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Could the Twins add The Big Hurt?

 

 

 

Star-divide

No, and that is really depressing. It's not because we couldn't afford him, we certainly could, and his big right-handed bat would fit really nice right there between Mauer and Morneau. Do you think the Twins might hit a few more right-handed homers with him batting in the middle of the order?

Signing Thomas would mean releasing Monroe, which is already a good idea even without Thomas on the team. But Thomas wants to play more than once every 3 days against lefties, and the Twins already have a good young left-handed DH. And unfortunately, the Twins have given themselves a glut of half decent to pretty good major league outfielders so it would be hard to get Kubel into the field on a regular basis to let Thomas DH. Unfortunately, the holes in the Twins lineup are at the left side of the infield. You could argue that all the outfield spots are holes, but the Twins have committed themselves to a few young guys with a lot of upside, and there is no reason to mess with their playing time.

But when I go to bed tonight you can be I'll be dreaming about the Big Hurt crushing long balls off of Mark Buerhle in Chicago.

Can anyone think of a way the Twins could make this work? I sure can't.

 

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No thanks

The guy is the biggest baby in the game (literally). Any player who would refuse to shake the hands of his teammates because he was benched should be benched for good.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 20, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

DH

I am wholly opposed to any move that takes playing time away from Kubel. I am sure that many of you would agree with me.

by WITwinsfan on Apr 20, 2008 9:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Give him a month or so

to stew in his own juices. If he gets a job before that, great. If not, I’ll bet you dollars to donuts he changes his tune fast.

by Neil on Apr 20, 2008 10:08 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

um

He’s still very much a 30 homerun threat and has averaged 100 RBI in the past two seasons. He’ll find a job in less than a month.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Apr 20, 2008 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, I agree.

I was just hoping he has some time off, so playing for the Twins would look good to him.

by Neil on Apr 21, 2008 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

bonds

How much do you want to bet that Bonds and Thomas will be training together soon? They might even listen to the same phone as they wait.

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by Andersklasen on Apr 20, 2008 10:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Toronto is still paying Thomas' salary

unlike Bonds. Is it possible a 100+ OPS DH and unquestioned hall of famer could sign up with a contender for close to league minimum?

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Apr 20, 2008 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I echo the sentiments

I’d love for the Twins to sign Thomas, but the only way I can see them having an everyday spot for him (once Cuddyer is back) is to platoon Kubel and Young in LF, and I’d rather not take at-bats away from two key young players.

Besides, if the Twins are going to sign a future Hall of Fame unemployed DH, they could do better.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Apr 21, 2008 1:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

+1

I’ve been hoping since last year that the Twins would pick Bonds up. The man can absolutely demolish a baseball, and it doesn’t matter that he is a lefty, nor that he is nearly 150 years old.

Still its not going to happen, because the Twins just aren’t likely to give up on Monroe, just like they didn’t on RonDL, and they won’t on Everett.

by snolls on Apr 21, 2008 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not as much about Monroe

The guy that really took Barry’s spot was Delmon Young – before that trade, the Twins could’ve picked up Bonds to share LF-DH with Kubel. Monroe could even have stayed on as a bench bat and occasional platoon partner with Kubel. Now, though, they just don’t have room – Bonds and Thomas wouldn’t sign as platoon players. Like TMW said below, signing either of them would require a season-ending injury. If Delmon falls down a sewer grate or something, I’d personally go with Bonds, but if money is a factor or they think that the whole media circus/trial thing is just too much, you could do a lot worse at DH than Frank Thomas for the league minimum (I doubt he’s going to trigger much of a bidding war).

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Apr 21, 2008 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

NOOOOO!
the Twins could’ve picked up Bonds to share LF-DH with Kubel. Monroe could even have stayed on as a bench bat and occasional platoon partner with Kubel

Bary Bonds should never play in the field again. He is really bad. Perhaps Kubel can handle right field regularly, but I wouldn’t want him in left regularly. He might not be limping anymore, but he is not fast enough to cover the spacious left field in the Dome.

Young is the best left fielder this team has had in a long while. In the Dome, that means a lot.

