Another Managerial Mistake, Another Loss

by Andersklasen on Jul 8, 2008 11:15 PM EDT Comment 19 comments

From me at TwinsFix

I wanted to write this recap while I still have the sour taste in my mouth so my criticism would be true. Hope you enjoy! :D

-Another great start by a great Twins pitcher was ruined tonight. Blackburn went a solid 6.2 innings giving up only two runs on six hits. Although this Red Sox lineup is missing Ortiz's bat, it is still very potent and Blackburn did a superb job of shutting them down.

-Blackburn averages 83.4 pitches per game, and threw 85 tonight. When Blackburn gave up a hit to Lugo after allowing the second Boston run, he was pulled from the game. I feel Gardy did a good job of choosing when to go to the bullpen. No complaining from that front tonight. -I'm not even upset with who Gardy put in. Reyes hasn't pitched since July 1st, and it was time for him to show off his 2.25 ERA. He came in and struck Jeff Baily out on three pitches to end the seventh inning. In the eighth, however, Reyes surrendered a double to Jacoby Ellsbury. With the score 5-2, Twins, it was time for Reyes to come back to the bench. Gardy did just that, sending Guerrier in.

-Guerrier has pitched four of the last five games, but hasn't thrown over 13 pitches on any given night. I felt, and obviously Gardy as well, that Matty was fresh and ready to face the heart of this Red Sox lineup. Guerrier came in to face Dustin Pedrioa and ran the count 2-2 on him, but ended up hanging a breaking ball which Pedroia pounded to right field for a single. The speedy Ellsbury advanced to third. Guerrier than induced a ground ball to first, which scored Ellsbury making the game 5-3 with a runner on second and Manny Ramirez stepping to the plate. Now this is where I have a problem. I would have removed Guerrier right there. I wouldn't trust a guy who had just allowed three baserunners while recording one out to face the powerful Ramirez.

I don't know what is going on with Craig Breslow, but he would have been my first choice to relieve Guerrier. If he really is battling a bad back he should be sent to the DL. The real issue I have is with the decision to keep Nathan on the bench. I am not a traditional baseball fan, and I would feel free to use my star closer in any tight situation, not just in save situations. Nevertheless, Gardy opted once again not to use Nathan, his best reliever, and Guerrier was left in the game.

We all know what happened next. The first pitch, a 95 mph fastball inside and high, was belted over the Green Monster to tie the game 5-5. Horrible, but not the worst. To my utter astonishment, Guerrier was left in the game! To his credit he struck out Lowell on three pitches, but then surrendered a double to Youkilis. After allowing him to advance to third on a wild pitch, Guerrier gave up a single to Brandon Moss to make the game 6-5. But Gardy still refused to take Guerrier out. What does he think this is; an exhibition game?

-Although nothing came of allowing Guerrier to stay in the game, it was potentially disastrous. He allowed a baserunner to steal second, but struck out Julio Lugo to end the eighth. This move (or lack thereof) and the move last night could be the worst I have ever seen Gardy. -Excellent defense tonight for the Twins, as was the case last night. I hope this aspect doesn't go unnoticed as everyone voices their concern for the managerial choices. Denard Span made a great leaping catch in foul territory to end the fifth inning. Blackburn also displayed his athleticism by making a sliding stop and throwing across the diamond to retire the batter.

-Brendan Harris and Nick Punto were the unsung heros tonight as well. They combined to go 4-8 with three RBI and two runs scored. Who would've thunk? The Twins will try and pick up Game Three tomorrow, matinee style. First pitch is 1:05 EST. Livan Hernandez (9-5, 5.18) will face Josh Beckett (8-5, 3.70). I highly doubt I will be able to post anything before game time tomorrow, folks. I live in Pacific time and first pitch is 10:05 for me. Expect something good after the game, though. :) Go Twins!

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Sorry

Sorry for the spacing, I tried to fix it, but couldn’t.

“Oh, Jesse?”

Twins Fix
http://www.twinsfix.com

by Andersklasen on Jul 8, 2008 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Fixed it

Nice post otherwise.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 9, 2008 12:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

is Gardenhire trying to prove a point?

This reminds me of when he kept trotting Rincon out there. Maybe he is trying to show management how badly we need bullpen help? Maybe he’s just being an asshole?

http://noblingblings.blogspot.com/

by Aaron Fix on Jul 9, 2008 1:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Players

Players play the game, and in this case, the loss had a helluva lot more to do with throwing a fastball in an awful pitchers’ location to Manny with first base open than managing. Manny had meekly fished at strike three earlier in the game and didn’t even seem to care, so you toss him some stuff out of the zone and if you walk him, fine. Instead, ol’ Matt groves one. I cringed before Manny even swung.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 9, 2008 1:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't

I don’t know about that totally. Sure Guerrier had an off night, but Gardy should have recognized that he had nothing before Manny even stepped to the plate.

Twins Fix
http://www.twinsfix.com

by Andersklasen on Jul 9, 2008 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It reminded me of Anderson against Fielder

Before they released Alan Anderson, he briefly pitched in the bullpen. Cecil Fielder had been struggling, swinging at a lot of bad pitches. Kelly brings Andy in and on the first pitch, he grooves an 88 mph fastball belt-high on the inside. I remember Herb saying “That was right in his wheel house”. I think the guy that ball hit in the left field bleachers still has a mark with the stitch pattern on it. They released Anderson the next day.

That pitch to Manny should be a wake-up call to Gardy. Give another guy a chance.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 9, 2008 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memory is a tricky thing

Alan Anderson’s last game with the Twins was against Toronto in the final game of the ‘91 season. Anderson was not on the post-season roster, and that was the end of his career. Fielder was in Detroit that season, and could not have hit a home run off Anderson that day.

Not sure what that has to do with Guerrier anyway. Anderson was just bombed to high heaven in the second half of ‘91, and had been lucky to not lose 20 the previous season. Matty, on the other hand, has been pitching pretty well.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 9, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Similarity: Bad pitch

What was it that reminded me of the Anderson debacle? The bad pitch. It’s really that simple. If Herb were still alive, I suspect he would have said, “That pitch was right in his wheel house.” Of course, Guerrier is in a different place in his career than Anderson, and all the differences you point out. I guess you prefer to focus on differences than similarities. Whatever floats your boat.

It’s funny. I’m just trying to agree with you. It was a bad pitch. That was my point. But you don’t like to agree, apparently. Oh, and on whether he was released in Detroit or Toronto: The Twins often had road trips that started in Detroit and moved to Toronto. If that was the last game in Detroit, it’s possible the team went to Toronto after the game and Andy was released the next day while the team was in Toronto.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 9, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

we have a winner

It’s funny. I’m just trying to agree with you. It was a bad pitch. That was my point. But you don’t like to agree, apparently.

speaking of similarities Mr. Saffron sure does exhibit a lot of similarities in his posts as the suddenly disappeared Firpo Marberry

by montanatwinsfan on Jul 9, 2008 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Long road to get there

If it’s as simple as reminding you of a similar pitch, then just say it, don’t add incorrect information.

What’s funny is:

1) You want everyone to agree with you, so you think that’s important to everyone else. Is there some reason that’s more important to you than getting facts correct? You were an editor, right? I would think that would be important to an editor.

2) You were wrong. Everyone is wrong sometimes. You too. But you can never admit that you were wrong, you just try to stray from your error and make it seem like people are just simply terrible because they corrected you.

I know this isn’t exactly SABR, but why not try Retrosheet next time? It’s a common SABR approach. SABR members recall things incorrectly all the time, but they are willing to check to see if they are correct, or willing to admit they are wrong when they are wrong. There’s nothing wrong with recalling something incorrectly, there’s nothing wrong with admitting you made a mistake, and there’s nothing wrong with checking facts.

I’m sure you will want the last word now, so go ahead. I’m done.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 9, 2008 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Perhaps I was wrong

You’re right, I don’t remember it perfectly and my limited research couldn’t determine one way or another. So I might be wrong. I just don’t know.

Where you misinterpreted me was I said Andy was released “on the next day”. That was my memory, which is perfectly compatible with the team going to Toronto from Detroit first. It really doesn’t matter whether he was released while the team was in Detroit or Toronto. His last pitch resulted in a homer by Cecil, which is also an insignificant fact for my trying to support your claim of Guerrier’s pitch making you cringe before Manny even hit it. I also cringed as soon as Matty let it go. The last time I felt like that was with that pitch by Andy.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 9, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A general comment about accuracy

Readers should consider this as a comment about our group’s accuracy in general.

