Wanted: An Everyday Shortstop
Is there a good one even available?
The easy answer there is that someone is always available...it just depends on whether the team doing the shopping is willing to pay the price and if the targeted player is actually an improvement. After a bit of research, for your review I present what I believe to be the three best chances for the Twins to upgrade.
Jack Wilson, Pirates:
Pittsburgh's like Kansas City in that they're proverbially in the hole. They're actually right in the middle of the NL Central, but that still doesn't mean they're in any sort of hunt.
Wilson, 30, is having his best offensive year since '04, but spent most of April on May on the disabled list. Since his return he's struggled to manage extra-base hits, and is yet to hit a home run on the season, but he rarely strikes out and is a pretty decent contact hitter. While "another contact hitter" isn't an ideal pick up, he's still an upgrade over the Harris/Punto/Everett round table. He hit .296/.350/.440 last season, and as you can see is holding up pretty well this season, too.
What makes Wilson a good idea is that he's signed through next year, and is far from a superstar at the plate, which is something that would inflate his price tag. I think he's a better bottom-of-the-order hitter than top-of-the-order, but in an insane world I'd like to think Gardenhire could try Casilla/Wilson at the top of the order and slide Gomez into the 9-hole.
Ryan Theriot, Cubs:
Theriot, 28, is having one hell of a season for the Cubs, and has been their starting shortstop for a majority of the games this year. With Chicago bearing down on a division title, under realistic circumstances it'd be next to impossible to tear a starting shortstop away from a contending team. Luckily for me, I can play Devil's Advocate.
Chicago's likely "shortstop of the future" could be Ronny Cedeno, 25, who's had his share of starts at both second base and short this year. He's hitting .271/.343/.357 in 129 at-bats, which is still better than anything the Twins could throw out there. Additionally, while Theriot certainly isn't a bad hitter, this would be a great situation for the Cubs to sell high: He's a .286/.356/.374 career hitter.
But in spite of Theriot's profile, which suggests he probably wouldn't carry too high of a price tag, snagging him this season under his (and Chicago's) circumstances would mean he's near untouchable. Even if he wasn't untouchable, the Twins wouldn't have any worthwhile major league talent to ship in exchange. Also, just because Ryan would be easier to tear from the Cubs than Ronny, that doesn't mean it's realistic.
Oh well. It sounded good in my head.
Brian Roberts, Orioles:
I know, I know...Roberts isn't a shortstop. That's why he would be our second baseman and Alexi Casilla would slide over to short. And I know, I've been over this before. But I still think it's a good idea. In reality, whether Baltimore decides to foolishly turn into buyers or really commit to rebuilding an ancient team, we know that Roberts is for sale. We know Andy MacPhail approached the Twins in the off-season.
Roberts, at 30, is in the prime of his career on both sides of the ball. Not only is he a very good player, but he's signed through 2009 at a not unreasonable price, would give the Twins a great lead-off hitter, and as an added bonus has stolen more bases than Carlos Gomez. And look at those extra-base hits: 31 doubles. Playing the scenario on Roberts out to the end, the Twins would have a couple of options. First, they could always trade him if the team isn't condending. Second, they could let him walk after next season as he enters his likely declining years and collect a pair of draft picks from whoever signs him as a free agent. Neither of those options sound daunting.
The real trick in getting him would be whether or not Bill Smith and the Twins would be willing to pay the price. I believe Minnesota has what it would take to pry him out of Baltimore, and up to a certain point I think Roberts would be worth the risk.
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The problem with Roberts
Roberts is having his best big-league season since ‘05.
But the folks who found Rincon’s steroid use unacceptable – and went into great detail trying to show how his stats proved (to them) that Rincon benefited greatly from these mysterious substances – will have to pass. Roberts’ ‘05 stats just as convincingly show him to be a steroid user.
by Johnny Safron on Jul 3, 2008 11:43 PM EDT 0 recs
Ain't going to happen
The Twins will not give up major talent at this point, 2 games out of first. Why would they?
They will fill from within. Between Harris, Casilla, Tolbert, Punto, and Hughes, they’ve already got what it takes.
by Old Twins Cap on Jul 4, 2008 12:23 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Why Would They?
Because teams should always try to get better. The Twins could use another bat, not to mention just a better player at short, and Roberts in particular solves those issues and gives the Twins a great leadoff option.
Whether or not they will try to get better is a good question…history indicates they won’t. Unless I’m forgetting something, the last mid-season trade of merit was for Shannon Stewart, and that feels like it was longer ago than it actually was. I don’t want to say that the Twins offense isn’t sustainable…but it scares me. If they stop raking with RISP, they’re in massive trouble. Another bat would go a long way in alleviating that potential danger.
Honestly, I think you’re right—Harris, Casilla, Tolbert, Punto, whoever….the Twins will fill short internallly. But that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try to improve themselves.
by Jesse on
Jul 4, 2008 2:41 PM EDT
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Of those guys
Roberts really is a good player—much better than any of the Twins middle infielders. However, I suspect the price would be very high.
Jack Wilson has his ups and downs offensively, but is a better defensive player than anyone on the roster.
Theriot doesn’t really interest me.
There might be a few third basemen available as well, which would be another obvious place to upgrade.
by Eric in Madison on Jul 4, 2008 10:51 AM EDT 0 recs
Theriot
Theriot’s .390 OBP intrigues me, would fit well with Casilla at the top of the order (moving Gomez to #9). That said, I’m not sure I’d want to buy high from the Cubs.
Roberts is still my favorite option. He’d be expensive, but we have the pieces to get something done. Actually, I suspect that the holdup might ultimately be on Baltimore’s side. Roberts is about the only star left on the O’s after trading Bedard, Tejada, etc. MacPhail approached us in the offseason, but that was before the other trades.
IF we picked up Roberts, I’d be inclined to bat Casilla leadoff, Roberts #2 and move Gomez to #9. With Roberts’ gap power (31 doubles!), he could drive in a lot of Gomez-Casilla runs as well as set the table for Mauer and Morneau.
by Adam Peterson on Jul 4, 2008 11:27 AM EDT 0 recs
Other Options
I like the idea of continuing to get younger and build for 2010 and beyond. While none of these guys are old men, it’s more than likely the lot of them have already peaked out. I would rather ride out the remaining of the season with what we got and then bring in a blue chipper to man the position for 5-10. Personally, I think I appreciated Bartlett much more than most in the organization (Gardy in particular). And while he wasn’t the whole package he did have stellar range, a great arm, good speed and worked counts rather well for a guy who basically hit for zero power.
Anyways, I guy who could definitely fill Gardy’s substantial resume for SS (particularly someone who can “command” the infield) is Elvis Andrus. For anyone who isn’t familiar with the Rangers top prospect here’s a quick glimpse: Andrus was one of two centerpieces in the big Texeira trade last year and was originally signed out of Venezuela. He’s rather young still (not yet 20), but is considered to be a top defensive prospect with good speed and the tools to become an above average offensive prospect. A common comparison for him so far has been Edgar Renteria during his prime.
Right now he’s doing rather well in AA, .287/.345/.347. While that’s nothing amazing, remember he’s still a teenager at AA. Also he’s progressed substantially each month this year, finishing out a very promising June where he hit .309/.385/.397. Scouts say he’ll eventually hit for average power but who really cares as he’s already swiped 27 bags in 34 chances.
The kicker for Andrus is that his makeup is off the charts and his desire to win and be a leader on the field differentiates him from the rest of the field. Now, unfortunately he did go into this year as the #1 rated prospect in the Texas system by BA. On the other hand Texas already has an All-Star SS, who is showing little signs of aging, and a 2B who is really coming into his own this year. Also, Texas is still starved for starting pitching which we have plenty off. If I were in charge (I know, I know…) I’d continue to ride out Blackburn the rest of the season hoping he finishes strong. Then parlay off his success to Texas with a smattering of other pitching prospects. One thing I think we’ve certainly learned from the Tampa trade is that having, pitching prospects is one thing, but having proven prospects (ie Garza’s successful Major League showing) is worth so much more.
With Revere on his way one could certainly drool over a lineup built on speedsters and imagine havoc they’d reek on an unprepared league.
Lineup for 2011 Maybe late 2010?
Casilla 2B
Gomez RF
Mauer C
Morneau 1B
Young LF
Kubel/Cuddyer DH
Buscher/Valencia 3B
Andrus SS
Revere CF
(Not to mention Span and Tolbert on the bench)
Gardenhire's major league career: Banjo hitting, futility infielder who couldn't lick it.
Rick Anderson's major league career: Strikethrower who never made it happen with his sub 90's fastball.
Really gives a new definition to living vicariously through other people, don't it?
by caseintheface on Jul 4, 2008 12:36 PM EDT 0 recs
That's certainly
an interesting idea, but it would mean even more patience and continued reliance on the development of young position players. Not that that’s a bad thing, but personally I was hoping we’d find someone to help us out this year. Andrus does look like he could develop though…he’s a SB machine, could develop some gap power and maybe more once he fills out. He’s still a teenager.
Overall he’s a .266/.337/.352 hitter in the minors, but I think he can start topping that ceiling every year starting next year. He was strong last season, and he’s doing well this season in AA considering his age.
My question: Do you think he’d be ready by 2010, at age 21, to contribute to a team that will make a serious run at a championship?
by Jesse on
Jul 4, 2008 2:45 PM EDT
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He'll be young yes
But with the progression he’s made so far in AA he might not have to go back again. Then next year he’d have all year to play in AAA and hopefully a September call-up. Of course this is all wishful thinking to some degree but it’s nice to think about.
Gardenhire's major league career: Banjo hitting, futility infielder who couldn't lick it.
Rick Anderson's major league career: Strikethrower who never made it happen with his sub 90's fastball.
Really gives a new definition to living vicariously through other people, don't it?
by caseintheface on
Jul 5, 2008 12:21 PM EDT
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He'd be a good pickup.
I wouldn’t mind seeing him develop with us. I’ll have to keep an eye on him this season and see how he does.
by Jesse on
Jul 5, 2008 1:10 PM EDT
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Also...
if Revere continues to sport the same OBP skills and hitting skills he’s shown so far, there’s no way he should be at the bottom of the order. Here’s hoping he continues to rake!
by Jesse on
Jul 4, 2008 2:46 PM EDT
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Shortstop.......
Let me see…..... We could have had Jed Lowrie, Justin Masterson, Brandon Moss, AND our pick of Ellsbury or Lester….... We all thought the Yankees Deal was better. I TOLD you guys then and lets see…...... Lowrie – good SS , hit well when filling in for Lowell. would be a starter for the sox if they were’nt strangely behing Lugo. Masterson (the longshot) is what 4-1? Moss, won three games I know of for the sox with his bat, and what did lester do? Nothing compared to Hughes right?! Ellsbury…..... Great fielder and leads the league in stolen bases. Boy we screwed that up! Maybe we wont be so stupid this time around, but we will.
by realfan on Jul 4, 2008 10:11 PM EDT 0 recs
Wow.
Bit of an over-reaction there.
First, nobody was ever able to confirm that the Red Sox package you listed was actually on the table. Something similar was probably out there, considering how many sources were bantering those names around, but it was never confirmed as far as I’m aware.
Second, why are we still debating the Santana deal? Most people are happy with Gomez and Deolis Guerra, even if they aren’t going to reach their potential for a couple of years. Additionally, there’s no guarantee that those guys you’ve listed who’ve done so well would have succeeded in the Twins system….when making those comparisons, you can’t just pick up a guy’s stats and drop them into a new organization, assuming nothing would have changed.
You can insist that we “screwed it up” all you want, but not only is hindsight is 20/20, but the deal wasn’t a bad one just because it wasn’t the one you wanted…or the one most of us wanted, for that matter.
Maybe we wont be so stupid this time around, but we will.
What does that even mean? The next time we have the game’s best pitcher, we’ll be “stupid” again? I’m not even sure where to start to refute that statement.
by Jesse on
Jul 5, 2008 8:27 AM EDT
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I agree
with you Jesse 100%. For all we know, Ellsbury could be buried in the minors along with Lowrie and Masterson. Sure, Ellsbury is an amazing player and all, but you cant look at a players stats and say, “OMG, I TOLD you that we should have gotten him.” Look at Hunter’s stats compared to last year…Not good, but is that to say that if we had kept Hunter that he would have had the stats he does now? No…we all know that. Different division, different pitchers. I am really happy with the trade that Billy Smith did. Gomez appears to be doing just fine and Guerra is really pitching well. Humber and Mulvey are the surprises but I am sure they will do better after a while.
