Starting Pitchers: Damaged Goods Available
The Twins now have approximately $62 million committed to eight players who are under contract for 2010, and with J.J. Hardy's estimated arbitration salary likely somewhere around $6 million Minnesota will have approximately $17 million to shell out to their arb-eligible players. Even with a payroll which would open the year at over $80 million for the first time in frachise history the organization is still in a position to add some payroll. How much? Probably not too much. But with third base, second base and two rotation spots up for grabs there's no doubt the front office will continue on their quest to improve the team.
Minnesota has picked up a bit of a stigma as an organization that likes to rely on bargain-bin veterans to flesh out their roster, and there hasn't been a shortage of that philosophy applied to the starting rotation over the last few years. Do your ears still flush red when you think of Ramon Ortiz and Sidney Ponson? Or maybe Livan Hernandez still has you a bit baffled? Those moves, at the time, were railroaded for the quality of the player rather than the organization's decision to bring in veteran help, although there was also a strong belief that a rotation centered around Johan Santana, Francisco Liriano and Scott Baker would be just fine.
The front office agreed with us last winter, and they stayed fully in-house when constructing their rotation.
Things can change a lot in the span of a year. An area of strength going coming out of 2008 is a bit of a weakness, or at the very least not nearly as deep as we thought it would be, coming out of 2009. For a team that will always look to get the most value for their dollar, if they do choose to supplement the rotation in the free agent market, their highest reward scenarios might center around these guys. Read all about them after the break.
26 starts in 2009 and 25 starts in 2008--not bad. Then there were the 13 starts in '06 and '07 combined, with 19 starts made in '05. In fact, in Harden's six-plus star-crossed seasons in the majors he has had exactly one full season: 2004.
A couple of back injuries, a strained left oblique and a rap sheet full of right-arm issues, Harden's inability to keep himself on the mound isn't exactly a secret. Which is why he's even on this list. Anyone who can strike out more than a man per inning while allowing less than a hit per inning, with that kind of fastball and that kind of stuff, is a guy who's makeup has "Ace" dripping out of every pore.
This past season Harden missed 19 games in May and June due to issues with his back, before coming back and eventually being shut down at the end of September because of his pitching arm. Again.
Obviously he's a risk, but that's why I wanted to talk about these guys. The oblique strains don't bother me--it's the problems (plural) that Harden has had with his rotator cuff and his UCL. His mechanics aren't exactly smooth and without constant training to strengthen and stabalize his cuff I'm worried he could have to resort to Tommy John surgery at any time. But I'm not a doctor.
Harden is likely to garner a lot of guarded interest this off-season, and in spite of his injuries and high pitch count innings could still receive multi-year offers that would be worth double-digit millions easy. Naturally I'm not opposed to the Twins chasing him and signing him to a deal as long as it's done right. While the Twins may not be able to guarantee more money than most of the other clubs out there, offering him a low base with a number of achieveable incentives for games started and innings pitched could make a deal at least tempting.
My offer: Two years with team option for year a third. 2010: $4 million base ($500K for 12, 17, 22, 27 and 32 starts; $500 K for 100, 125, 150, 175, 200 innings pitched; $9 million possible; $1 million buyout option if less than 100 innings pitched). 2011: $6 million base, same incentives. 2012: $10 million base, same incentives, $1 million buyout.
Sheets didn't pitch at all in 2009, and at two years older than Harden would be 32 in 2010. His rap sheet of injuries is even more varied than the Cubs ace, with long stretches of time missed for back injuries, finger injuries and, of course, right arm injuries. This last time around he's had flexor tendon surgery and, if you listen to his agent, would be ready for spring training.
He doesn't strike out quite as many guys as Harden but he still allows less than a hit per inning, has better control and is far more efficient with his pitches. Prior to this last surgery anyway. Like Harden his fastball is mid to upper-90's, and his breaking balls can break your knees. Prior to this last surgery anyway.
Sheets made 31 starts and pitched 198 innings in 2008 before missing all of '09, but from '05 to '07 he wasn't pitching full years either. From the ages of 23 to 25 though, which may be where some of these problems began for a guy who was at the time a younger pitcher, Sheets made 102 starts and threw more than 670 innings. You could argue he was over-worked, although by the time a guy hits his mid-20's he should be able to handle a full load. I tend to lean away from the over-worked arguement.
Where I see Harden landing with a more high-profile team who is willing to take a chance on him and spend a little more ching, Sheets is the option who already looks like he'll appeal to everybody. Second-tier teams (like the Twins) who still have a little wiggle room might run straight for the former Brewer to avoid getting drawn into a process with Harden.
My offer: One year with a team option for a second. 2010: $3 million base ($500 K for 11, 22 and 33 starts; $500 K for 100, 125, 150, 175 and 200 innings; $7 million possible). 2011: $5 million base, same incentives, $500K buyout.
Bedard had arthroscopic surgery on his left shoulder back in August, repairing what had been a spot of general disrepair. A torn labrum was the main issue, but the area apparently needed a good clearing. Apparently he'll be ready for the beginning of the season, but it's the second time in as many years where he made just 15 starts.
His stuff, just like the stuff of Harden and Sheets, qualifies him as an ace. He can be a dominant strikeout pitcher at times, although a little streaky even when healthy and not as efficient with his pitches as Sheets. What had been very low fly-ball numbers increased slightly in Seattle, but his plus fastball and plus breaking ball continued to be his best pitches and were seemingly unaffected.
The biggest issues with the former Mariner and Oriole enigma are his consistency and, just like the other two guys on this list, his inability to stay healthy for a whole season. His control tends to stray at times as well.
My offer: Identical to Sheets' offer.
Conclusions
Clearly there are more guys on the market than these three who could qualify as damaged goods. Mark Prior is attempting a comeback, Bartolo Colon is still floating (or sinking) around out there somewhere and even a guy like Noah Lowry has some appeal. But these three guys are the creme of the crop, because they all have the ability to be that elusive Ace pitcher.
Is there a safer option between the three? Which guy would you prefer, if any?
0 recs |
46 comments
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Comments
I picked Sheets
only because I think he’ll come cheaper.
I’ll still contend, though, that if we sign only one more player, it should be an infielder. If we sign two… I could go either way. Could we afford Sheets + Crede + a second basemen (Lopez/Polanco)? I could go for Sheets + Glaus + a cheaper 2b, like Adam Kennedy or Jamey Carroll. we might be able to afford all 3, with incentive-laden contracts for the first two. I would rather have all 3 of them for 10 mil for one year, then get Beltre for the same price, and have the added risk of signing a 3 year contract or so.
The thing that we should NOT do, is spend our money on a mediocre pitcher like Washburn. Washburn would add depth, but my projections for both Duensing and Liriano are better than for Washburn. It would be better for a team with viable replacements to go with the riskier player, because 15 starts of Sheets + 15 starts of Liriano should be significantly better than 30 starts for Washburn. Besides Liriano, guys like Swarzak and Manship might be making a case to get a second try in the rotation when Sheets inevitibly goes down. Depth is always nice, but I think the rotation of Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing, and Liriano is actually about average, and replacing Duensing or Liriano with Perkins or Swarzak wouldn’t hurt that much. The infield has less exciting replacement players – Harris and Tolbert are nothing more than replacement level.
Again, I think my dream (I tend to dream more realistically than most, except for the time I stole Heidi Klum away from Seal) offseason after this point would be signing Sheets to a 3 mil guaranteed, 7 mil with incentives contract, Glaus to a similar contract, and Adam Kennedy for about 1 mil. Punto would then become among the best utility players in the league, Glaus could start 100 games at 3b and 30 at DH against lefties, and a rotation of Sheets, Baker, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing, with Liriano replacing Sheets when he gets hurt would be solidly above average. All of this is assuming, of course, that Glaus’ arm still works after surgery. His agent, at least, thinks he can start every day at third.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 15, 2009 9:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow, sorry for the length/disorganization/redunancy of that post.
Feel free to skip the first two paragraphs and/or the whole thing.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 15, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
After looking a little closer at the stats
Jamey Carroll would probably be my choice for a super cheap 2b over Kennedy. Kennedy had a very good year last year with the bat, but it looks to be an outlier and he isn’t getting any younger. Still a good pickup if he can take at bats away from casilla and tolbert.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 15, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
which of these pitchers would I like to see on our DL all next year?
I don’t know, that’s a toughie
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Nov 16, 2009 12:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Which Oft Injured Pitcher
Wants to come pitch outdoors in Minnesota? Am I making too big a deal out of that? I mean, if the Rangers and Twins offered Sheets an identical contract, would it be a factor?
At any rate, it would be nice to have a lefty ace. Seems to be in vogue. After watching playoff baseball, I’ve decided the Twins need a topflight ace more than anything. Although its hard to imagine any of these three guys still around to make starts on three days rest in November.
by Han Joelo on Nov 16, 2009 10:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Most pitchers would rather pitch in two months of cold than three months of insane heat
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 16, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Texas isn't a good example
but there are plenty of places I’d rather pitch than Minnesota, assuming I have no ties here.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 16, 2009 11:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For Han Joelo
I have to apologize—while I’m at work my reply button doesn’t seem to want to get along with me.
I think that A: the Twins are a better team than the Rangers, B: that the new stadium, cost of living and Minnesota in summer have to be some sort of a draw and C: I do think people make too much of the weather in MN in April and October…Boston, New York, Chicago, Philadelphia…nobody is turning down a contract because it’s too cold.
by Jesse on Nov 16, 2009 10:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Someone like Sheets may consider it
I don’t know enough about injuries to know if cold really could contribute, but even if it doesn’t, he may THINK it does and want to go somewhere warmer.
by lookatthosetwins on Nov 16, 2009 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
minnesota summer
is good. but when comparing to texas, take 10% off the top of any mn. offer compared to tex due to state taxes. Cost of living would be higher in TC than Dal-FW.
by SoDak9er on Nov 16, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Injury Prone......
Can the Twins afford to take a gamble on a pitcher who might not last the season? Think so, as there is depth (Baker, Blackburn, Slowey, Liriano, Densing, Swarzak, Perkins, Boof, more?). If you can get half-a-season of strong pitching, some leadership…go for any of the above. If they pitch too good, you have tradebait. Hey, sign two injured commodities, put Boff or Perk in the bullpen, and have a great AAAA rotation (who still has options — Duensing? Liriano? Perkins?).
Same with infield. The Twins could gamble, again, with a Crede because they MIGHT have a league-average+ backup in Valencia, who should probably start at AAA. It would be better if the Twins also added a bonifide 2nd baseman…unless the Casilla-dream is still alive and…possible.
The Twins mindset for the infield is that Tolbert, Punto, Hughes, Tolleson, Harris and any others are just reserve guys. Plug in while someone else is on the plane from the minors to get a fulltime shot. Please, please, please, Twins Management, believe that Punto is nothing but the best reserve infielder you could possibly have…nothing more, nothing less. IF you need to start him, you can. IF you need him to do a run of games at 2nd, SS, 3B…do so…but don’t think permanent. Yes, you have millions tied up inthe guy, but it doesn’t make him a #2 hitter, or even the perfect #9 hitter. Please get better overall in the infield. If you gamble, do it on Crede.
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
by rosterman on Nov 16, 2009 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yup
I agree totally. If there’s no significant dropoff between your number 3 and your number 8 — and really, there’s not that much difference between your number 1 and 8 pitchers, at least not as much as there should be — what’s the point of bringing in a veteran who’s just one more of the same type of pitcher? This is the year for a high risk, high reward signing. If you’ve got a couple studs like Santana and 2006 Liriano, sure, fill out the rotation with average vets. But they need someone with a chance to put them over the top in the playoffs really badly. If they can’t afford a true ace, they should at least pick someone with ace potential, knowing they have a decent fallback in Duensing, Liriano or Swarzak. Would you get excited about going to the park to see Jarrod Washburn? I’d rather see one of these three flame out than see WAshburn give up five runs an outing.
by by jiminy on Nov 17, 2009 9:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of those three offers
I would go for Harden in a heartbeat. Sure, he’s a risk, but he’s got the highest upside of the three, IMO. I don’t see Bedard bouncing back, he appears to be a 150 IP best case guy, and there’s a real low chance of that. Sheets is a complete wild card, tough to come back and be productive after taking the whole year off. With Harden there’s a good chance of 25+ starts.
Plus, if we sign Harden for $4M+incentives, we should have some flexibility to sign another infielder if we wish. Problem is, I don’t see $4M+ getting it done for Harden.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 16, 2009 8:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
At those figures, Harden would be a steal.
I have no idea what he’s worth on the open market, but I would jump for joy if we could actually land him for that price.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 16, 2009 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, a steal
I’m guessing Harden will probably sign for around $8M AAV, 2 years plus an option.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bedard, obviously
You don’t really need any statistics. He’s the guy who has pitched in the AL, rather than the guy who is crossing over from NL to AL. He’s got a breaking pitch. And he’s a lefty.
He’s the best talent, no question. So if that’s what we’re basing this on, he’s your pick.
Amused observer of the old ladies backyard laundry gab.
by Johnny Safron on Nov 16, 2009 10:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
AL/NL
Harden spent 5.5 years in the AL and 1.5 in the NL, and he was successful (when he was healthy) in the AL before being traded to the Cubs. I don’t see how having to cross leagues is any sort of negative for him, unless you think the AL has changed markedly since mid-2008.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Nov 17, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Harden's older...
…and the NL is not getting any better. It’s a defensive league. Carlos Gomez will do well there, offensively and defensively. I see a guy who isn’t health and who had an ERA and WHIP higher than his norm. He’s always missed a lot of turns. And someone still is going to pay him a ton of money. I would prefer that be someone besides Minnesota.
Amused observer of the old ladies backyard laundry gab.
by Johnny Safron on Nov 18, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
scouting the opposition
After mulling the Twins options here, I clicked on the link at right to see who the Yankees are thinking about. While we’re weighing whether the merits of going after an injured pitcher or placido polanco, they’re looking at pitchers like Halliday, Lackey, Zambrano, and Webb. Doesn’t look like next year’s gap will be any smaller. And the year after that, their rotation of CC, Burnett, and one of those guys might be pitching to Joe Mauer. Bleh.
Something’s gotta change.
by by jiminy on Nov 17, 2009 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Shut up with the NY hearts Mauer stuff
I declare a moratorium on comments like this:
And the year after that, their rotation of CC, Burnett, and one of those guys might be pitching to Joe Mauer. Bleh.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 17, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about Pedro?
He was able to fool the Yankees for a few innings and the NL for a few months. I think Pedro Martinez could fool the AL Central for a while next year. He’s one helluva veteran presence, probably cheap, won’t be intimidated by anything.
by DJL44 on Nov 17, 2009 11:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pedro
is a good option and I would not mind seeing him in a Twins uni. Pedro pitched for BoSox several years ago, winning several Cy Youngs. What would it take to get him? This is a decent option and one that should be considered. If we could sign him to a $2 million + incentives package, I would not mind at all.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
$2 million seems awfully low
He got $1 million plus incentives from the Phillies this year, and he wasn’t signed until over halfway through the year. Combine the factors that he’ll be signing for a full season and that he showed this year that he can still effectively get out major league batters, and I’d expect him to more than double his asking price – something like $4M plus incentives seems more realistic, although that’s basically a guess, too.
Also, if we’re looking for a dominant ace, I’m not sure Pedro’s it. I don’t know that I expect him to be all that much (if any) better than Scott Baker next year. Don’t get me wrong, he’d still be an upgrade to the rotation, but he’s no longer the kind of guy who would give the Twins the better pitcher in Game 1 of every playoff series.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Nov 17, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not even close to Baker
There’s no way Pedro would be anywhere near as valuable as Baker next year. The only reason we’d sign him is for the experience, let the young guys learn from him.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Pedro just doesn’t have the stuff any more. He’s one of those crafty veteran/pitchability guys like a late-career Greg Maddux that are able to get by in the NL but would likely get clobbered in the AL. I don’t see how he would be any better than any of our numerous #4/5 in-house options. I guess he’s more potential than Jarrod Washburn, though.
by Mike I on Nov 17, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So
basically, we have $17 million for next year to spend on arbitration and free agents. Signing one of these pitchers (Harden, Bedard, Sheets) and/or Pedro Martinez will take about $5 million base salary lets say. That leaves about $10 million to go out and get a good 2B (thinking Hudson here) and re-sign Joe Crede.