The Internet makes it easier than ever to get information. And to get misinformation.
If we bloggers want to be taken seriously, we need to admit to mistakes when they are pointed out and be willing to correct them. Much of this information is around for a long time, and it surfaces via search engines. What’s wrong with trying to get it right, especially if we can? It gives us that much more credibility.

We recently had a thread critical of Bert Blyleven for a spoken misstatement during a broadcast. If we’re going to be critical of announcers who speak off the cuff during broadcasts, we should apply similar standards to our contributions here. If we don’t want to do that, then perhaps we should at least be less critical of situations such as the Blyleven one.

And remember, he was big enough to admit his mistake, and even to make fun of himself.

by Sev on Jul 10, 2008 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough

There are a few differences between a blog and a professional media outlet.

First, none of us is getting paid to do this. We are trying to be as accurate as our schedules allow. Bert is getting paid to be accurate. He has nothing better to do all day than go over his notes and talk to people to make sure they’re accurate. Most of us have day jobs, and a lot of this information is not available on the Net. They did not post game logs from 1991 in the Internet, for example. So when Baseball-Reference and other sites don’t have the information, barring saving a copy of the 1992 media guide, fact checking becomes reminiscing about what we remember, as faulty as that might be.

Second, the fact in question happened 17 years ago. Bert gets stuff wrong that happened this year, e.g. the Neshek injury.

Third, unlike Bert, we don’t have access to the whole Twins media relations department to check on these things. We only have the Internet.

There’s a reason why blogs are held to different standards than professional news outlets. People recognize that it takes a small army of volunteers to run a blog. And volunteers don’t always have the time or resources to check every fact.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 10, 2008 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a direct comparison

I did not state that blogs and reputable media are equivalent, I said that many bloggers want to be taken seriously, yet they criticize the “conventional” media and take offense when incorrect facts are pointed out.

You do not seem to be taking this in the spirit that it was intended, which is that we should welcome accuracy.

Regarding the small army of volunteers needed to run a blog, we have more than volunteers, we have all the people who visit the Internet, potentially, to act as our editors and help us get things right.

The Internet has an edge over a newspaper, for instance, because editors at newspapers edit many types of information and can’t possibly be experts on all topics, and at the very most only a couple of editors will review a newspaper piece.

But most people who visit a sewing blog, for instance, are probably interested in sewing and have special sewing knowledge, so right there they have an edge over any one random editor, and the chance that thousands with special knowledge might read an entry is quite great. So we have hundreds or even thousands of editors who can point out errors, and I for one welcome that.

And to that point, I’ll take the risk of correcting you regarding your comment that 1991 game logs can’t be found on the Internet. They can be. This information might be of help for many in the future.

I took the liberty of visiting baseball-reference.com, viewing Mr. Anderson’s entry, and found all of his outings for 1991. Here it is: http://tinyurl.com/5zwe94

As for people with day jobs, based on the large number of entries I encounter during my evening reading that were posted during a day game, I think some first-shifters are doing something other than working. ( :-)

by Sev on Jul 10, 2008 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Taken the right way

I think I took your comments the right way. You think blogs should be at least as credible as professional media. I disagree. One of the values of blogs is the lack of overhead. Copy is fresher and more engaging on blogs because it does not get beaten into a pulp by a copy desk. That means more off-the-cuff comments make their way into blogs. But I don’t think that’s a bad thing. The lack of editorial oversight means more factual errors, but it also frees us to say things that cannot be proven.

If I had to look up every single thing I wrote about here, I wouldn’t write much. In this case, I would not bother to reminisce about a bad pitch that a former Twin threw 17 years ago because the effort needed to check my memory against the record would outweigh the value of the reminiscence. Relevance is a function of effort as well as the relatedness of content. If the effort is too great, the fact becomes functionally irrelevant.

(And yes, I claimed that record did not exist. You proved me wrong. Good for you. I should know better than to claim something doesn’t exist because that cannot be proven.)

For the record, what bothered me is that I did not make a factual error. I never claimed that Anderson threw the pitch against the Toronto Blue Jays. Of course I knew that Cecil played for Detroit when he hit that dinger. I didn’t even bother to write that the pitch was in Detroit because I thought that was obvious. The fact that Anderson was released the next day in Toronto is inconsequential. I said he was released the next day. That also was the truth. It was Safron who tried to paint what I said as false. In my defense, I did not own the factual error because I did not make it.