I just don’t understand the fascination with 40-something sluggers who can hardly run at all clogging up the bases and messing up the clubhouse. I want no part of either Bonds or Thomas.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 21, 2008 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey now

“Clogging up the bases”? I had no idea that Dusty Baker had joined Twinkie Town. I can understand the clubhouse concerns (although I think they’re greatly overblown), but “slugg[ing]” and “clogging up the bases” are weak points of the Twins offense – they need someone who can get on base reliably and knock the ball over the wall. Bonds gets on-base almost half the time and hits homers at a higher rate than anyone who has played for the Twins since Killebrew.

Anyway, we’re all in agreement that it’s a moot point now that Delmon is around – if the Twins were going to get Bonds, they’d have done it while they had the roster space in the offseason.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Apr 21, 2008 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Overstatement

I overstated the case with the clogging the bases comment. But there is more here than meets the eye. Say you bring one of these guys in for a year, on a team that likely won’t contend anyway. He obviously has a big impact on the way the team hits together. It would be a really tough adjustment for them next year, delaying their ability to ultimately contend.

One of the things that excites me is the Twins have a chance to have roughly the same line-up for several years in a row. Guys can relax and learn to lean on each other, and learn that they don’t have to do it themselves. When that happens, the guys start hitting to their natural ability rather than trying to do to much. If you delay that gelling process, it delays your ultimate ability to contend. I’m not saying it would happen, but why take the risk when it won’t help you win that many more games now?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 21, 2008 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There's the key
Say you bring one of these guys in for a year, on a team that likely won’t contend anyway

I think “a team that likely won’t contend anyway” is the most important part of that. If the Twins were a team that was built to take their one great shot this year (like, say, if they’d kept Santana), I’d be all for picking up Bonds, platooning Kubel and Young in left field, and going for all the marbles. But I completely agree with you that if you don’t think the team is a contender this year, you don’t make that move and let the young guys develop.

I don’t really know whether I buy the lineup continuity argument, by the way – the Twins’ best recent lineup was in 2006, spurred on largely by changing the lineup midseason (Punto and Bartlett replacing Batista and Castro) and with lots of players in new roles (Cuddyer in the cleanup spot, Castillo’s first year with the Twins, etc.). I don’t think having the same group of players in the lineup is anywhere near as important as having the best group of players in the lineup.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Apr 21, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Big Skirt

It’s just so tempting because he’s so dangerous in the Metrodome. But yeah, barring a season ending injury, there’s just no way to swing it.

by TMW on Apr 21, 2008 11:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

huh?
I just don’t understand the fascination with 40-something sluggers who can hardly run at all clogging up the bases and messing up the clubhouse. I want no part of either Bonds or Thomas.

Bonds OPS+ last 5 years:
231
263
174
156
170

Even assuming that he doesn’t post another 150-170 OPS+, considering that the highest OPS+ for the Twins last year was Justin Morneau with 121 (Unless you count Johan Santana’s 184 in 7 ABs), I’d let him “clog up the bases” all he wants. This is all moot due to the fact that he really doesn’t fit with the team as currently constructed (and I’m not in favor of aquiring him for that reason), but to reject him on the basis of poor defense and “base clogging” is patently ridiculous. Hell, the guy hasn’t posted an OBP lower than .400 since 1999. If you throw out his injury-shortened 1999 season he hasn’t had a sub-.400 OBP since his age 24 season in 1989... Last year it was .480 and his career mark is .444. A stronger case can be made against Frank, but it would have more to do with our roster construction and his projected offensive productivity than with poor defense or “base clogging.”

I guess you’d have to ask the Twins’ players, but I imagine they could put up with someone like Bonds in the clubhouse if he’s performing on the field. This guy is historically great.

by serq on Apr 21, 2008 2:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Not just bad legs

I also mentioned that he’s a cancer in the clubhouse. I’ll add that he’s on a par with Thomas in that regard. The Twins are trying to build something here for the long term. You don’t do that by bringing in bad apples to spoil the bunch. The guys they have in the clubhouse are still learning each other. When they do, they;ll play better together. Adding Bonds or scuttles any hope of that happening.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 21, 2008 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give Bonds a break

Show me where any of his teammates have complained about him? I’m not saying you can’t find an example, but before you call dude a “cancer in the clubhouse,” show me a concrete example. Except Jeff Kent. Don’t give me anything Jeff Kent has said, because that’s garbage.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Apr 21, 2008 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I could site you chapter and verse

But I don’t have time. He has a long and storied history of showing up opponents, dissing teammates, and generally acting like an ass. He’s the Ty Cobb of his time.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 21, 2008 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ty Cobb

Really? Bonds is a virulent, loudmouthed, racist drunk? I missed that one.

formerly known in these parts as adamb

by ravenfly on Apr 22, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not in the same way

Why did people hate Ty Cobb? Not for his off-field behavior, which was, as you say, virulent, loudmouthed, racist, and drunk (I’ll add that he was a drug addict). People hated Cobb because he played with a fundamental disrespect of his opponents and many of his teammates. In that respect, Bonds is the Cobb of his generation.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 22, 2008 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Please

At what point did Bonds try to injure an opponent by going at them with his cleats or go into the stands to attack a jeering fan?

The whole “Bonds as a cancer” thing is way overblown at this point, and comparisons like this only serve to blow the matter even farther out of proportion. He cheated, just like a lot of his peers did-just like Gaylord Perry, Hall of Famer did, for that matter-and he was smug and a jerk to the media. But there’s a big gap between being a jerk like Bonds and being Ty Cobb.

If you must make a comparison, Pete Rose late in his career (willing to do anything to get an edge, broke an important rule, was extremely self-centered, not fan-friendly) is a way better comparison to Bonds late in his career than Ty Cobb.

by ubelmann on Apr 22, 2008 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I don't care if he has no feet!"
At what point did Bonds try to injure an opponent by going at them with his cleats or go into the stands to attack a jeering fan?

Not only that, but the guy he went into the stands to attack had no hands.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Apr 22, 2008 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You win

I wasn’t talking about cheating, though.

I was just thinking about the 600 home run walks, not trots, walks. Nobody in this generation showed up their opponents more than Barry Bonds. There’s a fine line between showmanship and making the opponent look bad. The only reason he didn’t get drilled every night is because he wore body armor.

But it is not on the same level as sharpening cleats to hurt people or bunting at the first baseman so you had a chance to bowl him over and hopefully knock the ball out of his glove or starting fights with defenseless fans. So again, you win.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 22, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What happened to evidence to support your claims

Maybe the kids could learn something from the all time home run king. And excuse me but the ‘06 A’s did just fine despite Frank Thomas’ efforts to poison their clubhouse (note sarcasm, because Oakland’s clubhouse was not actually poisoned). Did the A’s make it to the post-season in ‘06? I can’t remember…

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Apr 22, 2008 12:55 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough

The truth is, all those stories are in archives that are only searchable in a limited way. Stats are easy to find. Clubhouse stories are difficult to find, partly because there’s a sign on every clubhouse entrance that says, ” What happens in here stays in here.”

Philosophically, I believe intangibles have an affect on winning and losing. But if you could prove it, it wouldn’t be an intangible. I’m not a skeptic or a reductionist. I believe reality is much more complex than what we can see through the lenses we create to view it. And I think we need to approach reality with the humility that our ability to understand things is limited. We don’t have all the answers. All theories are works in progress. We learn new things all the time that don’t fit our theories, and we adjust our theories as we go.

I don’t have a lot of time for people who act as though the theories we use to prove our points about baseball are definitive. They’re young theories. Baseball is a complex game. The theories represent the best we can do right now. And I try to use it as much as I can. But I’m not going to demand that this one perspective is the only valid one. Because the theories are works in progress, people have valid things to say outside of the theories—scouts for example. Why do players tend to have a different perspective than bloggers? Because they see things everyday that don’t fit the theories.

Why am I telling you this? Well, I don’t think everything we say needs to be justified by hard evidence, because sometimes we don’t have hard evidence even though what we say might be true. In cases where we can get the evidence (in principle), what is it worth to us to demand evidence in cases where the effort required to attain it far outweighs the value of the thing we’re trying to prove? That has objective and subjective elements. I’ll be the first to admit that the subjective outweighed the objective in my case.

In my case, I was working on my thesis, a book proposal, and an executive presentation in three other windows on my screen. The claim that Bonds is a cancer in the clubhouse is a moot point, so the value of proving it was overwhelmed by the effort it would take to prove it.

Right now I’m listing to a presentation and typing to keep myself awake, so this post is worth the effort for me. I hope it was worth the effort for those who actually got through it.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 22, 2008 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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