gomez hits at the bottom of the order, who leads off? Harris?

by TMW on Mar 27, 2008 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2-17

What you neglected to add was that Gomez was hitting .260/.330/.380 before his injury. Then he had a 12-week layoff and he went 2-17 with three walks, which forced his small sample numbers into the toilet. Not many veterans can come in cold in a playoff chase after 12 weeks of not swinging the bat and hit. Gomez had 108 at bats in his career and the Mets expected him to save them from their tailspin without a rehab assignment.

I don't think last year was a complete waste. He did well in AAA, and ideally, he would have stayed there. But when he played regularly in the majors, he held his own. That gave him confidence that he can do it when healthy and playing regularly.On the other hand, if they had kept him in AAA and he had not been injured, he would have been a top 20 overall prospect and maybe the Mets make him untouchable.

You can argue that he should hit down in the order to protect him. Perhaps. On the other hand, he seems to thrive with more at bats. And hitting him in front of Mauer can't hurt. Even Nick Punto hit .290 in front of Mauer and Punto doesn't deserve to carry Gomez's water offensively.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 26, 2008 7:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

according to baseball reference dot com...

gomez was hitting .250/.303/.3303 when he got injured.

That said, I ilke Gomez a lot. I'm really excited about how good he can be. I just hope the Twins will do what's right for him, and I'm really not sure they are.

http://noblingblings.blogspot.com/

by Aaron Fix on Mar 26, 2008 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apples & Oranges

Red Sox would have enough ML quality outfielders to cover the positions even if they left Ellsbury in AAA - the makeup of their roster gives Francona the luxury of bringing him along more slowly.

Twins can't say that about either Gomez or Span - they need whichever one plays (it wouldn't surprise me, though it would disappoint me, if both wound up playing significant time this year) to be a ML quality outfielder or they're going to have a big hole in their lineup.

Once you decide one of them is going to be playing, you might as well bat him in the slot he's been groomed for from the beginning.

Beyond which - leadoff hitter is only guaranteed to "lead off" once per game & after that, ever spot in the lineup could find itself "leading off" in any particular inning.

by BD57 on Mar 26, 2008 9:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

Teams like the Sox and Yankees have the luxury of bringing a player along slowly

by guinness junky on Mar 26, 2008 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the opposite

Teams like the Red Sox and Yankees face a tremendous amount of pressure to win now. Francona does have more leadoff options, but the idea that there is less pressure for him to bat a young star near the top of the order is incorrect.

For the Twins, .500 will be an achievement this season. Twins management has a full year of baseball to play with the primary goal of developing the team into one that will be competitive in 2009 and 2010. The Twins can take (and are taking) the conservative approach with Liriano, but are not doing so with Gomez.

http://noblingblings.blogspot.com/

by Aaron Fix on Mar 28, 2008 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not just about "leading off"

The biggest thing about the leadoff role isn't about starting innings (although that's certainly what usually gets a leadoff man picked) as much as the fact that an everyday leadoff man will get more plate appearances than everyone else on the team. If Gomez is going to OPS 600 again, it's probably best to give those extra plate appearances to someone else, unless you're willing to write them off for the sake of getting Gomez the extra experience.

Personally, I'm fine with them giving Gomez the leadoff role for now, as I don't really know who else would realistically get put there - Mauer would probably be the best option, but I don't see Gardy doing that because Mauer's not a classic speedster, and Gomez is the only one of those in the regular starting lineup unless Punto is playing.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Mar 27, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure that it's fair to say

that the other teams have the "luxury" of bringing a player along more slowly.

The twins had the option (and money) to sign Lofton, Patterson or Cameron, trade for Crisp, start Pridie or Span. They have decided to put their top prospect on the field because they think he's the best of the group right now, or because they feel a need to field one of the prospects that Santana brought in. They also could bat Mauer leadoff. Basically, I'm not sure the Twins were forced to put him in the position they have.

by snolls on Mar 27, 2008 7:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs