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Organization Review (Starting Pitching)

The Twins have a minor league system that develops a continuous supply of starting pitchers.  Beginning with Scott Baker, who arrived in 2005, the Twins staff has seen Garza, Slowey, Perkins, Blackburn, Liriano and Bonser (the last two were obtained by trade) step up to become quality major league starters.  Add Swarzak, Manship and Duensing, who made their first appearances this season, and you have ten starting pitchers who have stepped up when needed over the past five years.  What is most interesting is that none of these (other than Liriano in 2005) would have been considered as top prospects by those who rank minor league systems and prospects.  Rather, they are a group of fine young athletes who have bought into what the organization teaches, an organization that continues to turn out solid starting pitchers. 

It is likely that two of the three who joined the Twins in 2009 will return to Rochester next spring to fine tune their game so that they are ready for a permanent spot in the rotation when the next call comes.  Who else is down on the farm who will be available later next year or in the years following?  This year's top ten starters all fit the mold of what the Twins look for and all could some day find themselves toiling on the mound at Target Field.      

Star-divide

The Tenth ranked starting pitcher in my year end ranking this season is a pitcher USA Today named the Twins Minor League Player of the Year last season, Michael McCardell.  The Twins sixth round pick in 2007 out of Kutztown University, McCardell was my seventh ranked pitcher following his break-out season at Beloit during which he had a 9-4 record with a 2.86ERA.  He also had 139 strikeouts with only 25 walks in 135.1 innings.  McCardell moved up to Ft. Myers this spring where he had an excellent first half with a 9-6 record, 3.93ERA and 78K/16BB in 94.0 innings.  McCardell earned a mid-summer promotion to New Britain where he pitched very well, yet, a couple outings took a toll on what could have been exceptional numbers.  McCardell closed out his AA season with a 5-2 record, 4.10ERA and 40K/16BB in 48.1 innings to be my twenty-third ranked pitcher in 2009.

Tyler Robertson was pitching as well as anyone in the pitching rich Florida State League when his season ended in June, 2008 with what was diagnosed as shoulder tendinitis.  Robertson finished with a 5-3 record, 2.72ERA and 73K/31BB in 82.2 innings to rank as my fourth best pitcher.  This year he returned to Ft. Myers and accomplished two goals by pitching the entire year and pitching very well.  Perhaps most important, he continued to improve throughout the year as evidenced by his 3.04 post all-star ERA.  Robertson finished his season with an 8-8 record and 3.33ERA.  He also had 103K/51BB in the team's second most innings pitched, 143.1, to finish 2009 as my twenty-second ranked pitcher and ninth ranked starter. 

My eighth ranked starter is a young man drafted by the Twins with a supplemental first round pick in 2004, Matt Fox.  Unfortunately, his arm had taken a beating during college and Fox missed all of 2005 following shoulder surgery.  He returned in 2006 and 2007, however, pitching limited innings each year.  Fox worked his way back into the starting rotation last year at Ft. Myers where he made 14 starts in 32 appearances with a 7-7 record and 3.37ERA.  Fox struck out 99 with 33 walks in 117.2 innings to rank thirtieth in my year end rankings.  This season Fox moved up to New Britain where he had an excellent season ranking amongst the Eastern League leaders with a 3.58ERA (5th in league), 120 strikeouts (3rd), 151.0 innings pitched (5th) and his 9-9 record tied him for the ninth most wins in the league.  Fox's excellent season moved him up 9 spots this year to number twenty-one and should earn him a promotion to Rochester in 2010. 

Brad Tippett has had a bit of an up and down career since signing with the Twins shortly before his eighteenth birthday in January, 2006.  This young Australian had a solid rookie season in the Gulf Coast League before being one of the top pitchers in the Appalachian League in 2007 when he had a 7-1 record and 0.93ERA working out of the Elizabethton bullpen.  Tippett earned a promotion to Beloit in spring, 2008 where he had a 2-1 record with a 4.24ERA in 13 games of relief.  When the Appy League began, however, the Twins moved Tippett back to Elizabethton where they converted him to a starter.  Tippett finished 2008 with a 8-3 record, 2.55ERA and 63K/9BB in 74.0 innings at Elizabethton to rank forty-first in my year end rankings.  This season Tippett returned to Beloit and was the one starting pitcher the Snappers could count on every fifth day.  Tippett, who was arguably one of the best pitchers in the league, compiled a 9-8 record on a team that won only 57 games and finished 26 games under .500.  Tippett finished his excellent season with the league's best WHIP (1.07), fifth best ERA (3.21), with 120 strikeouts (3rd best), only 25 walks and the league's fifth most innings (151.0).  Tippett's fine season earned him my nineteenth ranking as the organizaition's seventh best starter.

We all became very familiar with this year's sixth ranked starter, Jeff Manship, after he joined the Twins and pitched what he has called the game of his life the final weekend against the Royals.....to date that is!  Manship joined the Twins after being drafted in the 14th round of the 2006 draft out of Notre Dame University.  Jeff didn't sign with the Twins until August, thus, he appeared in only a few games late in the season for the GCL Twins and Miracle.  Yet, those few innings with the Miracle gave us a hint of what was to come.  Jeff began to rocket thru the organization the following year with a 7-1 record and 1.51ERA at Beloit before moving on to a 8-5 record and 3.15ERA in Ft. Myers.  Last season, Jeff began at Ft. Myers where he compiled a 7-3 record with a 2.86ERA in 78.2 innings with 63K/20BB.  The Twins moved Manship up to New Britain immediately after his start in the FSL All-Star game.  Jeff pitched very well in some games at AA, yet, struggled in a few to finish with a 3-6 record, 4.46ERA and 62K/24BB in 76.2 innings to finish off an excellent 2008 season as my sixth ranked pitcher.  This season began back at New Britain where Jeff was solid with a 6-4 record, 4.28ERA and 45K/20BB in 75.2 innings.  As the Twins were calling pitchers up to Minnesota, Jeff moved to Rochester to fill an opening in their starting rotation.  He proceded to become one of the Red Wings best starters with a 4-2 record and 3.22ERA in 50.1 innings with 30K/17BB.  After not being invited to join the Twins in spring training, it had to be rewarding to Jeff to get that call to the big leagues.  Based on his performance at New Britain and Rochester, Jeff had the thirteenth best season of all the pitchers.  It is likely that the pitcher we saw that last Friday night of the season is a pitcher we will see much more of for many years.

In the five years I have been compiling my year end rankings, I have never had a GCL pitcher rank in my Top 20.  This year I have two with Adrian Salcedo being my fifth ranked starter and ninth ranked pitcher.  Salcedo had an excellent season last year in the DSL where he had a 4-4 record, 1.65ERA and 50K/8BB in 65.1 innings as a seventeen year old.  Salecedo moved up to the GCL Twins this year where he was as good as anyone in the league, finishing with a 3-2 record and the league's seventh best ERA (1.46), fifth most innings (61.2), third most strikeouts (58) and league's eighth best WHIP (1.02).  Perhaps most astonishing, his THREE walks were less than any pitcher in the league with more than 40 innings pitched.  Salcedo won't turn 19 until late April, thus, it is likely he will spend his spring in EST before moving up to Elizabethton for the 2010 season.             

The fourth ranked starter and eighth ranked pitcher is Salcedo's GCL Twins teammate, B. J. Hermsen.  Hermsen was the Twins sixth round pick last year out of West Delaware, Iowa high school.  Hermsen played high school ball last summer before signing with the Twins shortly before the August signing deadline.  Hermsen participated in the Fall Instructional League last year then stayed in Florida for Extended Spring Training before joining the GCL Twins.  Hermsen joined Salcedo, Blayne Weller and Michael Tonkin to lead the GCL Twins to their second consecutive playoff appearance.  Hermsen finished his season with a 6-2 record, league third best 1.35ERA, league best 0.68 WHIP and 42 strikeouts in 52.1 innings.  Like Salcedo, Hermsen was a league leader with only 4 walks for his season.  Hermsen, who will turn 20 next month, may move up to Elizabethton next sping but a good spring training could push him straight to Beloit.

The third ranked starting pitcher and fourth ranked pitcher overall is Anthony Swarzak.  Swarzak was my twenty-second ranked pitcher in 2008 following a season in which he didn't appear to be motivated at New Britain where he had a 3-8 record with a 5.67ERA in 101.2 innings with 76K/37BB.  When the call came to move up to Rochester, Swarzak took advantage of the opportunity and seemed to be a different pitcher.  In seven starts (45.0 innings), Swarzak had a perfect 5-0 record with a 1.80ERA and 26K/14BB.  This season Swarzak was very good at Rochester where he compiled a 4-5 record with a 3.28ERA and 45K/21BB in 79.2 innings.  His numbers would have been better except for a couple starts following his demotion where he allowed 10 earned runs in 8.1 innings before finishing his season with a quality start against Division champion Scranton Wilkes-Barre.  When the opportunity to join the Twins arrived, Swarzak had several very good starts before several rough starts caused the Twins to send him back to Rochester.  The Twins have a handful of young starters who will be fighting for one or two spots in the rotation.  If Swarzak doesn't win one of those spots in spring training, it will be important that he remain mentally tough as opportunities will present themselves during the season.             

The second ranked starter and third ranked pitcher this year is Steven Hirschfield.  Last season Hirschfield was one of the top pitchers in the MidWest League where he led the team with a 10-5 record with an excellent 3.30ERA in 31 games (16 starts) with 80K/38BB in 109.0 innings to finish as my twenty-seventh ranked pitcher.  Hirschfield returned to the bullpen this season at Ft. Myers before moving into the starting rotation mid-season getting 17 starts in 32 appearances.  Hirschfield may have been the league's best pitcher (which is hard to say considering that teammate David Bromberg was the FSL Pitcher of the Year), as he finished with the league's second best ERA (2.23) and best WHIP (1.03) with 86K/31BB in 117.0 innings and a 7-7 record.  Hirschfield moved up twenty-four spots in this year's ranking and certainly would need to be considered a candidate for the Twins organizaiton most improved player.  Now pitching for Mesa in the Arizona Fall League, look for Hirschfield to move up to New Britain next spring.

The top ranked starting pitcher, David Bromberg, is the second ranked pitcher in my year end ranking.  Bromberg was my twenty-first ranked pitcher following his 2008 season when he had a 9-10 record and 4.44ERA in 150.0 innings for the Beloit Snappers.  What moved Bromberg into the upper echelons of prospects was his 177 strikeouts which led all of minor league baseball.  This season Bromberg moved up to Ft. Myers where he led the Florida State League with 148 strikeouts in 153.1 innings with the second most wins in the league (13-4) and the league's fourth best ERA (2.70) and ninth best WHIP (1.23).  This season was special for Bromberg, so special that he was named both the Florida State League's Pitcher of the Year and the Twins Minor League Pitcher of the Year.  Some will question whether Bromberg is really an elite starter and potential future Ace?  These past two seasons would seem to indicate that he just might be that good.  The next big test will be next year when he makes the critical jump to AA.  A similar performance to this year in AA will confirm that he just might be a future Ace?

Looking back over these past five years should make Twins fans hopeful that the stream of starting pitchers will continue to stock their rotation as needed.  Add last year's first round pick Kyle Gibson to this group and odds are good that there will continue to be another arm down on the farm when needed for another five years.          

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No future aces in there, but some talent

The Twins do churn out mid to back end starters probably better than anyone else in baseball.

I’m mildly surprised that Carlos Gutierrez didn’t make the list. And Deolis Guerra. (Actually, I have vague hopes that Guerra puts it together in New Britain in 2010. He’ll only be 21).

by Eric in Madison on Nov 11, 2009 7:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Guerra

what a failure! He won’t be 20 years old when he reaches the majors…good grief, that is why we all love Rick Porcello!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 11, 2009 7:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gutierrez started out great, but he tired

They kept throwing him out there with a dead arm just to give him innings and build up his stamina. So the numbers are a bit skewed fro him. He still should go to Rochester and start, but he might move into the bullpen late again. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in a Twins uniform in September.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 11, 2009 8:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

He did somewhat better at New Britain after he moved to the bullpen at New Britain and started to gain some strength back. I don’t know if he starts the year at Rochester or not, I think it may be New Britain with a mid-season move to Rochester. I expect he will start the season again as a starter, but I see him as a reliever when he gets to Minnesota.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I had Guerra ranked...

…at #29 which was a few spots below Robertson and McCardell. I had Gutierrez ranked with the relief pitchers which may, or may not, be the correct spot for him. You also didn’t see Brian Duensing who was ranked #27, then proceded to pitch his best baseball of the year for the Twins.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 7:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I assumed that Duensing didn't qualify

he pitched too much in the majors to qualify as a rookie in 2010.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 12, 2009 8:09 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What is an Ace?

In all open-mindedness, I am curious as to how people define “Ace,” and then also what minor league stats you use to determine if a guy will be an “Ace.”

I can understand if you reserve the Ace status for the types of guys who routinely finish in the top 4-5 in Cy Young voting, and by that measure I suppose there doesn’t seem to be anyone outside of Salcedo or Hermsen who might have that potential. Which is good, because those kind of guys are too expensive anyway.

by Han Joelo on Nov 12, 2009 9:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Reasonable question

I don’t know; I guess I think of it as a guy capable of regularly being the best pitcher on a good team. I can’t say it’s the best “X” pitchers in the league.

I also think minor league stats for pitchers are not as much of the story as they are for position players. But I still look at the classics: strikeouts, walks, homers allowed. The Twins lack guys who miss a lot of bats anywhere but the lowest levels. Bromberg is the exception, but scouting suggests he’s more of a deception guy than a stuff guy. That usually doesn’t work as well at higher levels.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 12, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is the last Twins Ace

Is Scott Baker an Ace? We all know Johan was. But would Brad Radke count as an “Ace” or just a solid #2-3=type guy.

Were any of the Twins pickups once “Aces” — Ponson, Livan Hernandez, Ortiz?

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Nov 12, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Before Johan, it was Morris

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 12, 2009 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I always counted Radke as an ace...

…which he could have been in his best years, but mostly it was probably just relative.

by Jesse on Nov 12, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Radke wasn't really an ace

He was a second or third starter who pitched for a team without an ace.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 12, 2009 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can we get 11-20?

The 20th best SP is way more interesting than the 10th best prospect at any position. I enjoy the reports, just want more detail. Another fanpost?

by DJL44 on Nov 12, 2009 9:48 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

11-20 were:

11 – Blayne Weller
12 – Tom Stuifbergen
13 – Brian Duensing
14 – Deolis Guerra
15 – Ryan Mullins
16 – Edgar Ibarra
17 – Liam Hendriks
18 – Jhon Garcia
19 – Michael Tonkin
20 – Bobby Lanigan

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The next 10......

Don’t look so bad in their own way.

Would Gabino have surfaced anywhere in the Top 20. Yohan Pino…does he still have life, ending his season as he did with Rochester?

Is there potential in Cole DeVries?

Did Beloit burn out pitchers last year — what happened to Dan Berlind and Dan Osterbrock?

And somewhere, in the bottom of the pile, is the guy with the great name…Shooter Hunt.

Any guesses on who will staff the rotation at Rochester/New Brit/Ft. Myers/Beloit in 2010?

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Nov 12, 2009 12:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gabino would have been...

…the eleventh ranked pitcher (sixth ranked starter). I didn’t grade Pino because he was gone before the year was over, but considering how well he pitched at Rochester I suspect he would have been in the top 5.

Cole DeVries was very good the first month of the season and also on the road. I recall that he had something like or approaching a double digit ERA at home with only a win or two. He has pitched very well at times and it remains to be seen whether he can master AA next season or if he will be another pitcher to hit the wall when he makes that all important move up to AA. He was my #49 ranked pitcher.

Osterbrock struggled at Beloit and was ranked #54. Dan Berlind got off to a terrible start then pitched better, finishing with my #57 ranking. As one would expect, Shooter Hunt was #79 of #79, yet he still has a huge upside if he can conquer whatever it is that is blocking his ability to pitch. He could be a pitcher who could move quickly thru the organization…but it starts with throwing the ball over the plate. A bit early rosterman to be speculating on who will be where next spring. First have to see what free agents are signed for Rochester, which of our own free agents are resigned and who, if anyone, is lost in the Rule V draft.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rankings

To be clear – this list is based on preformance only – is that correct?
So hypothetically, if a 4 year college pitcher dominates Low A he will get a high ranking.
Is that right?

by clutterheart on Nov 12, 2009 12:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yes and no

This is just based on Roger’s formula, which inputs numbers and outputs a ranking. But the numbers includes age and level.

It does not take into account upside, though. So it tends to rank pitchability guys over upside guys.

The biggest surprise for me is Duensing. Perhaps we need to tune the level part of the formula to give major league performance more weight. To me, Duensing is above Swarzak based on their respective major league performances.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 12, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

My ranking is based on minor league play only...

…with the exception that the base number of innings is adjusted for innings pitched in the major leagues. I do not want to begin comparing apples and oranges by bringing major league numbers into play for the few guys who do get called up.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It appears your ranking system

does not take into account age and level playing. Is that right?

I am asking because I think ranking McCardell as the 10th best starting pitching prospect is a tad off. He is a 25 year old college pitcher who did well in low A but his first tase of AA and he really struggled.

I am not saying your ranking system is bad or even needs to be tweaked, but its hard for me to wrap my brain around McCardell over Guerra

by clutterheart on Nov 12, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it does take age and level of play into consideration...

…Guerra and McCardell both played roughly the same amount of time in Hi-A and AA. Guerra was 19 when the season started and McCardell was 23, but did turn 24 a few weeks into the season. Guerra gained 8 points more than McCardell because of this (McCardell finished about 2.1 points higher than Guerra). McCardell had a combined ERA of 3.98, Guerra was 4.89. Guerra had 6 more innings (149 to 142.3). McCardell had 12 more strikeouts with 10 less walks. McCardell did give up 4 more home runs but McCardell gave up 24 less walks and hits than Guerra. Thus, if you look at the numbers, McCardell had a significantly better year. The fact that Guerra is nearly 4 years younger may mean that he ends up being better down the road….just not this year.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 4:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, why penalize a guy for pitching well in the big leagues?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 13, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

CMath...

…it has nothing to do with penalizing him. I stopped including major league numbers a couple years ago. Is it right, I don’t know. With only a few that play with the Twins each year out of 175 or so that I rank…is much cleaner to eliminate their numbers, especially considering that in most cases they aren’t very good. Duensing is certainly the exception this year.

by roger13 on Nov 13, 2009 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

10 in five

That is quite remarkable for the starting rotation. Out of the ten listed, and next 10 commented above, could the Twins, perhaps, have 8 move thru the organization in the next five years? If they can keep something like this going, it gives them trade pieces as well as comfortable salayr levels.

Let’s see, the past five seasons the Twins have also had in the rotation: Carl Pavano, R.A Dickey, Livain Hernandez, Ramon Ortiz, Sidney Ponson, Carlos SIlva and homegrown boys Radke, Santana, Lohse and Mays.

But who, in the future, will be that “Ace” #1 innings-eater who can win more than lose?

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Nov 12, 2009 2:31 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Big part of the success

Barring a big free-agent addition, the Twins might spend only about 6.5 million on thier top 5 starters next year. This is the enormous luxury of being able to routinely manufacture major-league-quality pitching, and a key component of the Twins’ past and future contender status. Just think about what is costs to replace these guys on the free agent market.

And again, thanks for these system-review pieces. Always fun.

by Mauer4evauer on Nov 12, 2009 3:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Costs......

Yes, $6.5 million for the starting 5 or 6. $20+ million for the 7-8 in the bullpen. Go figure! The Twins have a pitching staff costing the combined totals of Mauer/Morneau/Cuddyer,

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Nov 12, 2009 3:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Garza

“What is most interesting is that none of these (other than Liriano in 2005) would have been considered as top prospects by those who rank minor league systems and prospects.”

I’ll disagree with that. Garza was USA Todays Minor League Player of the Year 2006. And I wish he was still a Twin. Along with the loss of Bartlett, that trade still stings.

by kendel on Nov 12, 2009 4:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Along with the loss of Bartlett, that trade still stings.

I try not to think about that. Ugh….

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Nov 12, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't go back and check old rankings...

…but I don’t recall BA having him amongst the top ten or twenty prospects in baseball. USA Today isn’t always the best source, such as last year with the Twins. Michael McCardell was their selection as the Twins top player. He had a good year and was a good prospect, but no one else ranked him anywhere near that high. To misunderstand, I believe Garza was an excellent prospect and I may be wrong but I don’t recall that BA and similar sources had him amongst the top in all of baseball.

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 5:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I also wish both were still with the Twins as well. I suspect a certain Twins executive also wishes he hadn’t made that deal. Maybe Delmon will blossom next year and the trade will appear to be a wash!

by roger13 on Nov 12, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Garza = Lohse

The Twins just cut bait with Garza sooner. I don’t think he would have had the success with the Twins he’s had with the Rays. Something about his attitude didn’t work. The discussion has been had before, but I don’t think you change your organization or pitching coach just to try and wring a little more talent out of a guy like Garza.

Still doesn’t make it a great trade. Yet. Delmon is like having stock in a great start-up company. That company could still thrive, at which point his value would be tremendous. Or…bankrupt.

by Han Joelo on Nov 13, 2009 9:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Velocity

Does anyone know the average fastball velocity of our RHP prospects? I read an article which noted that 95% of major league RHP throw at least 89mph. A quick check at fangraphs shows only Zito and Livian as less than 88.5 amongst qualified pitchers. Lefties, submariners and knuckleballers don’t seem to be held to the same standard.

by Jon Kammerer on Nov 13, 2009 11:05 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Roger, I can’t argue with anything you said. You know a lot more about it than me and do an excellent job with your posts. Thank you, I enjoy reading them. That being said, none of the rankings are an exact science. Delmon was BA MLPofY 2005. I just think Garza and Bartlett were not Gardy’s guys. How some guys seem to always be in his doghouse, and others are always in his penhouse (ie LNP) counfounds me. Thats my biggest problem with our “players manager”.

by kendel on Nov 13, 2009 12:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the good laugh kendel...

…when you got around to the LNP comment. Liked that one.

I know there are lots of reasons why Gardy is highly thought of as a manager. I just wish he would be more open to using young players. I honestly do not understand how a team that must play primarily with the prospects they develop can have a manager who will not play most young players because of whatever reason he may have. It just seems like such a contradiction to me.

by roger13 on Nov 13, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or expecting too much........

Always contradictions. Kelly gained complaints that he expected minor league stars to perform better when they hit the majors (Walker, the man of too many positions — and McCarty).

Yet here’s Carlos Gomez, sitting on the bench when he should be doing an Alexi down on the farm.

And then non-studs like Tolbert and Buscher, for example, get playing time.

Not that ANY guy should not get his shot in the majors and have a chance to enjoy playing the game but, yes, it sometimes seems the pressure is too much on rookies to come out of the gate and perform well — ALL THE TIME — especially rookies with a supposed upside, compared to repalcement parts (i.e. Ruiz, Huber, McDonald…the Puntos of the world).

Yes, sometimes it IS hard for a rookie to work out of the pen or sit on the bench, which s what makes abseball the wonderful sport that it is — you can be average (of the best) and still get a job and maybe even qualify for the pension.

I still can’t figure out the whole keeping Gomez in the majors — to learn — bit.

And, final question: Will the Twins search for a 20-year-old rookie starter or 20-year-old rookie shortstop in their near future (shades of this years rookie contenders). They have a couple guys in the system. Will they make an early jump…and should they?

