GM Meetings Day 3: Open Thread
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:38 AM EST
in News
115 comments
2:27 pm: Twins begin extension talks with Joe Mauer's agent.
1:10 pm: Some post-lunch news from around the league...
- The Miama Herald thinks Dan Uggla is still likely to be dealt. So...no changes there.
- It sounds like Rich Harden is healthy, at least. I'm sure the Twins are still an outside shot to sign him.
- Remember when some of us really wanted the Twins to chase Garrett Atkins? Well, he might be had for next to nothing pretty soon.
2:45 am: That's right, I get an early start!
• It sounds like the Reds will need to cut payroll. With the Twins still in "adding" mode, would they take a hard look at starters like Aaron Harang or Bronson Arroyo? Or would they attempt to take a run at second baseman Brandon Phillips?
• We already knew that Carl Pavano would test the free agent market and that he would garner some interest from around the league, and it sounds like Cleveland could host a return.
• HOW DOES LIVAN HERNANDEZ KEEP GETTING WORK?
• Some people think the Phillies would rather chase Mark DeRosa than Adrian Beltre. If that’s true it’s one less major hurdle the Twins would have to overcome, if they have interest in him.
• Wednesay morning Joe Mauer question: If you’re offering Joe an extension this off-season, what’s your opening offer?
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Look at that formatting!
Or lack thereof…it’s what I get for trying to post this from a place that’s not my computer…
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 7:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Phillips
I just saw that on mlbtr too, and i think phillips would be awesome. How much do you think he would cost? Im just assuming they want pitching because they are the Reds…
An infield of Morneau, Phillips, Hardy, and (cross your fingers) Valencia would be great
by DaTwins on Nov 11, 2009 8:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm guessing pitching...
…and I bet they won’t choose well, either. The Reds don’t have the most sensible scouts. I bet Liriano, Swarsak/Perkins, and Casilla/Tolbert gets the job done. How long is Phillips’ contract?
Also, Jesse, remember that Ponson keeps getting work too, which is one of the great mysteries of the universe.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Nov 11, 2009 8:34 AM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Phillips would be an awesome addition
and if Cincinnati is looking to shed payroll, it may not break the bank as far as prospects are concerned. He’s signed two more years with a club option for 2012:
2010: $6.75M
2011: $11.0M
2012: $12.0M club option with $1M buyout
He’s a bit more expensive than I thought, but he’s a good defender who has averaged about 3.75 WAR the past three years. Would be a huge upgrade at 2B, but with a good sized cost.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 11, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep...
This really might be the way to go this offseason. With pitching so scarce, maybe it makes more sense to pour money into the offense. With Phillips, it’s conceivable that the Twins have the best lineup in baseball next year. And we should have a damn good bullpen next year IMO. So you could probably afford to have a “lesser” staff if you have a great offense and bullpen.
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch.
I have a hard time seeing the Twins spending that kind of money, especially given the Mauer contract (please God).
Speaking of Mauer, at what point do we worry that we haven’t heard anything?
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Nov 11, 2009 12:38 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
In different interviews
he said he didn’t want to “rush” anything and that it would “happen when it happens”. He seems to be in no hurry.
He needs to realize that the people of Minnesota are anxiously awaiting news of his future here.
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I figured it wouldn't be fast...
…which is why I’m having such a hard time figuring out what the “what’s the problem?” date is. I was thinking that if there’s nothing by the winter meetings, it’s time to sweat.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Nov 11, 2009 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that's probably good cutoff time.
I can’t imagine he’ll wait too long. At least, that’s my hope.
Then again, I’m about 110% positive he’ll stay here no matter what, so maybe I’m just delusional.
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With his defense,
Phillips is a similar player in overall value to Uggla. I bet he’d be way cheaper in terms of prospects. His contract is large, but he is worth much more than that (about 45 mil compared to 30 he’s making), so if they can afford it, it would be a good pickup. When I say afford it, I mean afford that and Mauer’s new contract.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Equity
Now that we have a SS locked up I would prefer that starting pitching is focused on instead of infield.
I would not mind Harang or Arroyo but I have heard a few smidgens from ESPN that Twins have an interest in Harden.
