Offseason
by amattson14 on Oct 24, 2009 12:27 AM EDT
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PrintThey need to somehow find a way to trade for Brandon Webb who is in the last year of his contract and the Diamondbacks are looking to trade him anyway, trade one of the three perkins/gomez/liriano for JJ Hardy to fill the much needed shortstop vacancy, and finally they need to trade for 2nd baseman Dan Uggla which the Marlins are looking to cut some salary and of course trying to get even younger. Let Pavano go as well as Cabrera which would make their team look like this:
STARTING LINEUP:
C- MAUER (12.5) 1B- MORNEAU (14) 2B- UGGLA (5-7)
SS- HARDY (4-5) 3B- PUNTO (4) LF- YOUNG (2.5)
CF- SPAN (440k) RF- CUDDYER (8.5) DH- KUBEL (4.1)
BENCH:
C- MORALES (440k) INF- TOLBERT (440k) INF- HARRIS (1) OUT- PRIDIE (440k)
STARTERS:
SP- WEBB (8.5) SP- BAKER (3) SP- SLOWEY (440k) SP- BLACKBURN (440k) SP- DUENSING (440k)
BULLPEN:
RP- MANSHIP (440k) RP- GUERRIER (2.5) RP- RAUCH (2.9) RP- MAHAY (1.5) RP- MIJARES (440k)
RP- CRAIN (2) CL- NATHAN (11.25)
That totals about (90-93) million
That is with trading Liriano, Perkins, Gomez, along with a few prospects to get those UGGLA, HARDY, AND WEBB.
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Get real
I’ve seen postings like this from several people. Bring in three position players and an ace starter. Face it, it is not going to happen. I have hopes that the Twins will acquire one solid infielder, as long as he isn’t a Type A free agent. I think the Twins will start with a mish-mash at third and eventually Valencia will be called up and be the regular. They have several internal choices at second, who can’t help but be better than they were last year.
My preference would be to solve shortstop for a couple years (JJ Hardy). If the Twins can get that done for Perkins,or perhaps Crain, and a good prospect, it would be a good trade for both teams. I think that the Twins might have a chance to pick up Harden, Sheets, Bedard, of Duscherer, but they are all gambles who would be signing a short term contract.
This is nit-picking, but I doubt Jason Pridie will play another inning for the Twins. He wasn’t called up at the end of the season, did not progress at Rochester and seems to be someone who will probably be taken off the 40-man roster.
Also, I think the Brendan Harris will either be traded or non-tendered unless the Twins think he will be their primary third baseman next year.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Oct 24, 2009 9:17 AM EDT reply actions
Perkins is done with the Twins
He was invited to the Dome for fan appreciation weekend and he declined.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Really?!
That’s unfortunate. He is from here. Should have tried to work with the hometown team. Oh well.
Money got in the way.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
—Hasta la victoria siempre ¡Patria o Muerte! –Ernesto "Che" Guevara
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Oct 26, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
arrogance
Reusse reported this early on: all athletes are cocky, Perkins is arrogant and self-absorbed.
Didn’t he learn anything from Mauer?
How to be lazy?
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 27, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It's funny because they were high school rivals
Mauer is the inner-city poor kid who took nothing for granted and whose parents pushed him hard. Perkins is the suburban rich kid who took everything for granted and whose parents coddled. Mauer is confident and humble, always willing to work to get better. Perkins is cocky and arrogant, masking his inability to take constructive criticism.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
the inner-city poor kid
ah. He went to Cretin-Derham Hall. I don’t think anyone there meets this definition.
by Milt on Tilt on Oct 27, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
It's called fianancial aid
It’s a myth that you have to be rich to go to Catholic schools. Many of the kids I went to school with at Holy Angels had financial aid in which they paid very little of their tuition. Also, if parents are committed enough, they don’t let means get in the way. My parents were lower middle class by government standards, but they put 11 kids through Catholic schools.
I’’m not saying the Mauer’s were poor. But they sure weren’t rich. And they live in a part of town that is not known for wealth (near Central High).
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Central=true inner city.
My neighbors sent all their kids to Cretin, and the more kids you send through, the bigger the discount you get.
webb?
and how do you think we would get webb without giving up any of the people on the major league roster
santana?
