Gardenhire Returns Fire

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 7:47 AM EDT in News

Twins field manager won't let outside influences run his team.

"I just back into town and I hear all this stuff, and Buster Olney is making my team up now and [Genske] wants to tell me who is going to pitch here ... No one is going to tell us who to put on our team and no one on ESPN is going to tell us who should pitch for my team. They haven't been here all year. If they had been down there and seen the guy pitch, and then started talking, that's one thing. But to read stats, that's another thing. I recommend they go down there and watch him pitch, come back with a good report for me and walk into my office."

I have to admit, reading these quotes this morning gave me a little bit more respect for Ron Gardenhire. In today's game it's common for players and agents to discuss disatisfaction with decisions of the organization, just as it's common for the media to question and condemn decisions the team has made. I'm no exception to this rule, as I question something as minute as why a guy is hitting seventh instead of eighth.

There's little doubt that the Twins have made, and will continue to make, choices that baffle and frustrate us as fans. But the last thing we should really want them to do is to listen to every source that causes a fuss, and then pander to those critics. That's a dangerous and destructive path, because as informed and intelligent as some of our contrary beliefs are, allowing something as trivial as media unrest and player complaints to impact organizational decisions would be a demonstration of inadequacy, lack of vision and leadership.

Having the right to their own choice, and the fact that the team actually has a good choice or two to make, is a good thing. The team has already made good decisions on guys like Brian Buscher, Alexi Casilla and Denard Span. Holding back Francisco Liriano just for the sake of holding him back doesn't make any sense, whether you want to consider financial aspects, Liriano's track record in recent starts, or the team's track record in promoting young players from their system.

"He's pitching well, and he's trying to force the issue ... And what should all Minor Leaguers try to do? Try to force the issue. That's the greatest thing in the world. We have depth, now. We have a guy that is knocking on the door and trying to take someone's job. What is wrong with that? I don't get it."

The Minnesota Twins know how Francisco Liriano is doing in Rochester. They also understand pennant races, personnel decisions and how to move forward with their choice of direction. Buster Olney and Greg Genske's stances should mean absolutely nothing.

"[Liriano] was here earlier. How did he do? How did he do?"

For all of what Gardenhire had to say, check out Thor Nystrom's piece over at MLB.com.

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Comments

Those quotes are all well and good

and you are right, Jesse, that they shouldn’t let the media or agents dictate personnel moves, but:

1. Liriano is one of the organization’s best pitchers—he ought to be here; last night was something of a waste

2. They have to be a little careful not to alienate him—he’s too important to their future.

by Eric in Madison on Jul 18, 2008 9:17 AM EDT 0 recs

Fair enough...

1. Liriano is one of the organization’s best pitchers—he ought to be here; last night was something of a waste

I’d argue it was better for him to be left in Rochester so he could be actively pitching during the All-Star break. Bringing him up on the schedule he’d been on, he’d have pitched once for the Twins and then sat for a week.

2. They have to be a little careful not to alienate him—he’s too important to their future.

I think Genske needs to be careful that he doesn’t alienate his client from the team. Believing that the Twins are purposefully leaving Liriano in the minors just because they want to is absurd. You’re absolutely right-Liriano is important to this team’s future-but the Twins know that. They’ll find a way to get him up, but baseball rosters aren’t run like video game rosters. Any move-hopefully a move on Hernandez-will take a little time.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up 0 recs

here's the problem ...

people around here – can’t give you any names because I don’t remember – openly talked about the advantage the Twins would gain by leaving Liriano in the minors for a while on ‘service time’ grounds.

If we’re talking about it, you can bet it was a topic of discussion by agents, players, etc.

There’s a basic logic in the claim – “decisions are being made for financial, not baseball, reasons” – even if I think it’s unreasonable. Cisco wasn’t sent down there to become “decent” – he dominated in 2006 and the Twins need him to become dominant again. It’s only now that he’s rounding into that sort of form.

The problem for the Twins is the influence agents have on players – way back in 1996, when Shaq left Orlando, it was because the agent didn’t like the ‘off field’ opportunities in Florida as much as those he had available in Los Angeles.

You can bet this agent’s already whispering “Santana left for more $$$; so did Hunter; it’s only _ years until you can too.”

by BD57 on Jul 18, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up 0 recs

Well...

You can bet this agent’s already whispering "Santana left for more $$$; so did Hunter; it’s only _ years until you can too."

That’s an extraordinarily pessimistic appraisal of the situation, and good lord I hope that’s not the case. The guy’s barely into his major league career and his agent is already telling him about getting out? I have to believe that’s incredibly premature at this point. If Liriano were in his fourth or fifth year under team control I could buy it, but not now.

That’s not so say that there’s zero financial reasons for the Twins doing what they’re doing-but because of the team situation at the moment-being so close to the White Sox and being in an excellent position for October going forward—it doesn’t make sense that right now they’d be worried about the extra couple million dollars it might cost them in a year.

At any rate, I sincerely hope that’s not what’s happening with a guy who’s just 24, and who won’t reach free agency until what…28? Because if so, then this franchise is in major, major, major trouble.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up 0 recs

If he's pitching better than the others in the rotation...

...it makes no sense to leave him here and I’ve long since tired of the Twins organizational movement.

If the Twins ARE doing it just to avoid salary (and here I’m assuming that’s a violation of the labor agreement) they deserve to lose him.

Dear Firpo, looks like my stock is fine.

by MNPundit on Jul 19, 2008 1:40 AM EDT up 0 recs

I'm ticked

Gardy was the one who forced the issue and brought him up when everyone knew he wasn’t ready yet. He said, “We all know he pitches better up here than down there, so we’ll bring him up and give him a shot.” That was against the Cliburn’s advice and every other scout in the system’s advice. Now he wants to punish Liriano for sucking early?

If they had just done this right and let Liriano have a couple of months in the minors, there would be no question that, now that he’s ready, he belongs in the majors. It’s not like he’s some prospect who’s never done it before. The only reason he is where he is is the injury. Well, now he’s healthy and its in the best interests of everybody that he get his job back.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 9:17 AM EDT 0 recs

Where Cisco started the season doesn't bother me.

With the Twins or the Red Wings, he wasn’t ready. They gave him his shot and he came up short, and that’s fine.

Liriano should be with the Twins now, I believe that. But filing a grievance? Get a grip, Genske. Your guy had his opportunity and couldn’t cut it, and the team is now doing what they feel is in their best interest. It’s not like the Twins are going to leave him in Rochester all season—but now that he’s proven he’s ready, they need to grant the Twins time to make a spot for him. That means exploring trade options, and who can go to the bullpen or back to Rochester, and of course DFA options.

Following Cisco’s back-to-back sub-par starts in June, the Twins said they’d need a string of quality starts before they brought him up. Now they have that string. The ticking clock has only truly started about a week ago, when the Twins got their wish and Liriano gave them what they wanted.

They’ll make a move on Liriano, but people are acting like this is something that’s two months overdue. With the deadline coming up, if we’re still watching him buzzsaw his way through triple-A hitters in 10 or 12 days, then I’ll be upset. But we knew what the Twins wanted, and until about a week ago they didn’t have it. Now they do, and I believe they’ll make their move.

They’d better.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 9:48 AM EDT up 0 recs

Wait a minute

I was under the impression that the prevailing opinion on Liriano was that he started in the majors largely because he wasn’t taking his work seriously and believed that he was ready, and the organization believed that starting him in the majors to let him see just how behind he was would be a useful message. I didn’t hear anything that suggested that Gardy had a disproportionately large voice in the matter.

I also disagree with the characterization of his stint in the minors as a “rehab assignment”. Yeah, he was coming off an injury. He also was healthy enough that he was actually playing, and playing poorly not due to actual injury, but due to poor conditioning and changed mechanics (due to the old injury, not a present one). The demotion seemed to me to be more to regain his skill (and refine his new technique) than any sort of actual rehabilitation.