And I would offer Mauer equity in the team. Or maybe a 12 Mil 15 year contract.
by clutterheart on Nov 11, 2009 9:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
no way
you do not offer a catcher, even one as good as Mauer, a 15 year contract. That is absurd, and I think the Twins would be the first team to ever offer a player a 15 year contract.
I would offer Mauer 5 years, $95-97 Million.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
small point...
but Magic Johnson signed a 25-year contract early in his career.
I agree you couldn’t offer Mauer that though. I’d offer a 6-year deal, with a 7th year team option and tear up this year’s contract. Something like: 18/20/20/20/20/20, with another 20 million option. So total value of 6 years/118, with a 20 mill option.
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I should
have said baseball team. Magic Johnson was an amazing player but he plays basketball, which generally is a little less injury prone and not as hard on the body as catcher.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wuld offer........
a lfietime contract, if he so desired, keeping him in the organization above and beyond his playing days as a revolving coach/executive. So, 15-30 years at, say $175-200 million would not be out of the question. If he has 10 good years, you essentially got him for $150 million and another $50 million to be backup, coach, vice president and all for 20 years…the rest of his career…which would be a bargain. Set it up so he can stay with Twins baseball, get a desk, be a star…and hope that he holds up to play for at least 15 years…maybe even more.
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
by rosterman on Nov 11, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He would get
25 million for 7 years from someone. 12 mil for 15 years is “only” 5 million more over the life of the contract. I also have major doubts he would sign for 97 million.
Unfortunately to the twins his value is more than simply “player” or “position.” Its a marketing imperative to sign him. If they don’t, expect congressional investigations. I am not sure I like it especially with Ramos in wings but that is the hand we were dealt.
by clutterheart on Nov 11, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Phillips
If I were the Twins, I would offer quantity over quality based on the Reds scouting system. Perkins, Delaney, Waldrop/Fox, Casilla and Pridie for Phillips.
Phillips is a decent defender as far as I know, and a power hitting 2B. This makes him intriguing…Uggla is a power 2B but no defender.
Phillips would move Punto to 3B, who would split time there with Crede, if he re-signs, for the first 3 months of the season. This would make our infield defense the best in the league, probably, and our infield offense, provided Hardy goes back to slugging 20 homers, etc. – one of the best in the league, behind only NY.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 9:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
maybe throw
in a few extra names (minor league players) to attempt to get Harang or Arroyo from the Reds as well.
Perkins, Liriano, Delaney, Waldrop/Fox, Casilla and Pridie for Phillips and Harrang/Arroyo.
Fill in any of your open roster spots with Rule 5 draft pickups and minor league contracts.
Philips isnt a prototypical #2 hitter however, so wehere would Gardy have him hit in the lineup?
1. Span – CF
2. Phillips – 2B
3. Mauer – C
4. Morneau – 1B
5. Cuddyer – RF
6. Kubel – DH
7. Hardy – SS
8. Young – LF
9. Crede/Punto – 3B
1. Harrang/Arroyo
2. Baker
3. Slowey
4. Blackburn
5. Duensing/Swarzak
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes......
It’s time to move some of these pieces that have been around. The Twins CAN take a chance and lose some names like Delaney (of Slama), plus Fox/Waldrop. Casilla can still be sold as potential, especially, maybe, to a National league team. Dangling Liriano out there can be enticing to a team (and the Twins could also dangle Blackburn, whose long-term with the Twins is far from necessary and he probably ahs his msot value right now). Pridie…why not dangle Benson, Bigley, even Lis or Parmelee. You can even throw Plouffe out there in trade talks, really, probably.
Perkins….yes. Let’spull off a monster trade with the Reds before 40-man rosters have to be set, clearing out some of those on-the-bubble prospects the Twins don’t have room to protect or who may be by-passed in the year-or-wo they’d sit in the minors before even a slim possibility of a call-up.
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
by rosterman on Nov 11, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't want any part of Arroyo in the AL again...
Harang would have a chance to be good with his stuff. But I see Arroyo as a #4/5 starter in the AL, which we have plenty of.
Plus, each of them makes $12 M this year. That’s a lot of cash to give up, and I doubt the Reds would take on any more than $4 M or so max.
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I’d much rather see if Harang can recapture his form than hope Arroyo can now pitch well in the AL. Problem is, Harang feels like another horse that Dusty Baker has run into the ground…
by Adam Peterson on Nov 11, 2009 10:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why would the Reds want
Liriano, Casilla and Pridie? – Especially since then they would have to clear roster space to find room for those guys.
They would say, “No, keep those players, give us Gibson instead”
by clutterheart on Nov 11, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can't trade Gibson
A team must keep a player for at least a year after drafting him.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Plus, I get the feeling that the Reds arent looking for first rounders when they will attempt to shift Phillips etc…they will look for cheap players who have some potential, i.e. Liriano/Perkins and Casilla.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
give us Gibson
might as well keep Harang, Arroyo, and Phillips. Gibson didnt come cheaply. They are attempting to clear salary players. Liriano, Casilla, and Pridie are all good players (at least Casilla and Liriano) and have lots of potential, especially if they move to the NL, and they are cheap players (in terms of moola).
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We have a #2 hitter...
his name is Joe Mauer!!
I think if we had one of the following, Cuddy, Phillips, and Kubel to bat in the #3 spot that would allow them to have Mauer in that #2 spot where he’d get a few extra at bats a year. I know Gardy wants to have a speedy guy there, but I want a guy that is going to get a TON of hits.
by TrevorR on Nov 11, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way....
Here’s the rest of Phillips’ contract:
2010:$6.75M,
2011:$11M,
2012:$12M club option ($1M buyout)
Seems reasonable.
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 10:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don't think Phillips will be too expensive
I’m not against pursuing a trade for him. That contract may be reasonable, but at a time when teams are shedding value, he won’t have a ton of demand. I’m guessing this could be done more on a multi-player salary swap with maybe a nice prospect thrown in…
by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 11, 2009 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd offer...
something like Perkins/Swarzak/Delaney, and possibly Plouffe.
The other nice things about Phillips are that:
1) he adds even more pop to the lineup.
2) he actually adds speed.
3) he adds another RH bat to the lineup. With him (and Valencia at 3b) we’d actually have five RH hitters!
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Adding Phillips would definitely increase the Twins offensive production. At that point, it becomes almost, “Who cares if Baker gives up 5 runs over 5 innings?”.
Morneau – 1B (30 Homers)
Phillips – 2B (25 Homers)
Hardy – SS (25 Homers)
Crede/Punto – 3B (15-20 Homers/1 Homer)
Mauer – C (20 Homers)
Entire infield could potentially produce 120 Homers, providing that Hardy returns to form and Crede remains healthy for a portion of the season! Add Cuddyer (25 Homers), Young (15 Homers), Span (5 Homers), and Kubel (30 Homers) to that (plus any off the bench), and the Twins have a team that could potentially hit 195+ Homers!
That to me, is a powerful lineup! Phillips, now that he has been made available, should be the one the Twins chase. If the Twins manage to get Phillips, I would not mind Punto playing 3B about 4x a week.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2011 is a tough year already
Mauer’s contract will almost double. Every other player under contract as of now will get a raise. That $11 M for a second baseman scares me.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 11, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Especially since this means Punto at 3B
by clutterheart on Nov 11, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pavano and Cleveland
I seriously doubt either side would go back. Cleveland’s in rebuilding mode, Pavano would not be the “last piece” of the puzzle there. Why would they give Pavano a decent contract? Doesn’t make sense to me, unless they want him as a mentor to the young pitchers.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 11, 2009 10:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mark DeRosa vs Adrian Beltre
Philly is probably considering both, who would I take:
- Salary: Both are free agents. Beltre’s coming off the huge contract, DeRosa off a much smaller deal. DeRosa would probably be a bit cheaper than Beltre. How much may very well depend on who signs first and whether teams get desperate. My gut? Beltre gets $3-4M more per year and at least one additional year compared to DeRosa.
- Defense: Beltre is far and away a better fielder than DeRosa. For his career at 3B, Beltre is a +13.9 UZR/150, while DeRosa is a -6.5. In other words, about a 20 run difference defensively.
- Offense: Career wOBA is almost the same, .335 for Beltre versus .334 for DeRosa. Over the past three years, Beltre has averaged +3.2 RAA while DeRosa has averaged +9.0 runs. However, these numbers are skewed by ballparks. DeRosa had a huge 2008 in Wrigley Field, while Beltre has hit in spacious Safeco. I think with the Twins, there would be a 5-10 run difference in favor of Beltre.