How did we give away Johan Santana to the Mets for 4 players not of their roster???
Gomez, Humber, and who knows the rest?
If the D-bags don't pick up his option, he's a Type B free agent
Given the financial situation in Arizona, they might decide to pass on the option. If so, I’d put him above Pavano on my wish list for that one veteran arm. He’d cost more, though. So if you only have $12 million to work with, you might prefer Pavano at $6 million to Webb at $10 million.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
However
when you take in Webb’s K count, Cy Young Award, overall win % as compared to Pav’s, you (Twins FO) may be willing to pay the 10 million/1 year. Wait, what am I saying? Twins pay more for more talent? Opps, I must have had a different team in mind here.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
It's not my money
So I would do it if I had the chance. But I’m pretty sure the Twins have a set budget that gives them a one-time $12 million surplus. And their needs in the infield will cost at least $4 million that they do not have committed (O-Cab, Aki and Hardy are set to make about that much in 2010). Given that budget, I’d rather have Pavano and an infielder than Webb alone.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
True
if the Twins could bring back Pav + going out and grabbing Hardy (on the block) for Perkins (who must be on the block after refusing the fan appreciation day), plus a nice addition at 2B, say Akinori or Felipe Lopez, would be a much better addition than just simply Webb.
However, I do think the Twins should look into that possibility because, knowing the Twins, they will settle with Punto at 2B and bring back O-Cab for SS.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
This is the most sarcastic post of all time
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 24, 2009 7:06 PM EDT reply actions
My favorite part is the sarcasm font applied to headings
That would be like me saying that Bobby Keppel is a relief pitcher. Even his title is sarcastic!
(I can still make fun of Keppel, it’s still not the offseason!)
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 25, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
cheater
It IS the Twins offseason. :)
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
—Hasta la victoria siempre ¡Patria o Muerte! –Ernesto "Che" Guevara
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Oct 25, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
The fact that people continue to think that because we move into Target field, the Twins will add more payroll is a joke. I’m not trying to be combative, and quash hopes that we all have of the Pohlads forking over some cash, but the fact of the matter is, the best we get this offseason is a Harden or Bedard if we’re lucky, although the trend in pitchers lately has seen guys of that caliber (Slightly above average with glimpses of staff ace) get payed handsomely. Look what Carlos Silva brought in from Seattle. Also what do we have to offer for a guy like Hardy? Are we going to trade Gomez? His value is not very high, what with bunting on strike two and his lack of consistency at the plate. What about a guy like Perkins or Baker or Blackburn or Slowey, sure why not trade another starting pitcher, and bring in a Shortstop. It worked when we traded Garza for Young. I don’t trust Billy Smith with the reigns when it comes to trades. His track record is terrible. I see us throwing slippery money at Mauer that isn’t going to stick, then resigning Cabrera and Pavano, watching Mauer ride off into the sunset for (Insert large pocketed big market team here) and hoping that what we have to show for it is worth anything.
Could happen
I guess if you want to pessimistic, you could see the Twins’ offseason going that way. First of all, there are going to be thirty teams that want to improve. Most will have less money to spend than the Twins, who should (after arb) have about $15M to spend. Much of that 15M could go to a new Mauer contract (signing bonus & new saalary for ‘10). This isn’t like Torii Hunter or even like Johan (Mauer plays almost every day and is a local). Probably the only way that the Mauer thing gets messed up is if Mauer doesn’t WANT to play here anymore.
Assuming Mauer gets a new contract, I think the Twins have a few pieces to trade including Wilson Ramos, who may be their top ready or near-ready prospect, but who will be blocked by Mauer. Trading Ramos and Perkins for Hardy has made sense to me for months. Some are saying it is too much, others (down on Perkins) think it is too little. Like Goldilocks, I think it is just right.. Remember, the Twins would be taking on Hardy’s arb-eligible salary as well. If the Twins were to re-sign Pavano, extend Mauer and trade for Hardy, I would be satisfied.
The results of Bill Smith’s first two big moves were disappointing at best and failures at worst. Delmon is at best enigmatic, certainly not a budding star. Gomez has caused much more frustration than excitement, Harris is a barely replacement-level backup and the rest of the players have amounted to nothing. That said, Smith made all the right moves during the playoff run. The Twins wouldn’t have won the division without any of Rauch, Mahay, Pavano, and O-Cab. The extensions that have been given (Baker, Kubel, Cuddyer, and Morneau) all look to be wise investments that save the club money down the road.
The club claims to spend 50% of their income on payroll. If they do, they should add rather than subtract and the Twins should be a good club with a chance to be even better into the next decade.
by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Oct 25, 2009 8:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I doubt it after this season
We’ll definitely have Baker, Slowey, and Blackburn, and I would guess Duensing because he was so key to our late season success. I’d also guess we re-sign Pavano or else get another SP through trade or free agency. Beyond that, there’s no room for Perkins in the rotation.
And that’s not even factoring in whether there’s any bad feelings between Perkins and the Twins managment.
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 25, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What i'm trying to get at
is that the suggested deal isn’t fair and doesn’t help the other team. Unless there is a wealth of untapped potential that the brewers see, guys like Perkins and Liriano don’t help at all.
Lefties who throw in the mid-90s are really rare and valuable
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
or not
The point still stands that if neither can pitch effectively, they don’t have value to a team that needs people to pitch effectively.
Potential counts
Both have had stretches of brilliance in their careers. They have shown that they can pitch effectively. Perhaps a change of scenery will get them back to pitching effectively.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Bartlett and Garza
Because Garza isnt a problem child anymore or because Bartlett cant stay healthy? It was addition by subtraction with that trade and of course they both had good first seasons but come on man you gotta admit that they are better off without those two in the club house.
They were very good players with the Twins
Shortstop was instantly a black hole after the trade. And the starting staff has not exactly been stellar, especially last year. We needed them more than a left fielder who hits like a second baseman.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Who would trade quality.....
Especially when the news is banding about that Harris and Crain may not reach arbitration. Perkins is in the doghouse. The Twins need to decide between Gomez/Young. Is there any wants for Punto, Casilla, Tolbert.
The players teams will look at are Slowey, Blackburn. Maybe Swarzak as aprt of a apckage. Valencia. Teams will help the Twins break up the outfield problem by asking for Span. Why trade for Crain if you would rather have Rauch or Guerrier.
And the Twins may have waited too long to trade some minor league chips who will either walk and disappear as free agents, or get plucked in the Rule 5.
The Twins have a big problem when they have to consider keeping all of names like Harris, Tolbert, Punto, Casilla, Tolleson, Plouffe, Dinkelman, Singleton, Toby Gardenhire. Whew! Why keep any of them. All interchangeable and you can find a likely replacement for above minimum or close to $2-3 million if push came to shove.
Right now, the Twins probably have their most valuable bargaining chip in Jose Morales, someone they could live without as a backup catcher/DH for a year (or until Ramos) and is easily replaceable. Hell, Corky Miller is still out there!
Sadly the Twins have burnt some bridges with players (Perkins) that could hurt as trade bait, basically the player becoming a throw-in…except the Twins can still resign them and keep them another season. But hate to see them let talent walk. But they always do……
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
I would only trade Nathan
if two options are met:
1. If Slama is ready for the big club. This is key! If we trade Nathan, we must have a good option to go to for the ninth inning rather than just having a platoon (as we have had at 2B). We could slide Rauch or Mijares or even Guerrier to the ninth, but I think they do a much better job as set up men rather than closers.
2. We must get good value in return for Nathan. Nathan’s value at this point is high, despite blowing the last two games of the playoffs for the Twins. Nathan should net the club at least one proven major league player, plus two high ball prospects. Now, you may say that we did not get this for Santana who is even more valuable in terms of rotation material. I think Bill Smith learned his lesson with the Garza/Santana trades and now will be more “pushy” for a proven player and two high ball prospects.
If those two terms are met, then yes, lets trade Nathan! If the Twins do not have a contingency plan after Nathan, then I do not believe we should trade him until that contingency plan has been met. Similarly, if option 2 is not met, then Nathan should not be traded. Both must be met in order to trade Nathan!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
If they can get an ace starter and a good young shortstop in return, then maybe
Maybe the Rays would trade Bartlett and Garza for him.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
This could be done
Somehow work out a three way Nathan for Hardy deal. In no way do the Brewers want Nathan. And then with the cost savings, you sign Harden!
by Milt on Tilt on Oct 26, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Nathan
The Twins don’t need to trade Nathan. But he could be ahd for the right price. Bill Smith is in the driver’s seat. After all the sigings and such, if a team still needs a closer and they wish to be competetive, they can always ask the Twins and make a “blow your socks off” offer.
The Twins don’t have to trade Nathan.
They needed to trade Santana.
They needed to up[grade, at the time, because of the loss of Hunter and thought Bartlett and Garza were expendable (Punto at short, Young taking Hunter’s bat in the line-up, maybe a CF speedster coming in a Santana trade). You can’t say Bill Smith blue it. He was trying to fill holes. Garza was expendable according to the Twins. Shouldn’t have been, but was (considering the Twins were also losing Santana). But to get Young, a fellow #1, the Twins needed to trade talent for talent. Who knew.
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I am not saying Smith blew it
Smith did what he had to do, but according to the other offers on the table that were being mixed around (Bos – Ellsbury and Lowrie/Bucholz/other for Santana) and NY (Cabrera and Hughes), going with NYM didnt seem to be the best move. However, at the time, NYM may have been the only team with the offer on the table, at least that is what the Twins FO says.
So, I, in no way, blame Smith for the trade of Santana, due to its necessity, or for the Garza, Bartlett/Delmon, Harris swap, because at the time, that seemed a very good deal, though Bartlett for Harris was a bit extreme!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
I blame him for the Delmon trade
That was a trade he felt he had to make, but he really didn’t. Guys like Delomn are pretty easy to find. Guys like Bartlett, not so much. Guys like Garza are very rare.
He undervalued Garza and Bartlett and he overvalued Delmon. It was not anything like a consensus that the deal looked even at the time of the trade. Most SABR people thought it was a horrible trade from day one. They were right. If anything, it turned out much worse than they predicted. It is the worst Twins trade since they sold Jim Kaat for $500 and he went onto two consecutive 20-win season for our biggest rival.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I'll fault him for the trade
but not for acquiring Delmon. He was a 21 year old that showed promise, that the scouts still loved. It was clear he had strike zone issues, but the scouts were confident he would discover this.
And like I’ve said before, Garza was a pitcher with a 1.60 WHIP in over 100 innings. He showed promise, like Delmon, and was loved by the scouts, to a lesser degree. A lot of intelligent people were even calling Garza-Delmon in favor of the Twins. (Not the trade as a whole)
by Milt on Tilt on Oct 26, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Garza was a beast
He had the best minor league career of any Twins pitcher in history.
Scouts loved him because he had the rare combination of heat and control.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
beast
meh. ok.
He didn’t fit the Twins mold of strike-thrower though. I think they were right in assessing his ability (not a true ace/future Cy Young contender), but I still think they undervalued him.
by Milt on Tilt on Oct 26, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
"Didn't fit the Twins mold"
Every team need a guy who can dominate. The guys who fit the “Twins mold” don’t dominate. They mostly just get by with their 6 innings and three runs allowed.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Garza's numbers
2006, age 22, with Twins: 4.57 FIP (50 innings)
2007, age 23, with Twins: 4.18 FIP (83 innings)
When you take those numbers and his age into consideration, and like cmatthewson said, his minor league pedigree, Garza was a very valuable asset in retrospect. And Bartlett had just came off of back to back 3 WAR seasons. I agree with cmath, we really undervalued our own guys in that trade.
Unless you thought Delmon would develop into a 4-5 WAR type player – hitting something like .290/.350/.550 with ok defense (and his defense was so much worse than expected, IMO) – I don’t see why the Twins would make the trade at the time.
Hunter........
Looking to repalce Hunter. That’s what Delmon was.
No one thought Span would contribute, really. Didn’t know if Santana would bring Melky, Ellsbury, Coco Crisp or a prospect. The Twins got Delmon thinking he would grow into a Hunter at the plate. Then they wanted to add a centerfielder who would coevr ground and get hits (Lew Ford of Jason Tyner…not).
If the Twins had not included Garza, who would they have sent instead?
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