Yes, it was never confirmed that that trade was on the table. Actually, I highly doubt that the Red Sox would have parted with all those keys to the future just for Johan. Masterson, Lowrie, Moss, and Ellsbury/Lester? I highly doubt that trade would have swung. Way too many good parts there. The fact that the Red Sox said that we werent going to get a Ellsbury and Lester/Bucholz combo tells they werent too willing to give up even that talent. But to have three above average prospects plus a Ellsbury/Lester/Buckholz is absurd. AND, when we traded Johan, Smith called all clubs involved and said, “Put your best offers on the table.” I am sure that if the Red Sox would have put this out, we would have jumped on it. The Mets apparently had the best offer and I like it as do most people here.
Plus, I never remember YOU – realfan – telling us anything. So, before making accusations like I TOLD you, you should have something to back that up with. Plus, what can WE do about it anyways. Why dont you call Billy Smith away from his apparently stupid job of looking for the best players for this club and why dont you complain to him about it. Wait, how bout you call Polhad and say you would be a better GM than Smith while your at it too!
by 33MorneauMVP on
Jul 5, 2008 5:53 PM EDT
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Everyday SS
I certainly would like for Casilla to continue to be productive. He is productive hitting second and playing second, so leave him alone. That rules out Roberts.
San Diego is out of it in the NL West—-perhaps the worst team in baseball. If they are rebuilding, they might trade their SS, Kahlil Greene. Greene hit righthanded, has decent power, is 28 and is a good defensive SS. The Pads certainly could use someone with Span’s abilities leading off and playing center. Perhaps Span and Bonser for Greene and a prospect?
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Jul 5, 2008 1:00 PM EDT 0 recs
Welcome!
I think you’re new here, I thought I saw you sign up the other day. Welcome to TT.
I certainly would like for Casilla to continue to be productive. He is productive hitting second and playing second, so leave him alone. That rules out Roberts.
Casilla’s put in time at short though, in both the majors and the minors, which is why I don’t see sliding him over as much of an issue. If it were a position he were unfamiliar with, absolutely, I’d not move him. But he is familiar with shortstop, so I think any effect on his offense would be minimal.
I’m not completely against the Greene idea. I looked into him when I was writing this post, but the problem with him is that he’s hitting miserably this season. 228/274/350 is really bad, even for a shortstop. He also strikes out a load (80 K’s in 320 AB’s), and the home runs (he has 8 so far this year, although you’re right—he has the potential for more) don’t offset those negatives for me.
by Jesse on
Jul 5, 2008 1:06 PM EDT
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OK I just
looked it up…Casill’s only played 42 innings at short in the majors.
But he does have extensive experience there in the minors, more time there than at second actually.
None of that negates your point however…some players suffer offensively when shifting defensive positions for some reason. But it’s not like Cuddyer where we kept jerking him around, because it’s a position Alexi is familiar with.
Or maybe I’m just a huge Brian Roberts fan. Either way.
by Jesse on
Jul 5, 2008 1:09 PM EDT
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Cristian Guzman
Why no mention of Cristian Guzman? He’s in a contract year so he’s playing well, his glove is still solid, good speed, he’s familiar with the nuances of the dome. I realize that he’d be just a rental but he’d definitely be an upgrade. Span and Duensing?
by mikeKaz on Jul 6, 2008 3:07 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Guzman
I didn’t bring up Guzy for a few reasons.
1: The Nationals are still trying to sign him to an extension, as far as I’m aware. That would drive his price up.
2: His track record of being able to stay on the field. He’s been hurt a lot, even if it’s just been a lot of bumps and bruises.
3: I don’t have much faith in his ability to maintain the level of production that he has.
He’s a 268/305/383 career hitter, who at 30, looks like he must be hitting over his head. I don’t want to take anything away from what he’s accomplished this year, because there’s nothing shabby about a line of 315/342/432…but his ‘06 was just as bad as this year has been good.
It’d be a classic case of selling high on Guzman. If his cost wasn’t anything too out of control I guess I wouldn’t be against it…I’m just a lot less comfortable with him than these other guys for the reasons above.
by Jesse on
Jul 6, 2008 8:53 AM EDT
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If it ain't broke ...
Long time reader, first time poster.
First off, I agree with Alexi Casilla All-Star. Casilla is productive at 2nd and batting second – why on earth would you mess with that?!
Third base and short? I’ve been reading a lot of stuff about possible trades at these positions lately. I wasn’t really aware there was a problem in this area. I was under the impression that Buscher had all but sewn up 3rd base. He’s certainly been productive with the bat. This whole thing with Gardy moving Harris to third strikes me more as him trying to get more flexibility out of his line up than any kind of permanent platoon situation. I still think Harris will see plenty of time at short. Much more than he will see at third. You also have Punto – and we all know how Gardy feels about Punto.
There also is still Macri, Tolbert and Everett on the DL. I haven’t been paying to much attention to their progress, but isn’t at least one of them due to come off the DL soon? Even if they aren’t, they will eventually. When they do, we’ll have a glut of infielders. It seems to me, the last thing we need is more. I would also be curious to see what a gold glove caliber SS plays like compared to what we have now. I don’t thing Everett was 100% at any point this season and we haven’t yet seen what he is actually capable of.
The problem with trading for something is you have to give something up to get it. Throwing names like Lamb and Boof around just ain’t going to get it done. You aren’t going to get anything worth having that way. In my mind, more often than not, the best trades are the ones that don’t happen.
I just don’t see any problem in the line up that won’t work itself out internally eventually. All the kids seem to be playing well and there is no reason to believe their defense won’t get better with time and experience.
I also don’t see a trade for Roberts or Elvis as being even in realm of possibility. If the Roberts window didn’t close once the O’s made all those trades over the winter, then it certainly did once they started winning a few games. And there is no way the Rangers give up their number one prospect. It would be one thing if they even had a prayer at getting into the post season, but they don’t, so it isn’t going to happen. They love their bats too much for that.
Now, if you want to talk trades, there is a possibility that’s been kind of intriguing to me, though I think we wouldn’t need to do it. It’s just one of those little things I tend to daydream about when I’m supposed to be working.
I think everybody agrees that Sabathia's days in Cleveland are over. Right now, it looks like he's headed for the Brewers. But that's a moot point. Sabathia has already said he's planning to test the free agent waters once the season is over. Personally, I think the Yankees will wind up with him. I think Cashman is out and Hanky Panky is ready to do what he does best - throw huge sums of money down the drain on over priced free agent All-Stars. I think he's finished with "the kids". Quite frankly, I'm surprised they haven't tried to make a trade for C.C. themselves. I also think the Skanks will throw money at Pettite and Mussina to keep them on the roster.
And that leaves Hughes and Kennedy as potential odd players out.
I think both of these guys could be had fairly cheaply at some point in the near future. If not by the Twins, then by some team.
Please keep in mind, that this is not something I see happening or think the team just has to do. This is all about personal satisfaction. A daydream and nothing more. After everything that happened last winter with Santana, I think it would be fun to nab them and watch them blossom in our system. A sort of last laugh kind of thing for all the fans that felt cheated when the trade didn’t go that way last winter.
Just some thoughts.
—Scott aka sploorp
by sploorp on Jul 6, 2008 4:39 AM EDT 0 recs
Missing paragraph
It looks like part of my post didn’t make it, leaving the last third of my making no sense at all. It was my first post and I had no idea there was a space limit. I also didn’t realize my post was as long as it was either, sorry about that. I’ll try to edit myself a little better in the future.
Basically, I said no matter who winds up with Sabathia, he’s more than likely headed to the Yankees via free agency this winter. I think Cashman is out and Hanky Panky is done with the kids. He’s ready to do what he does best and that’s overspend on over priced all-star free agents. Not only do I think he’ll go after Sabathia, I think he’ll throw all kinds of crazy money to keep Mussina and Pettitte on the roster as well.
That’s why I feel Hughes and/or Kennedy might suddenly become a trade possibility. I’m just surprised the Yankees haven’t been pursuing a trade themselves. Maybe they have and I just haven’t heard anything.
Anyway, ‘nuff said. Good night all.
by sploorp on Jul 6, 2008 5:11 AM EDT 0 recs
Welcome to TT
All fair points on the SS discussion. Right now, I’m happy with the 3B position as well, with how Buscher’s been able to contribute.
The only thing I’d argue with is Sabathia. There’ve been a lot of substantiated trade rumors about him coming out of Milwaukee. Courtesy of MLB Trade Rumors, both ESPN and The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel have confirmed that the Indians have an offer in-hand. The Brewers also have the quality of prospects that would be required to take Sabathia off Cleveland’s hands. I’m sure that if the Brewers give up those high-quality guys, it won’t be for a rental…they’ll want to extend Sabathia.
by Jesse on
Jul 6, 2008 8:45 AM EDT
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