The Nick Punto Reign of Hustle Stops Now
Someone, somewhere is wondering what the f....devil!
1st and 3rd with no outs, a dream.
But, of course, bases-full and no outs proved fruitless the game before.
I understand enthusiasm. But......
So, the Twins season ahs ended...some 50,000 short of 50 million fans viewing major league baseball in the Metrodome. Whew. So close, so far away.
Next October, we can sit, wet and cold, watching the Twins do a repeat of this season, I hope, making a playoff run in September that doesn't need to energize the fanbase or keep the stands full...think this seasons finale run of wins vs. losses will carryover just fine.
No more beer. No mroe peanuts. Go Vikings!
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53 comments
Comments
I really, really, really
do hope that the Nick Punto reign of hustle, and every other kind of Nick Punto everything comes to an end for us this off-season. I know it will not, but a guy can hope.
I always loved that one.
by FoulJack on Oct 12, 2009 2:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The good news is
Gardy will have the whole winter to reflect on that play. He makes a play like that once a week on average, but, for some reason, Gardy has a short memory when it comes to those plays. He’ll bench other players for doing that kind of stuff, but not Punto. Well, maybe this will stick in his craw a little over the winter and convince the FO not to rely on him as an everyday player in 2010.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Opening day 2b
Punto will open Target Field at the starting 2b. The Twins will fill SS and 3b from outside the organization and Punto will beat out Casilla for the job. That’s my prediction.
When Punto levels off his swing and settles for opposite field instead of falling into his Napoleon complex and trying to hit homeruns, he is a middling second baseman. Plus, Gardy straight loves him.
by wcooley on Oct 12, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Gardy love him as much after brooding over that mistake all Winter?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
High Life and the Lanes
Major league managers and players can’t afford to stew all winter. They are self-confident enough to trust that they will make the next play.
That’s part of the reason they are in the bigs. Players who dwell on mistakes don’t get past high school.
by wcooley on Oct 12, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's because Punto is him.
He sees himself so is unable to truly be objective.
by MNPundit on Oct 14, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which Punto do we get in 2010?
As we all know, Nick Punto is awful in odd-numbered years (struggling to stay above the Mendoza Line) and legitimately good in even-numbered years (near-100 OPS+ with above-average defense), which leaves us with hope for Good Nick in 2010. However, there is another factor at play here – the good years have occurred when he has played his way into a starting role, replacing an ineffective starter (Tony Batista in 2006, Adam Everett in 2008), while the bad years have occurred when he was placed in a starting role at the beginning of the year (third base in 2007, shortstop in 2009).
Both factors were at play this year – he stunk up the joint during the first half of the year after being installed as the everyday shortstop, but then he claimed the second base spot when Luis Rivas took off his Alexi Casilla mask, playing legitimately well down the stretch. In fact, Punto played so well at the end of the year that I could see him starting next year as the opening-day second baseman.
So, which Nick Punto do we get next year? The .290-hitting super duper utility man who can replace a black hole of suck in the long-term if necessary, or the .190 hitter who makes the ninth place in the lineup look like something out of the National League?
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Oct 12, 2009 12:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that sometimes teams think this way too
“Hey, maybe the guy who was marginally acceptable in 2 separate years in his career will show up next year! (Let’s sign him to a 2 year $8 million contract!)”
Nick Punto is a career 74 OPS+ player (.248/.322/.324). This year he had a 72 OPS+, with a line of .228/.337/.284.
I don’t know, but it seems safe to expect more or less a 70-75 OPS+. That’s not a starting player on a truly good team.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 12, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Marginally acceptable"
I don’t think “marginally acceptable” is quite fair to Punto’s 2006 and 2008 seasons – he was legitimately above-average in both seasons (albeit not by much in 2006, when he was slightly below-average offensively at third but made it up on defense).
The problems with the Punto signing last year were twofold:
1) Inconsistency – As you said, they signed him after four years of alternating good and bad, hoping (and paying) for just the good.
2) Risk/reward – The good years were slightly above average, while the bad years were along the lines of replacement level offensively (and while Punto’s good on defense, he’s not Ozzie Smith). That’s a heck of a risk to take with a starting lineup position.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Oct 12, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time seeing the '10 Twins NOT having Punto on the roster.
I just hope it’s as a reserve.
by Jesse on Oct 12, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Punto is an asset to this team, just not as an everyday player.
Punto was hitting great this last month of the season. Let’s hope he turns his disappointing mistake into a good offseason of motivation and keeps hitting next year.
"Sacrifice for the unknown" - Herb Brooks
by Dr. Yogi on Oct 12, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Marginally acceptable
on a good team. maybe that’s unfair to his 2008, where he was…better than that. I think it’s a reasonable assessment of his 2006.
Anyway, that’s beside the point. The point is, his career is a better indication of what he is than any one season.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 12, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ops+ underrates Punto because on base percentage is more important than slugging.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 12, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OPS+ partially corrects for this already...
OPS+ is not really “adjusted OPS”. Its “adjusted OBP” + “adjusted SLG” – 100.
…because the adjustments are done separately, the OBP is effectively weighted by a factor of lgSLG/lgOBP which this year is 1.27. That weight is a bit lower than what most people use but it does mean that for this issue, OPS+ is better than OPS (which has no weighting).
by DavidRF on Oct 12, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a great backup infielder. But he should not be a starter on a team trying to be a contender.
by ckb on Oct 12, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
starting infield
Who do you see starting in the infield for the Twins next year other than Morneau?
by wcooley on Oct 12, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Joe Crede, JJ Hardy, Nick Punto
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 12, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No to Crede
If you sign Crede, you need to platoon him. For that, you might as well work in Valencia. Either way, you still need to get a left-handed hitting third baseman.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Left hitting 3b
They don’t grow on trees. Matt Moses? Mike Lamb?
What are the pros and cons of just turning the job over to Valencia, and falling back on Tolbert in June if he fails? A Valencia/Tolbert platoon is probably just as good as a desperation move such as Lamb or Batista.
by wcooley on Oct 12, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Adam Kennedy, Akinora Iwamura
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iwamura is a perfect fit
Good glove at 2B and 3B, decent bat, LH platoon guy. Put him on the “get” list.
by DJL44 on Oct 13, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iwamura
would be an intersting grab because of his multi position abilities. I would love to see Figgins, with Span batting second,
I’m not on the Hardy bandwagon. Except for the fact that he could probably be had on the cheap as the Brewers are on the bubble with him as we are with Casilla.
Hummmm…..Casilla for Hardy (Casilla could play SS).
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
by rosterman on Oct 13, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Casilla for Hardy?!
I hope that was a joke. They are not comparable players. Hardy has been worth 56 million dollars the last 3 years. Casilla has been worth negative 4 million dollars.
By far the worst year of Hardy’s career was comparable with Casilla’s career year of ’08. How you could even compare the two baffles me.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 13, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also want to add
That the two reasons people are so down on Hardy is that he was sent down to the minors and his bat has gone away.
He was sent down to the minors for 2 main reasons: to get Alcides Escobar some major league experience, and, this is the main one, to delay his free agency by a year. In any other situation he would have been with the big league club all year.
As far as his bat, yes it was a down year, but those happen from time to time. Some of it can be explained by balls in play luck, and the rest is just a bad year for a young guy. He might hit like that again next year, in which case he’d still be better than any of our other options, but more than likely, he’ll bounce back, at least a little. If they can get him without giving up a large amount of value, he would significantly help this club next year.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 13, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crede,Cabrera,Iwamura
Vikings 4 the superbowl
by RaysOfHope on Oct 14, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see how Crede is doing after his surgery
A healthy Crede is a dangerous Crede
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett 

—Hasta la victoria siempre ¡Patria o Muerte! –Ernesto "Che" Guevara
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Oct 12, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what we said in spring training
But 2009 turned out to be a repeat of 2008.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A unicorn is a beautiful animal
And it’s roughly as common as a healthy Crede.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Oct 12, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JJ Hardy finished the year in the minors
Why is he an upgrade?
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 12, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cause we don't have anybody
Who knows what Cabrera costs? But e’s officially a free agent 10 days after the World Series. Both Punto and Harris bombed out, forcing us to acquire Cabrera in the first place. Trevor Plouffe isn’t ready. JJ Hardy is a major league shortstop. In that he is an upgrade.
The Brewers like Escobar better, so they will trade Hardy this offseason. The only reason the Brewers sent him down was to save money for the team they trade him to, thus making him more valuable on the trade market. I wouldn’t be surprised by a GoGo for Hardy trade straight up..
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My guess is the .229 BA also had something to do with it.
I have nothing against the guy, but he’s not a clear upgrade.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Oct 12, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh come on
2007
Hardy UZR 14.8 OPS+ 100
Cabrera UZR 8.0 OPS+ 95
Punto UZR 5.7 OPS+ 52
2008
Hardy UZR 8.2 OPS+ 113
Cabrera UZR 14 OPS+ 84
Punto UZR 7.5 OPS+ 99
2009
Hardy UZR 6.6 OPS+ 74
Cabrera UZR – 14 OPS+ 90
Punto UZR 1.6 OPS+ 72
Hardy was clearly better than the other two in each of the last three years. Even in his worst year, he was better than the other two. Also, he’s 10 years younger than Cabrera and five years younger than Punto. He should make about $1 million next year. Punto will make more than $4 million and Cabrera will likely make a comparable salary to that.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Oct 12, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is everyone so sure Hardy is going to recover?
Isn’t “Let’s base our expectations on the guy’s good year(s) and disregard the bad one(s)” the same mistake the front office made with Punto? And Mike Lamb? And Adam Everett? And Ramon Ortiz? And Tony Batista? And Livan Hernandez? And Craig Monroe? And Rondell White? And Joe Crede?
Hardy isn’t exactly a risk-free acquisition. I’d like to know if he was battling a nagging injury or changed his approach or went blind in one eye or something before giving up too much.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Oct 12, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is throwing out ANY data from previous years
in this case, its the opposite, he’s had one bad year and 2 great ones before it. You need to look at his career numbers, and put a small amount of extra weight for the most recent data. Obviously there are risks involved, but he has by far the best chance of being an above average player of the three. Because of the year he had, and because of Alcides Escobar, he shouldn’t be that expensive (in terms of talent given up). And for his career, he is an average hitter with an above average glove at the most important position on the field. I think thats a clear upgrade.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 13, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know...
I don’t want to completely throw out the good years (which were legitimately very good) – the first paragraph of my post was largely internet-fueled hyperbole. The second, though, stands, and I have yet to hear a good explanation – why, exactly, did J.J. Hardy’s batting ability fall off the face of the planet this year?
Also, I hadn’t bothered to look up the numbers, so I didn’t realize just how good he was defensively until seeing cmathewson’s post above.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Oct 13, 2009 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Noone is going to believe this
but Punto has been about a league average player over the last 6 years. He doesn’t hit well, but makes up for that by walking a lot (why pitchers continue to walk him I have no idea) and playing great defense. He is absolutely good enough to be on a contending team. Tolbert, Harris, and OCab are the ones who need to go. Tolbert brings absolutely nothing to the table, and Harris is just too poor of a defender to be valuable, even with his decent bat. Cabrera’s decreased range and lack of any hitting skills besides batting average have made him a below average player.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 12, 2009 2:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You're right
at least, I don’t believe it. His offense is NOT mitigated to his glove, at least not enough to make him a league average player.
Frankly, the Twins have nobody under contract for next year that makes me comfortable as a starter at any of 2B, 3B, or SS. And I agree, O-Cab isn’t the answer either.
by Eric in Madison on Oct 12, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
I just totally disagree with everything you said. Sure, Punto played great in September but he created his own good news with that by totally and completely sucking in April through August. Had he played “league average” during the 5 months PRIOR to September, I would put money on it adding several extra wins, which removes our need for him to be such a breakout player in September. It’s like he put his phone bill money in the savings account for several months, then waited till the phone company threatened to shut off his phone service, and then paid the bill. Kudos to him right? NO WAY.
I always loved that one.
by FoulJack on Oct 13, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure what you are talking about exactly,
but Punto walks a lot. Not just in september. He plays very good defense at important positions. What he did in september helps, but thats not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about his CAREER numbers. For his career, he his a league average player. You can ignore defense all you want and point to the stupid baserunning plays and low batting average, but they don’t matter anywhere near as much as his glove. It was hard for me to believe also, but I don’t ignore statistics when they don’t agree with my observations. Defense is MUCH more important than we ever thought, and the Twins FO has known it forever, despite how much we give them shit for playing players like punto.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 13, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i hate wow dick and bert give punto so much love
makes me want to throw up sometimes, he is one of the worst players i have ever seen
Vikings 4 the superbowl
by RaysOfHope on Oct 14, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are some guys that are worse than punto
Delmon
Casilla
Tolbert
Harris
Orlando Cabrera.
That’s a start.
by lookatthosetwins on Oct 14, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the end......
Few major league players are really bad. They just need to fill a proper role.
Combine that with being young and raw, seasoned, and old and flabby, a player changes over time.
I always liked abseball because it seemed to be full of average joes (nicky’s) who are playing a game. You can be the super stud, which is few and far between, but baseball is basically a game of mixed skills. If you are good in one area, you just might make a contribution to the game.
And like all sports, many play and few make the bigtime. $$$ screw up a lot of the sense of the game.
But Punto and RedDog could both play forever, somewhere, if the salary was right and the bench spot existed. Maybe for msot of their careers they were no better than the 22-25th players, but they were better than many 22-25th players.
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by rosterman on Oct 16, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that baserunning gaffe
I see both baserunning errors as “hustle” plays. They were intimidated by the Yanks, so they thought they had to do something extra. Confident teams don’t do that. They stop at second, happy to see a run score, and confident more hits will follow. Unconfident teams feel like whatever they’re doing won’t be enough and they have to constantly try harder, push it, give it everything they’ve got and a little more. Gomez and Punto were giving it a little extra, pushing it, urging themselves on, instead of seeing the game and reacting. Great players, confident relaxed players, like Mauer and Jeter, wouldn’t make that error. They take the extra base when it’s there, but when it’s not, they stop at second or third and remain calm.
Besides those baserunning gaffes and the missed call on the foul line, the one thing that gnaws at me is finding out Mauer was hurting and was left in to run the bases anyway. If you’re in extra innings already, and Mauer just batted, and he represents the lead run, put in Casilla. It’s very unlikely that the game will still be going 3 innings later when his next at bat comes around, and you really need that run now. If the game goes that long, you can play Morales.
by by jiminy on Oct 12, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One thing about baserunning mistakes...
you actually have to get on base to make them.
Punto was on base 7 of his 12 PA. BEST on the team.
Mauer was on base 7 of his 14 PA.
Both had 1 double and 1 RBI. Mauer had 4 K’s, Punto 1K. Mauer is obviously the far better hitter, BUT Punto held his own.
Other’s not so much.
Regards,
I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!
by the Dragon on Oct 12, 2009 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't get it.
Are you saying Mauer was less valuable in the postseason that Punto? Cherry picking stats is so irritating. Am I bias? Absolutely. Mauer is a 3 time batting champ and I have despised Punto from the moment he became a Twin. But even with that bias, those stats are meaningless.
I always loved that one.
by FoulJack on Oct 13, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cherry picking stats...
You’re correct. STATS ARE MEANINGLESS.
IF you read what I wrote. Mauer AND Punto both got on base 7 times during the Yankee series. That’s actually a FACT (No cooked up stats). I also said that Mauer is “OBVIOUSLY” a “FAR BETTER” hitter (I had presumed that wasn’t in dispute). The offending phrase must have been “but Punto held his own”. Or maybe, you actually have to get on base to make a baserunning mistake…mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa
BUT, what I thought was more important “Other’s not so much”.
Regards,
I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!
by the Dragon on Oct 13, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Overalll......
The Twins got on base pretty well against the Yankees. Unfortunately, they couldn’t get anyone home. And the long ball was non-existent, even in the lofty confines of Yankee Stadium.
You can praise hustle, but when the third base coach is laying down the stop sign because he sees what’s going on in the field and you pretty much don’t catch it until its too late…….
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by rosterman on Oct 13, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree...
I have in several spots (in this blog or others) condemned the play.
I guess my post was far to subtle.
My jab was towards Kubel, Young, (BOTH of whom had alot to do in getting the Twins to the playoff’s the last week to 10 days); and a little lesser extent Cabrera.
I am also able to recognize that sometimes (once every 5-10 years) the other team’s players make an excellent play.
I personally think Jeter is over hyped/rated, yet the baserunning mistakes by Gomez & Punto are as much a credit to Jeter as a condemnation to either Gomez OR Punto. I suspect, if both of those plays were run 10/100 times against every team in both Leagues, I doubt that a similar outcome happens 10% of the time. My conclusion is props to Jeter.
Regards,
I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!
by the Dragon on Oct 13, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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