I hope you read this Billy Smith!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 11:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
you apparently aren't interested in re-signing Mauer?
by montanatwinsfan on Nov 17, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
an extension
would start in 2011. The Twins have no interest in tearing up Mauer’s 2010 contract. If they do sign him to an extension, it will start in 2011, not 2010.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"The Twins have no interest in tearing up Mauer's 2010 contract."
You keep saying this but I haven’t read it anywhere. A vast majority of the time, in this situation, the last year of the contract is torn up.
by Jesse on Nov 17, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have
talked about this with Nick (at Nick’s blog) and both he and I believe that the Twins will just put an extension on Mauer’s existing contract. This benefits both Mauer and the Twins (especially the Twins) since it frees up payroll allowing the Twins to obtain Hudson, Lopez, Sheets, Harden, etc…
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm so glad that you know the answer.
puts me at ease that you and Nick 'have talked'
by montanatwinsfan on Nov 17, 2009 2:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
shut up
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I get that,
and it does make sense. I would just be surprised if it happens. Mauer won’t force the Twins to pay him an average of $25 million a year, but he isn’t responsible for bending over backward for the franchise, either. I still have to believe the odds are against Mauer playing under his current 2010 contract, at least until I hear something more than speculation that says he will. It’s certainly nothing against your logic, or Nick’s.
by Jesse on Nov 17, 2009 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But does it benefit the Twins?
Besides the fact that, from Mauer’s perspective, money now is better than money in the future, the Twins have some payroll flexibility this year before a ton of guys come up for arbitration or contract raises in the next two years. Unless you’re expecting the new stadium’s revenue boost to increase quite a bit next year as well, I don’t see how waiting a year to kick in the extension helps the team all that much financially.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
by BeefMaster on Nov 17, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure that's the best option for the Twins
You’d have to assume Mauer would sign for the same overall contract value, whether or not we tear up next year. Outside of Mauer, our payroll demands are only going to increase in 2011 and beyond, so I’d rather pay Mauer an extra $8M next year than down the road. Chances are, we’ll have a bigger revenue bump in the first year of the new stadium, so it may make sense to go a little higher next year to ease things down the road.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where's the arbitration?
Only $2M for arbitration in your scenario? Seems low to me.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just wait it out
Whichever guy is left without a team at the end is going to be the best bargain. There’s no prize for being the first to bite on a reclamation project.
by DJL44 on Nov 17, 2009 1:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That's a good stance.
I like it. A lot of this is going to depend on how aggressive teams are, because this year looks like it could turn into a buyer’s market. As soon as one of these guys sign I wouldn’t be surprised to see the next two snatched up pretty quickly, and depending on which order they go in the last guy to sign could get the biggest contract.
If the Twins do want one of these guys they are going to have to get involved early, if only to keep the pulse of the market and the situation.
by Jesse on Nov 17, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about
Joel Pineiro? I know he isnt ace material but would look pretty nice at #3. With the infield defense potentially being: Morneau, Punto, Hardy, Crede…I see no reason not to look at him. Pineiro led the majors with a 60.5% groundball rate and with a new gold glove infield at the disposal of the Twins, I see no reason not to look at him and to have at least one groundball consistent pitcher on the staff.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Nov 17, 2009 2:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I saw MLB Trade Rumors
discussing him today and thought the exact same thing. I’d be happy picking up Pineiro.
by Jesse on Nov 17, 2009 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pineiro would be a good option
The question is, how much of his success was due to the NL and Dave Duncan’s magic?
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't mind Pineiro either...
but my choice would be Sheets. Harden’s declining stuff really worries me, especially with a shift to the AL. And I happen to agree with Keith Law that the year off probably did Sheets a lot of good. He’d be my top choice.
I bet he’d go for something around $6-7 M with incentives to push it to $10-11 M. And I’d do that if I were the Twins.
by DJSkillz on Nov 17, 2009 9:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Harden's stuff is declining?
Really? 171 strikeouts in 141 innings tells me his stuff is just fine. Last year’s problems were due to an inflated HR/FB rate of 15.1%, a sharp increase over his unusually low 6.5% rate the year before. I think his problem was Wrigley Field and a bit of gopher-itis.
by Adam Peterson on Nov 18, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Wrigley’s only slightly better than Minute Maid park in that department. BTW, he also pitched there a few times.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Nov 19, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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