Overall, I’d value Beltre at about 20-30 runs above DeRosa. In all likelihood, more than the gap that we’ll see in their salaries. I’d choose Beltre, easily.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 11, 2009 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I think another thing to consider though, Adam....
is versatility. DeRosa can play 2b and the OF as well. I think they’ll get about the same amount of money, personally.
by DJSkillz on Nov 11, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2B versatility would help
but for us, OF versatility wouldn’t help as much. I suppose it would give us insurance if Delmon performs well below replacement level once again, but Gardy has already shown us in the past that Delmon’s performance on the field is not necessarily correlated to his playing time. Aaahhh…to have “potential”.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 11, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this "versatility" is overrated
I can almost guarantee you that Beltre would be a better second baseman than DeRosa. He just doesn’t play anywhere else because he’s one of the best at third. DeRosa moves around because he’s not that good anywhere.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Phillips Vs. Felipe Lopez
I guess I’d rather see us go after Felipe Lopez. Lopez fills 2B and gives us a good 2 hitter which we don’t have right now. Don’t even say Mauer because we all know Gardy isn’t about to do that again. Lopez doesn’t hit for as much power but their career OPS is about the same with Phillips at .742 and Lopez at .738. They’re roughly the same age and Lopez likely will be a much cheaper contract than Phillips. That and the fact That Lopez is a free agent and will cost no prospects makes him the far better choice in my opinion.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on Nov 11, 2009 11:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed they are about the same offensively
but Phillips is a better defender, which makes him a better player overall. If the gap between costs is large, then Lopez would be the guy to go with. As far as prospects go, Phillips might not cost that much, as the reds are trying to shed salary.
Again, Phillips is probably slightly better (although Lopez was better overall last year, looking at career numbers I’d go with Phillips) so it really depends on what it takes to get either of these guys.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How much better?
The market for second basemen is such that we could probably get Lopez for less than $6 million a year for two years without giving up any players. Philips will cost much more than that in dollars and players. His small upgrade in defense is not worth the added cost.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 11, 2009 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lopez' value is uncertain
more so than others, including Phillips IMO. With Phillips, you have a pretty good chance of 3-4 WAR. With Lopez, he could repeat his 2008 or 2005 (4.6 WAR) or the three years in between (averaged 0.9 WAR).
Between the two, I’d rather sign Lopez to the 2-6 than trade for Phillips. Even if we got Phillips for free, I’d rather have the extra $$ to address 3B or SP.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 12, 2009 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 12, 2009 12:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Opening offer to Mauer
Target Field, 80% stake in the Twins, 60% stake in the Vikings (I’m assuming we can get Zygi Wilf on board).
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Nov 11, 2009 11:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Only if he'll play QB for them from November on.
Assuming Favre retires this year then T-Jack can help the Vikings along until Joe comes in and plays QB for the last two months and the playoffs.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
by halfchest on Nov 11, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The rights to become governor after he retires as well.
And maybe a key to the city? Just a thought.
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When you extend the Kube's contract...
….all he needs is ownership of the Potbelly sandwich shop in the IDS Tower.
The beard abides.
by Jason Kubel's Beard on Nov 11, 2009 12:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I love Kubel's beard.
His comments are legendary.
by Neil on Nov 11, 2009 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mauer contract
6 years $140M extension with a $30M 7th year option, $3M buyout. That locks him up for 8 years.
by DJL44 on Nov 11, 2009 12:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If I'm Mauer
I argue that I am more valuable than Mark Teixeira, who signed an 8 year/$180 million contract as a free agent last winter, and that I am younger than he at free agency.
Yes, my durability as a catcher is less certain, but playing catcher at my level with my bat is virtually unheard of in baseball history. I acknowledge that I am a year away from FA, but there’s no way I settle.
7 year extension starting in 2011 for $170 million. That makes my next 8 years worth a tiny bit more than Teixeira, which seems minimally fair.
by Eric in Madison on Nov 11, 2009 12:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
How bad does he want to stay in MN
I think this organization will be willing to meet his demands, but I also think Joe is smart enough to realize that the money he takes is coming out of the pockets of potential free agents down the road. I say 6 years, $120 million. The odds of him being worth more that $20 mil/year after that point is pretty slim (you can always strike up another conversation in year 5). He obviously could make more in NY or Boston. It is going to come down to how bad he wants to be on a winning team in MN.
by dakotadave on Nov 11, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's expressed interest in staying in Minnesota several times.
It’s really going to come down to how much of a hometown discount he’ll take. They can’t offer him a lot less than he’s worth, that’s not going to go over well or make him want to stick around. But I think he genuinely likes it here and doesn’t want to leave.
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cost of living...
you think this comes into the picture with his decision too? If he signs with NY, the cost of living out there is HUGE! A million dollar house here is about 4 million out there. I wonder if someone like Joe takes that into account as well. Sure it doesn’t make a $60 million difference but I think it allows MN to undercut NY a little and still keep the value there.
by TrevorR on Nov 11, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See: 1970-1974
“…playing catcher at my level with my bat is virtually unheard of in baseball history.”
"If you have a spaceship and are looking for a hilarious astronaut with an irregular heartbeat and thirty million dollars, I am prepared to leave as soon as tomorrow."
by Fat Vegas Alan on Nov 11, 2009 11:20 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Risky Pitchers
You think the Twins would take a shot at Ben Sheets. He’s been a great pitcher in the past but was off last year recovering from surgury. I know the Twins aren’t going to shell out the big bucks for a stud so do you look at someone like Sheets who has a high upside but also a chance to bust out?
by TrevorR on Nov 11, 2009 2:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
depends
on what Sheets wants. I say give him a salary like Crede’s so he can prove himself. $2-3 Million guaranteed with $500,000 coming for every 100, 150, 175, 200 innings pitched. Also, give him a $5 Million option for 2011. This will give him a chance to prove himself and is a low risk, high reward pitcher for the Twins.
Based on the fact that Sheets probably wants to prove himself, I would sign him. Harden and Bedard will demand more egregious contracts, so Sheets would be the pitcher I would go with.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we trade for Phillips
who goes #2?
Hardy – career .323 OBP (career .322 OBP batting 2nd)
Phillips – career .312 OBP (career .288 OBP batting 2nd)
Punto – career .322 OBP (career .329 OBP batting 2nd)
These are the only possible options I see for #2, unless Gardy all of a sudden puts Mauer 2nd, which isn’t going to happen. I would have to say I would put Punto 2nd.
1. Span – CF
2. Punto – 3B
3. Mauer – C
4. Morneau – 1B
5. Cuddyer – RF
6. Kubel – DH
7. Phillips – 2B
8. Hardy – SS
9. Young – LF (best spot in the order in limited ABs)
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 2:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
PUNTO?!?!
No way…Mauer is what he SHOULD do, but he won’t. I don’t know much about Philips, but I guess I’d go with him. Punto has NO right to bat in such an important spot. Maybe he can earn his way back up there but I would be PISSED if he got that spot. Punto and Delmon need to be at the bottom.
by TrevorR on Nov 11, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tough call because none of them are ideal.
I might go with Punto, too…provided it’s the patient Punto. That’s the problem with him, he’s streaky and he doesn’t always do those things the team heralds him for doing. I can also see Hardy hitting second, if it can’t be Joe.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Punto......
He is the super-sub. Nothing more, nothing less. If someone goes down, you can live with him playing the position. If everyone is healthy, you leave him on the bench. The rality, though….what does he bring to the bench and super-stud status that is different than, say, Tolbert or even Harris. That contract is a killer. I mean, once the Twins didn’t want to pay Denny Hocking a mil to be the 300-AB reserve infielder.
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
by rosterman on Nov 11, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely, I agree.
And it’s pretty much what I’ve thought about Punto from the day he came to the Twins. But in the situation laid out, I might have to hit him second.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
If Punto could hit like he did in September, then I would be more than happy to let him sit in that spot! However, if it is the usual April-June Punto (i.e. .200-.211), I want no part of him.
If they do trade for Phillips (which I think is reasonable, but I am not BS), then would the Twins re-sign Crede to a similar contract like he had last year? Or would they just stick with Tolbert/Punto/Harris at 3B?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know why punto would hit second.
His obp would be about on par with phillips’s, and the slugging wouldn’t be close. The most important rule of lineup construction is to give the better hitters the most plate appearances. Anything on top of that is secondary.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually
if you look at Phillips career OBP in the #2 hole and Punto’s (both of which I have provided above), I would definitely go with Punto!!!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Small sample size
taking numbers from someone in a certain lineup spot are basically meaningless. With Punto, they are especially misleading, because Gardy sticks him in the 2 hole when he’s hitting well.
Phillips projects to be about .320 OBP (he’s been around there for the last 5 years, and was .329 last year). Punto projects about .330 OBP. With numbers that close, you go with the better hitter. No reason to give punto more plate appearances than phillips because of 10 points in OBP, when the slugging difference is .430 to .310(!).
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t care what he’s batted the few times he’s played in that spot…we know what Punto will give us, we watch it every year. He’s NOT a number 2 hitter. He just isn’t. He’s not even starting material in my book. You throw him out there as your “6th man” the first off the bench if needed for the infield. I just can’t understand how we can consider playing a career .248 batter who is just as likely to bat .200 as he is .280. Its just not worth the risk.
by TrevorR on Nov 12, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Contract Extension
talks have begun with Mauer’s agent!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Charlie Walters.
For whatever it’s worth. Link at the top.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MLBtraderumors
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was the best news all day!
“Everything in time … it’ll work out — I hope, and I’m pretty sure,” Bell said this morning. “I feel good about it because I think he wants to stay here, and we sure want him to be here and all of his teammates want him to be here.”
Not to mention a bazillion Twins fans who want him to be here. The bazillion is just a rough estimate on my part.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Nov 11, 2009 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jesse
tell me if my understanding is wrong:
Twins have Mauer locked up for this coming year at 12.5 Million. Twins sign Mauer to a 5 year contract, lets say, at $95 Million. This contract starts in the spring of 2011. Thus, the Twins do not have to worry about any additional money going to Mauer this year, other than the money already owed to him from the previous contract. New contract does not begin until 2011, when even more revenue will be had from TF.
Thus, if I have my understanding correct, the Twins could potentially trade for Phillips, who has a 6.75 Million contract owed to him in 2010. This is about 19 Million committed to 2B and Catcher in 2010. With the gradual rise in payroll from TF, the Twins should both be able to afford Phillips and Mauer. Or is my understanding of contracts flawed?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You're interpretation is correct,
but I’d be surprised if Joe plays 2010 under his old contract. It could happen, but I do think it’s more likely the Twins tear up his ’07 contract and extend him with a new base for next season. He could end up getting $15MM+ next season.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of times they will just throw out the other contract and just start fresh, which would mean an increase next year. In this case, I’d think they wouldn’t do that, so they can pay him more when more revenue is coming in.
The other problem, is that Phillips is due an extra 5 mil, Mauer would be due an extra 10 or something, and lots of other guys would be getting raises. Not sure the added revenues would make up for it.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim knows us well
That hardly qualifies as news, but I’m guessing Twins fans on this site crave every detail.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I deleted the other one for you.
It happens sometimes if the sysem lags.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From a comment on MLBTR
I feel if Mauer really wants to stay he will take a pretty good hometown discount to stay in Minneasota and allow for the Twins to spend the money not spent on Mauer to make the team better. I am sure he knows he could get upwards of 25 million from either the yankees or the red sox, but if he really wants to stay in Minneasota and to win he knows he will be taking a discount.
This is true! Mauer probably will give the Twins an enormous hometown discount because he wants to win and he wants the Twins to get the players that will help him win! Think of Puckett, who took a major “salary cut” by staying with the Twins and not going to NY, which was offering him a huge contract. Puckett wanted to win and so does Mauer – thus, he will take less money in order that the Twins can use some of that money to improve the team by signing good players.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Lot of morons over there right now, too.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope he doesn't take much of a hometown discount
I can’t see why I should want money in Pohlad’s pockets that ought to be in Mauer’s. I suggested a 7 year extension starting in 2011 at $170 million. I think that would be fair. My actual guess is that he signs for a little less than that—say 6/140 or so.
by Eric in Madison on Nov 11, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you would rather
have Mauer sign an egregious contract and restricting improvement in other areas? You think that the Pohlads are going to keep the money in their pockets and not help improve the team? The father may have done that, but I think the son will give the Twins money to both sign Mauer and improve the team (i.e. Phillips, Harden, Sheets, etc.)
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I doubt it
But my point is, Mauer should get what he deserves. It isn’t his job to help the owner contend on the cheap. It’s management’s job to build a competitive team; if they think Mauer is a part of that, pay the guy what he deserves, don’t ask him to hand you a give back.
by Eric in Madison on Nov 11, 2009 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, to an extent.
Mauer wants to win more than anything, and quite frankly, the Twins give him as good a chance to go to the playoffs each year as anyone else. That being said, we have to offer him something real. Our starting point can’t be any less than 5/$100. Depending on what Mauer wants (and I’m not convinced a 6+ year contract is what he has in mind), I seriously doubt he’ll take less than $23/yr. But you’re right about the discount, because there’s no doubt in my mind that the big payrolls wouldn’t be happy to pay him $27+/yr.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Nov 11, 2009 4:40 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Who would you rather have?
Beltre – 3 years, $30 Million
or
Phillips – 3 years, #30 Million
Crede for one year, $2 Million with incentives – when Crede goes down, the Valencia era begins. Would you spend the money on Beltre, thus delaying Valencia, or would you spend it on Phillips and get a premier 2B?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1
Crede on the field last year, was a better defender than Beltre and almost as good with the bat. Valencia, as has been said, is the 3B of the future, so signing Crede for a year (probably only 3-4 months of the season) would allow Valencia to gain more experience in AAA.
Phillips in the meantime improves our infield defense and vastly improves our offense.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…and keeps Punto on the bench where he should be! :-)
by TrevorR on Nov 12, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Betre and Phillips are similar players in terms of overall value
both about 3 WAR players. So for the same price, I’d probably take Phillips, as we have options for third for the future, and Phillips is 2 years younger. But, if Phillips is the same price + prospects, that might change things. Remember, that Beltre’s numbers should go up when he leaves Seattle.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that depends
would we make beltre wear a cup?
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Nov 12, 2009 12:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Depends on who we'd be giving up for Phillips
Not entirely an apples to apples comparison. To trade for Phillips, we’d have to give up prospects. This could tip the scales away from Phillips. Also, if we got Beltre (or Figgins) for 3B, I wouldn’t be as concerned about delaying the Valencia era. He would become a trade piece in that scenario.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 12, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like the rest of the division is busy trying to get worse
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Also, if the Yankees got Curtis Granderson...
I’m not even going to go there.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 11, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
let them!
White Sox – trade for Teahan
Tigers – may trade Granderson
Royals – may trade Callaspo
Indians – ???
Let them get rid of some of their best players! The Twins are just getting better!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Indians are most like going to have a "rebuilding year"
I doubt they take Pavs back, and have a young starting rotation. I don’t see them as contenders next year. :\
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and.
Trading away Granderson? F’real? Huh.
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Could you imagine this?
Twins trade for Granderson and Callaspo. Then, they re-sign Crede and Pavano.
Twins have all of the other AL Central teams on their team: Granderson (DET), Callaspo (KC), Crede (CHW) and Pavano (CLE). This would be hilarious!!!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Tigers weren't in our division
I’d look long and hard at getting Granderson, moving Span over the LF…
by Adam Peterson on Nov 12, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you were the Twins
would you look at Josh Towers? He was recently released by the Yanks, but had a very nice line in AAA. We could sign him to a minor league contract as a spot starter/reliever. What say you?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 3:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ok, Jesse, quick question...
I saw the results of the SB Nation Cy Young Award voting…did you vote Greinke? He seemed to get all but one first place vote (Halladay?). Just wondering. :\
by fischean on Nov 11, 2009 4:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'll post those here shortly.
I went Greinke first. I remember that for sure.
by Jesse on Nov 11, 2009 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When will we be hearing about Nick Punto being traded for a minor leaguer?
That would save the Twins $4 million.
by benhertz on Nov 12, 2009 7:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
About the time that Gardy takes over another team
and trades for Punto.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 13, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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