I agree that he should be brought up sooner than later, but I don’t see this as anything approaching an emergency, and I don’t think he has anything approaching standing for a grievance.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 18, 2008 12:03 PM EDT up 0 recs

Gardy was the one calling for Liriano early on

After they sent him back down, they rationalized this as a wake-up call for everyone in the organization that he was not ready, including Liriano. But they should have known based on Stu Cliburn’s advice that he wasn’t ready. Liriano should not be blamed for being called up prematurely, the organization should be blamed for it.

All he had to do was ignore what Anderson tried to do in remaking his delivery. Anderson wanted him to throw slower and more over the top to get more ground balls. Liriano tried this, and it didn’t work. When he reverted to his old arm slot, he started throwing lights out. Since that mechanical adjustment, he’s 8-0 with a minuscule ERA and more strikeouts than innings pitched. He also has much better control, walking fewer than a batter per nine over that time.

Rehab assignments are not just to get guys healthy. They’re for building up arm strength, rediscovering mechanics, fine-tuning control—all sorts of stuff you don’t want to expose to major league hitters.

Yes, Liriano was healthy. But he wasn’t throwing his normal way until June. At that point, the clock should be ticking to get him back up here. I expected they’d make a move over the all-star break. When they didn’t I started getting impatient. If they don’t make a move soon, the impatience will turn into a full-blown, five-alarm Bartlett situation.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 12:14 PM EDT up 0 recs

Wow

“I expected they’d make a move over the all-star break. When they didn’t I started getting impatient.”

In case you haven’t noticed the Twins have played exactly 0 games since that point. Actually, calling him up during the all-star break would have given him one less start in AAA, so why would they have called him up then?

Talk about impatient- he was terrible until the beginning of June. He’s been pretty good since then, but the team has been winning, which would seem to make the team a little more hesitant to bring him up.

by Diggity Dino on Jul 18, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up 0 recs

Pretty good

He’s been pretty good since then

Here are his starts since June 30:
Jun 30 LHV Win: 7.0 innings 4 hits 0 Runs 1BB 9 K
Jul 05 BUF Win 6.0 innings 3 hits 0 Runs 1BB 7K
Jul 10 @DUR Win 7.0 innings 3 Hits 1BB 8K
Jul 17 NOR Win 8.0 Innings 7 Hits 1 Run 0BB 8K

That’s not pretty good. That’s dominant. That’s what they said they were looking for. Rob Antony over the break said they now had to make room for him. Both Smith and Gardy have backed off of that. Now, according to KThor Nystrom, Gardy doesn’t want to talk about calling Liriano up. He doesn’t want to think about it. So it won’t happen, I guess. Hence my impatience.

BTW, Kelly Theiser got another story wrong, claiming that Liriano will file a grievance. That is not true, his agent said he would ask the union to investigate whether a grievance should be filed or not. There’s a big difference between those two things.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 1:05 PM EDT up 0 recs

Whoa there

Now, according to KThor Nystrom, Gardy doesn’t want to talk about calling Liriano up. He doesn’t want to think about it. So it won’t happen, I guess. Hence my impatience.

Not wanting to talk about it is not the same as not wanting to think about it or saying it won’t happen. He’s said his piece – why bother saying the same thing over and run the risk of a quote getting taken out of context or something?

Also, Theiser’s story is actually correct – it’s the headline that’s wrong. That’s arguably more egregious, as the headline is the only thing a lot of people will read, but I don’t know whether the reporter or web editor is the one who writes them.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 18, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up 0 recs

Right

I just saw the whole interview, and he’s not as upset with Liriano as the quotes make him seem. But his comments praising Liriano in the whole interview were curiously left out of the rant. I don’t think Gardy’s anger will affect Liriano’s chance of coming up and making a difference.

You’re also right about the headline. But that is what I was objecting to. On the Web, people (and search engines) scan headlines and don’t necessarily read stories. Last week she had a headline that read “Bullpen Bails out Baker”. Baker pitched a great game that day and the headline totally dissed him. If you get nothing else right on the Web, get the headline right.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 4:21 PM EDT up 0 recs

I remember that one

If I’m recalling correctly, that was the Saturday Fox game against the Tigers, in which Baker was pulled after giving up a homer to make it 6-4, after which the bullpen promptly gave up another run and almost blew the game entirely. The bullpen almost failed Baker, not bailed him out.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 18, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up 0 recs

I don't know

It’s not like the Twins are going to leave him in Rochester all season

They might. Smith is saying there’s no time table. It’s easy to interpret that as, “I might not get called up all year.” If that were your mindset, wouldn’t you be frustrated. Then the minute you express frustration, Gardy is comparing you to a AA player and, in so many words, saying he won’t have you on his team. If there ever was a case for a grievance, Gardy just gave the union all it needs.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 10:12 AM EDT 0 recs

You're taking

Gardenhire’s comments out of context. He wasn’t comparing Liriano to a double-A player, he was talking about giving into what players and agents deem is right. And Gardy is right. When organizations start listening to agents and players for direction, they lose all control.

Besides, this is pretty recent. “We’re looking more for the seven, eight innings where he doesn’t walk many and he’s a little bit more in control of things,” Antony said July 1. “When you string three or four of those together, then you’re on a pretty good roll.”

Like I said, if we get to the deadline and we still don’t have him arond, I’ll join the chorus. But you have to give the Twins time to make their move.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 10:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

Whatever the intent of his words

The effect of them is to portray Liriano as just another minor leaguer, like Luke Hughes. But I think you will agree that Liriano is not just an ordinary minor leaguer who is itching for his first major league opportunity. He’s a major league player who is doing a glorified minor league rehab assignment. If they had put him on the DL and given him a rehab assignment, they would be required by rule to call him up after a month. Instead they optioned him out, giving him more time. I think that was in his best interests as long as he wasn’t ready. Now that he’s ready, the unofficial rehab assignment needs to end. By comparing him to any other minor leaguer, Gardy insulted him, intentionally or not.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 11:53 AM EDT up 0 recs

Liriano WAS the 2nd Coming of Santana.

He’s still within sight of that, and that means he is the most valuable piece in the minor league system today.

Dear Firpo, looks like my stock is fine.

by MNPundit on Jul 19, 2008 1:44 AM EDT up 0 recs

I dunno man

I just don’t know

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 18, 2008 10:15 AM EDT 0 recs

Jesse, I think you've nailed it

I don’t always agree with Gardy, but his argument is sound. He’s not arguing against Liriano DESERVING to be on the big league club. That’s not the argument. He’s taking issue with people trying to make personnel decisions for the team, which sets a dangerous precedent.

I think he’s also correct to dispute Liriano’s perceived performance based on only statistics. Yes, Hernandez is pitching terribly in the majors (thought you’d never get Gardy saying that on the record) and Liriano is pitching extremely well in the minors. He has to depend on his scouts and coaches to document Liriano’s progress coming back from an extremely delicate surgery. Gardenhire has more to worry about that just the statistics of his players, he’s got a clubhouse and the health of his players to manage . He’s angry that people outside the club are trying to make those decisions for him.

Does Liriano deserve to be back up with the big club? YES. Does he or his agent deserve the right to DEMAND a spot on the big club? Absolutely not. That’s why Gardy’s upset.

by Neil on Jul 18, 2008 10:59 AM EDT 1 recs

first of all

first of all, I love the writers name : Thor Nystrom.
second of all, I think Gardy ripped into the wrong reporter. It was Ken Rosenthal who got this all started not Buster Olney
third of all, Gardy had some great quotes!

Im not going to get all worked up over this issue. Liriano will be with the Twins soon

by DedicatedFollowerOfFashion on Jul 18, 2008 10:59 AM EDT 0 recs

Three reporters

Rob Neyer has been ripping the org for a month about this. Ken Rosenthal picked up that vibe and went with it. Buster Olney amplified the chorus of smart analysts who understand that the Twins are better with Liriano than Livan.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up 0 recs

ahhh

I dont have an ESPN Insider account, so I dont visit ESPN.com very much

by DedicatedFollowerOfFashion on Jul 18, 2008 11:56 AM EDT up 0 recs

Well, there are a couple of ways to look at this

which may be where the agita is coming from. While the idea of a grievance is silly, Gardenhire’s quotes are interesting.

He’s suggesting that Liriano is a “minor leaguer trying to force the issue” and that’s a good thing.

One wonders if Liriano (and his agent) see it a different way, to wit: Liriano is a major leaguer who has been on an extended injury rehab, and that he should have been up as soon as he was physically ready to pitch in the majors.

by Eric in Madison on Jul 18, 2008 11:07 AM EDT 0 recs

Tempest in a teapot

Liriano will be up here by the end of July. Period. End of story.

There is a pennant race and he is one of, if not the, best pitchers on the team.

All the rest is just noise.

The ironic thing is that in order to get rid of Livan, we have to hope he has a few good outings so that his trade value can be maximized, and yet, not too good so that the Twins are fooled into keeping him.

I can’t wait to see Liriano snap off that damn biting slider again. What a horse.

by Old Twins Cap on Jul 18, 2008 11:15 AM EDT 0 recs

Re:

Liriano will be up here by the end of July. Period. End of story.

That’s what we’re all hoping for.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 11:19 AM EDT up 0 recs

If not

The growing chorus of critics will create such a deafening roar that the organization will have to do something or face strong consequences. On the other hand, they are as likely to be defiant in the face of criticism as anything. “Don’t tell us how to run our team!” Load and clear Gardy.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 18, 2008 11:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Precedent

This is a lot like the Santana situation in 2003, when everyone was clamoring for the team to move him out of the bullpen and into the rotation. The Twins stuck to their guns then and made the move when they were ready; I don’t see why they’d operate any differently this time, especially since it requires a roster move rather than just switching roles on the pitching staff (Santana replaced Joe Mays).

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 18, 2008 12:09 PM EDT up 0 recs

Honestly,

I’d rather have the organization be wrong than listen to the media’s “deafening chorus”.

Of course I’d much prefer they’d just bring up Liriano now.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up 0 recs

why

why is it that Hernandez is the one to go. sure he is terrible, but what if one of the other pitchers stink it up for a few outings?
what if Sloweys finger thing is not resolved
what if (heaven forbid) one of the other pitchers have a serious injury

you just never know

by DedicatedFollowerOfFashion on Jul 18, 2008 11:22 AM EDT 0 recs

That's always the problem

with finding a guy a spot—you have to take it away from somebody else, and there are always situations you can’t account or prepare for. An injury might do the Twins a favor at this point.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up 0 recs

Gardy was obviously on a fishing trip over the break

I love how his quote starts with “I get back in to town and…”

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 18, 2008 12:42 PM EDT 0 recs

You Know

I take a Different Stance on this, I think he should have been up here before the allstar break, you know i have a feeling that Pohlad only kept Liriano down in Rochester so Liriano couldnt qualify for Arbitration/Super Two eligibility, Basically So Pohlad didnt have to Pay him, and you know thats the case, Pohlad is a complete Cheapskate, we saw it with Torri Hunter, I would much rather have seen Pohlad pay to keep Hunter and Trade away Johan for a Third Baseman perhaps….But that chances of them happening were slim because Pohlad is the Cheapest Owner in Baseball.

by Tony_O on Jul 18, 2008 1:07 PM EDT 0 recs

That's just not true.

Pohlad puts just as much of the team’s revenue into payroll as most of baseball. It’s a business, and he keeps the payroll around 52% of revenue. That’s exactly at, if not better than, league average.

by Jesse on Jul 18, 2008 3:38 PM EDT up 0 recs