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Nov 13, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think the all the time comments is right on

Gardy always says he likes to play the hot hand. But that works both ways. If you have less than three years of experience, you better stay hot, otherwise you will get an extended stay on the bench, or a demotion. So-called veterans can have a week-long slump and it doesn’t affect their playing time. But one bad game is enough for a rookie to get benched.

The other thing is his tolerance for mistakes. One mistake will earn a young kid extended bench time. Nick Punto makes a rookie mistake every game and he has never been benched for it.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 13, 2009 4:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Or God forbid...

…you drop an easy infield pop up in spring training!

by roger13 on Nov 13, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I had a manager once who tried to get me to make a mistake so she could fire me

She goaded me and argued with me. I knew I was in the right, so I respectfully stuck by my guns. Eventually she became hysterical, flailing her arms around and screaming. I just sat back and tossed my pencil on my notebook, saying, “I give up, you win”. She fired me on the spot for displaying violent tendencies. Apparently a nonchalant pencil toss onto the notebook in front of me was “violent.”

The moral of the story? When a manager wants to get rid of you, he or she will find every excuse to do so. Bartlett was hitting .500 and making all the plays. Gardy was just sitting back and waiting for that one mistake. One mistake is all he needed to justify going with the veteran. He got his wish one sunny day, when Bartlett lost a pop up in the high sky. It took three months, eight Castro errors and numerous misplays for Gardy to call up the superior player.

It has to be the low point of his managerial career. But it wasn’t the first time and it won’t be the last. He’s done it with Cuddyer, Morneau, Kubel, and just about anybody competing with Punto.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 13, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was at that game in spring training...

…turned to my friend who lives down there, said “Bartlett is ……….” Won’t mention the word used, but it was so obvious watching him on the field that he knew it to.

by roger13 on Nov 14, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Devil's Advocate

Is it possible that there really isn’t a contradiction here? Yes, as a team, the Twins have to build from within, and that means more rookies on the 25-man roster than other teams. But in general, the organization approach to moving players through the system (glacial), combined with Gardy’s clear preference for veterans in the majors, gives us groups of minor leaguers who learn to win and are more polished when they reach the big leagues.

Once a rookie is playing in the majors, defense is the key for Gardy. As long as he has a choice (i.e., Delmon doesn’t count, was out of options and couldn’t be sent down), if a guy plays defense he’ll have a shot. Denard Span? Excellent defense in RF, also great production from the leadoff spot. Carlos Gomez? Stayed up the last two years because his CF defense was a weapon. Gardy rightfully kept Gomez up the second half of last season because he had value as a defensive replacement. I’d bet that by the time the trade deadline passed, we had pretty much decided to trade Gomez, so sending him down for a month of learning to hit didn’t make a lot of sense.

by Adam Peterson on Nov 14, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That works for your middling contributors

But stars should come up and play everyday rather than accumulating service time on the bench. I can see benching Casilla or Buscher for bad defense. But why make Morneau wait while the team struggles through a prolonged Dougie Baseball slump? Why make Cuddyer wait so you can give Dustin Mohr at bats? Why make Kubel ride the pine in favor of Ruben Sierra or Rondell White? Those are the cases where Gardy doesn’t seem to get it. The only young player who was given a job was Mauer, and that was a rather obvious choice.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 14, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Morneau

I agree that Gardy tends to wait too long to put in the rookie when a veteran slumps. In the case of Morneau, was he sitting on the bench accumulating service time, or was he in AAA waiting for the call? I remember he was in AAA, which means no service time…

With Kubel, there was the injury and whether he would come back, as well as major struggles against LHP. That’s why Rondell was signed, RH DH bat in a semi-platoon with Kubel. I would rather have given Kubel the ABs against LHP, let him figure it out, but I’m not Gardy.

by Adam Peterson on Nov 15, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Morneau spent a good deal of time on the bench before they traded Mientkievizc

As for Kubel, there were at least 20 games where White played left and Sierra DHed and Kubel sat on the bench. Niether White nor Sierra did much at all in those 20 games.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Nov 15, 2009 3:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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