I’m perfectly willing to own factual errors, even to the point of saying “perhaps I was wrong” when I knew I hadn’t made an error. But the constant criticism about irrelevant facts is the kind of thing that drags blogs down. People get hung up on inconsequential facts and ignore the rich stories that we can tell with this medium. Expecting blogs to mimic the printed word is a misuse of the medium. That’s all I’ll say about that.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 11, 2008 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you have nothing as a pitcher, you're the first to know it

And you better be smart enough not to put it where they can whomp it.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 9, 2008 1:58 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Ahhhh

Wouldn’t managing have something to say about first base being open?

"I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. See, my mule don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it . . ."

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Jul 9, 2008 2:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Managers and players

I agree that pitch had bad news written all over it, and I don’t think it matters who is managing, a pitch like that is just the pitcher’s fault. Everyone on the field had to be aware of the situation. I don’t see where Rick Anderson or Ron Gardrenhire would need to make a trip to the mound to mention it. I was aware of it, and I’m not even playing in the game.

But I have grown a little weary of the general belief in dugouts that the “closer” needs to start the ninth fresh. I understand players have roles and they are paid a lot of money to succeed in that role, and no one was ever more adamant about that than Tom Kelly, under whom Gardenhire learned about managing in the big leagues. I also understand that Matt Guerrier has been ridiculously effective for nearly a month now, so rather than second-guess on this particular game because Gardenhire’s approach is very understandable, I’ll just comment in general that I would like to see closers enter in the 8th, maybe even the 7th, when merited. The result would interest fans, who will continue to second-guess.

Somewhat related is that we are more than halfway through the season and at this pace, Joe Nathan will not appear in 71 or 72 innings, as he did a year ago, so why not toss him out in the 8th and see what the hell happens? That was a tough one to let get away.

by Sev on Jul 9, 2008 2:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

second guessing is every fan's prerogative,

but if you are going to make an argument stick to the facts as failing to do so makes your argument highly suspect:

Now this is where I have a problem. I would have removed Guerrier right there. I wouldn’t trust a guy who had just allowed three baserunners while recording one out to face the powerful Ramirez.

Actually, Guerrier had only put on ONE base runner before facing Ramirez as ESPN’s play by play breakdown shows us:

Boston – Bottom of 8th SCORE
Dennys Reyes pitching for Minnesota MIN BOS
J Ellsbury doubled to left. 5 2
M Guerrier relieved D Reyes. 5 2
D Pedroia singled to shallow right center, J Ellsbury to third. 5 2
J Drew grounded out to second, J Ellsbury scored, D Pedroia to second. 5 3
M Ramirez homered to left center, D Pedroia scored.

If Guerrier had put three baserunners on, that would be a whole different story – and a lot better argument. You don’t pull a relief pitcher (especially one who has had as much recent success as Guerrier) because he records an out at second. That is doing his job. You don’t ding Guerrier for Ellsbury’s run when Reyes put Ellsbury on 2nd.

So actually the situation is, recently struggling Ramirez faces recently strong Guerrier, with Guerrier giving up one single and recording one GO. That is NOT a recipe for pulling Guerrier and replacing him in ANY manager’s book.

I have no problem with someone making the argument that Nathan could have/should have come in at that point, but c’mon, if someone is going to say that Gardenhire is an idiot for leaving Guerrier in at that point, then they are being plain and simple foolish.

Here is where we might all agree that Gardenhire might have made a stupid decision to leave in Matt Guerrier. Game tied, Guerrier has given up a single, a home run, a double to Youkilis, and now a wild pitch to Moss. As evidencedhere by ESPN play by play:

M Lowell struck out swinging. 5 5
K Youkilis doubled to deep center. 5 5
K Youkilis to third on wild pitch by M Guerrier.

Clearly Guerrier is a little rattled at this point and sweating under the pressure. I think I would have pulled him, ego be damned. But then, Gardenhire NEEDS to manage for the long term which includes both seasons and careers. One loss to Boston, because Crain fucks up is not a big deal over the course of a season. However, leaving Guerrier in to face his fear, t feel the pressure of a big time game, to work through his own mistakes, to develop confidence that he can pitchthrough his own mistakes… ...all help make Guerrier a better pitcher AND help the team throughout the rest of the season.

Gardenhire took a gamble that didn’t pay off. I think it was a smart gamble, myself.

by montanatwinsfan on Jul 9, 2008 10:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs