White Sox continue their trend of overpaying for mediocrity
by DJL44 on Dec 15, 2009 2:07 PM EST
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Let's look at the offseason moves of the closest division rival, the White Sox.
Exercise options on Freddy Garcia and Matt Thornton ($3-5M)
Cut DeWayne Wise
Give Mark Kotsay $1.5M to spit seeds on the bench
Acquire Mark Teahen for Chris Getz and Josh Fields and give him a $14M 3 year deal to be a below average 3B
Sign older than dirt Omar Vizquel and on his last leg Andruw Jones to join Kotsay on the bench.
Give $3M to JJ Putz coming off injury, dump DJ Carrasco
Send 2 minor league pitchers for the opportunity to pay Juan Pierre $9M for the next 2 seasons so he can play a little bit better than DeWayne Wise.
To me it looks like the White Sox got older, more injury prone and more expensive with no net improvement. I think their plan is to win with pitching and memories of the 90s.
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+1
The Teahan deal is the biggest head scratcher. He’s a thoroughly mediocre hitter and a poor defender at two positions. He must play really well against the Sox or something.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
yeah I know right?
Mark Teahan against the Twins has been awful I guess.
Billy Butler on the other hand, that chubby kid can rake!
Rene Tosoni is good.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Dec 15, 2009 5:33 PM EST up reply actions
Only good news for us.
Let them continue to acquire random and overpaid players, we’ll just happily continue to beat them next year.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -Earl Weaver
bench
Well their bench ain’t too bad provided Omar can still play next season.
Doofenschmirtz Evil, INC.
Phineas and Ferb
How so
A good bench has players that do something better than your starters. I can’t think of anything Kotsay or Andruw do better than a starting player. They’re decent backups if someone gets hurt, though it’s more likely this bench is injured than the starters. You stash guys like this in AAA or keep one as a pinch hitter. I’m not sure why you want to pay a lot for below average players. That’s $35M they’ve tied up in below average players.
Considering the Twins' bench
currently seems to consist of something like Morales, Pridie, Casilla, and Tolbert (or Harris, I guess)…let me know when you figure out what any of those guys do better than any starters.
by DK on Dec 15, 2009 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
The difference is that our bench is "free" - its just organizational filler
I never understood paying premium for bench players. People envision these extra-inning playoff scenarios when they talk about a “good bench” but the starters play most of the time.
Overpaying for mediocrity would be helpful if there was a couple of black holes they needed filled in an otherwise solid nucleus, but this is a below .500 Sox team.
Okay
Tolbert can catch the ball at multiple positions in the infield (unlike Harris or Cabrera). Casilla has plus speed. Morales is a damned good hitter for a catcher and can hit righthanded, too bad our starter is the best hitter in the AL. Pridie, ummmmm.
Our bench costs less than Mark Kotsay.
Yeah, and I don't think they're done filling out the bench
I wouldn’t be surprised to see signings of Quinlan and Church.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I'd like Church
not so much on Quinlan… though I’d note above that Pridie is a defensive sub. He’d be a better defender than either Young, Cuddyer, or Kubel and can give Span the occasional day off. He has value. It’s just limited.
by diehardtwinsfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
My primary desires for the bench
are a real backup CF and someone who, if Delmon continues to perform far below replacement level, could take over in the OF or at DH (moving Kubel to LF/RF). IMO, Ryan Church fills both of those needs, at relatively low cost.
by Adam Peterson on Dec 16, 2009 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
Church
Won’t he sign with a team that has an open outfield spot? How can he reestablish his value if he’s sitting on the bench? He’s a good fit for the Twins, but the Twins are a bad fit for him.
I actually think Pridie will be OK. He has excellent defensive scouting reports and excellent totalzone numbers. As a bench player you can leverage his strengths. He can spot Delmon against RHP and he’d be an excellent late inning defensive replacement. CHONE projects Pridie as -16 batting runs, +7 defensive runs in CF.
by Jon Kammerer on Dec 16, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not high on Quinlan either
But the Twins have expressed interest.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
You sound like Shooter
“Don’t be surprised to see the Twins sign every player who has ever been connected to the state of Minnesota in some way.”
Though as far as I know that doesn’t apply to Church.
by DK on Dec 16, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
I only say that because LEN 3 has quoted a Twins source saying it
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Pee-Air
Wow – he actually had an OPS+ over 100 last year (105). I guess I don’t follow the NL enough to have realized that he may actually be decent, other than his noodle arm.
Still, fun to point out that they’re getting a guy who led the NL in caught stealing five of the last nine years and is also a 2-time leader in total outs made.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Mauer
Mauer’s right arm is salivating at the idea of Juan Pierre running towards second base…
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
Arms can salivate?
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Dec 15, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions
Mauer never sweats
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yeah I didn't realize they had cut him
for a cheap contract, he has got to be better than Pridie.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
i believe he signed a minor league deal with Philadelphia
Vikings 4 the superbowl
I had to Front Page this,
because it’s painfully true. I’ll never accuse Kenny Williams of sitting on his ass, but some of these moves are just bizarre to me. Okay, take a chance on Jones or Vizquel, fine, but all of these moves add up to one massive question mark. Not that I mind.
That Kenny Williams
what a guy. Keep it up, K-Dub.
/O'keefe'd
by Smokin Herb Grigsby on Dec 15, 2009 3:42 PM EST reply actions
Pride
I dont think pride will ever be our 4th outfielder i think Rene Tosoni will more than likely be the 4th outfielder. He was the future all-stars game mvp last year and i think they want to give him a try over pride
I'm still not thrilled that they have Peavy.
All the same, I like our chances to repeat as AL Central Champions.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Dec 15, 2009 5:40 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Peavy is pretty overrated. He's cerainly a good pitcher, but after adjusting for league and park, he's a #2 at best.
I’d take a 50-50 bet that Slowey has a better ERA at years end.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 15, 2009 7:20 PM EST up reply actions
No, he's a #1
He’s a legit ace, a 2 time All-Star with a CYA. Buehrle’s an ace also. Neither is in the top 10 but there are 30 number one starters.
Yes, he's a 2 time all star and a cy young winner,
but he pitched in petco, and he pitched in the NL. He projects to be about a 3.90 FIP starter. Like I said, I’d take even money that Slowey ends up with the better FIP or ERA at the end of the year.
As far as there being 30 number one starters, I see what you mean. But the thirtiest best pitcher in the league is probably not what people mean when they say “number one” and is definitely not what they mean when they say “ace.”
Anyway, like I said, Peavy projects to be about 3.90 FIP, and probably worse ERA. Buerhle projects to be about 4.3. Buerhle does seem to be one of those guys who outpitches his FIP, so you could put him at about 4.1.
Last year, there were 36 qualified pitchers who had a better than 3.90 FIP. There were 37 who had a better than 3.90 ERA.
As far as Buerhle goes, there were 52 pitchers with a better than 4.30 FIP. There were 53 pitcers with a better than 4.1 ERA.
I don’t think Peavy is an ace by any definition of the word, but he is at least arguable. Buerhle has had a very good career, but is absolutely not an ace.
The main reason I brought this up in the first place is all of the comments I hear complaining of our lack of “true ace.” We wouldn’t be hearing these complaints if we had Peavy/Buerhle 1-2, but I Baker and Slowey are just as good as those guys.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 12:40 AM EST up reply actions
Consistency
the thirtiest best pitcher in the league is probably not what people mean when they say "number one"
Then people should speak more clearly. There are 30 #1 pitchers in baseball. If you can pitch below a 4.00 ERA (~120ERA+) and more than 200 IP consistently year to year you are an ace pitcher in the Jack Morris sense of the word ace. There’s one guy on the free agent market as good as Peavy – John Lackey – and he’s getting paid like an ace.
Buehrle has put up a sub 4.00 ERA and >200 innings 4 of the last 5 years. One of the reasons he outpitches his FIP is his outstanding fielding – which definitely counts toward his run prevention contribution.
Danks and Floyd are pretty good too. The White Sox strengths are starting pitching and their middle infield which are pretty good strengths to have. Their bullpen should be fine. I’m just thrilled they’re spending so much attention to their bench when they could be doing something like signing Matt Holliday to play LF.
I think the main reason why people don't think of the thirtiest best pitcher in baseball as a #1
is that if the thirtiest best pitcher in baseball is your number one, you probably have the worst rotation in baseball. It is perfectly reasonable to only call someone a true number one starter if he’s the number one starter on a good staff, or at least not a horrible staff. The truth is, I tend to agree with you that people tend to put the top 5 or 10 pitchers in the #1 category and noone else is good enough, but that’s the way the term is most commonly used, and it isn’t that unreasonable to be used that way.
Anyway, it’s all semantics, and I probably wouldn’t even be arguing about this if I got any sleep last night. Anyway, if you want to call Peavy an “ace” or a “#1” that’s perfectly fine. I’m just saying that he probably won’t be one of the best 30 pitchers in the league this year, and if you call him one, then a guy like Scott Baker is one too. Again, that’s fine if you want to define it that way, it’s just most people don’t.
Any way you define it, Buerhle is not an ace. He is consistent, but he is consistently the 40th or 50th best pitcher in the league. That’s very valuable, and I’d take a good, durable pitcher over an injury prone “ace” like Harden any day, but I still don’t see how you can call him an ace.
Anyway, it’s all semantics and largely irrelevant. I agree with you about everything else. The sox pitching will be a strength this year, although I see ours being as good or better, with a lot more depth in the rotation. Beckham looks like s stud, Ramirez should bounce back and be a good, but not great SS. Other than that, it’s all pretty iffy.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions
By what measure is Buehrle a #2?
Pitcher VORP rankings – Buehrle’s ranking
2002 – #10
2003 – 49
2004 – 13
2005 – 9
2006 – 150
2007 – 19 (Peavy #1 in baseball, then he got hurt)
2008 – 36
2009 – 23
5 years out of 8 he’s been in the top 30, 2 other years in the top 50. If he’s a #2, he’s the best #2 in baseball. He’s been in the 20-30 range for the past 3 seasons.
The strength of a rotation is in guys #2-4. Look at last year’s Blue Jays or Royals. Are you saying Halladay and Greinke aren’t aces because their team’s rotations were terrible?
Part of the problem with perception here is All-Star games select too many relievers and the CYA only has 3 ballot slots. That leads to about 10 All-Star pitchers and 8 pitchers getting CYA votes.
I think Baker could be an ace pitcher, it’s all about consistency but he has potential.
Easy to lookup
And I refuse to use FIP to measure past events. It’s good for predictive value but a garbage stat for what has already happened. I suppose I could lookup WAR from one of the various calculators but that’s not as easy to find.
Post it then
If WAR is so darned easy to find in year-by-year rankings then I’d love to see a link so I can repeat the analysis. I’m glad you agree with me that FIP doesn’t matter for determining Buehrle’s past value.
whew
That took me 10 seconds. I’m wiped
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=al&qual=y&type=6&season=2009&month=0
Fangraphs uses FIP
FIP is baloney for measuring value. They also don’t give a numeric ordering of results which is irritating.
FIP for value
I’m curious: Why do you think that FIP is useless for measuring value? Is Kevin Millwood’s 2009 first half more valuable because of his goofy-low BABIP and strand%? So lucky players are more valuable?
formerly known in these parts as adamb
I'm assuming that he's talking about the fact that it doesn't factor in innings pitched
other than that, yeah, I have no idea why he’d like VORP over FIP.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 4:43 PM EST up reply actions
Pitchers are more than their FIP
FIP is meant as a predictor of performance in a neutral context, not a measure of what happened in a given season. If you have Ozzie Smith at SS, throwing sinkerballs is good strategy even though it doesn’t help FIP. FIP also doesn’t include pitcher defense, which is a big detriment to Buehrle. Mark Buehrle is outstanding at picking off runners, holding runners (increases DP%), and fielding groundballs. Some pitchers are terrible at fielding and deserve to be docked for it. A WAR calculation that puts pitcher fielding back in after a FIP would be okay but still not the whole picture.
“Goofy-low BABIP” can mean lots of things – a pitcher’s slider was working because arm fatigue hadn’t set in yet, the pitcher is new to the batter, the fastball was two ticks faster, etc. This is a game of adjustments, which is why K% goes down over time.
A big pet peeve of mine is attributing anything that doesn’t fit the model to “luck”.
to the fanposts!
I think there’s a certain amount of blindness in the defenses of advanced metrics like FIP, sure. I also think you’re being a little unfair by implying that “anything that doesn’t fit the model” is attributed to luck. The idea is that outcomes that show little correlation over time — skills that aren’t demonstrably repeatable — are more or less luck.
The perfect example from last year is Millwood’s first half versus Pineiro’s reincarnation. Millwood wasn’t showing any new skills. His peripherals were right at career norms, his pitches profiled about the same. His BABIP and strand% — two numbers that are almost never under a pitcher’s control (there are exceptions, for sure) — were extremely abnormal relative to things like his K/9, BB/9, and HR/FB. He regressed like a mother in the second half of the season. I challenge you to show me what Millwood was doing in the first half that caused him to outperform his FIP.
Pineiro, OTOH, substantially changed the way he pitches last year. He developed a two-seamer that opposing hitters beat into the ground at fantastic rates and rarely hit out of the park. his strand% was low, yes — but because of other observable phenomena like higher DP%, very low HR/FB, and low BB/9. Consequently, he had a lower FIP to go with his lower conventional stats.
Pitcher defense, like all defense, is very hard to accurately quantify at the moment. I’ll give you that Buehrle’s value is probably understated because of solid execution of little things (holding runners) and good defense.
To the larger question, of using stats as a record of what happened as opposed to a tool to evaluate performances, I don’t really know how to respond. I mean, if you want to look at it that way, sure, advanced metrics don’t do much to tell you what happened that traditional stats don’t. The point of statistical analysis, for me, is to gain new insight into how to win baseball games. Generally speaking, I don’t see a lot of point in saying that e.g. Kevin Millwood had a surprisingly effective first half. That’s obvious. The whys and wherefores are what get me to read and post on blogs like this.
formerly known in these parts as adamb
There are very few players who maintain a significant ERA-FIP split for their careers
and the one’s that do most likely had better than average defense behind them for their careers. Tom Glavine was one of those guys. Lefty, good fielder, good at picking off runners. Buerhle is the same kind of guy.
There are exceptions to the rule, but FIP is absolutely a better measure of PERFORMANCE than ERA. It does ignore certain things, and that makes it flawed, but it much better than including things like defense and luck.
No, we can’t just assume that everything that doesn’t fit into our model is luck, but we also can’t assume that everything that goes into ERA is pitcher skill. When it comes down to it, the former ends up assuming less than the latter, and is a better measure of performance.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
I don't care if it is luck or skill
The events happened, the pitcher gets (some) credit for it. Batters don’t get downgraded in WAR metrics by an abnormally high BABIP. Why should pitchers get regressed to the mean and not hitters?
I disagree that FIP is a better measure of performance, it is probably a better measure of skill. Still, don’t tell me John Tudor wasn’t valuable to his team in the mid 80s because his FIP wasn’t as great as his results. Someone has to throw the ball to induce the grounders to Ozzie.
WAR/BABIP
Hitters don’t get knocked for it because it’s much more of a repeatable skill for hitters than it is for pitchers.
FIP is absolutely a measure of performance. Are you saying it’s a worse one than ERA or whatever? I don’t get your argument.
John Tudor ERA and FIP for STL:
1985: 1.93; 2.71
1986: 2.92; 3.84
1987: 3.84; 4.27
For his career, his ERA was typically a half-run to a run under his FIP. Part of that was pitching in front of good defenses, absolutely. Probably part of it is that FIP doesn’t account for some skill of Tudor’s that is unusual or even unique to him. I’m still of the opinion that it’s a much better measure than ERA, since you’ve presented no evidence to change my mind.
formerly known in these parts as adamb
Anyone would have been helped out by great defense
That’s the whole point. Tudor shouldn’t get credit for what Ozzie all ready gets credit for. Even the heaviest fly ball pitchers are helped out greatly by a defender like Ozzie.
Anyway, even if you found an example from 30 years ago, that doesn’t mean much. Noone said FIP was perfect. Noone said that there wasn’t things that a pitcher could do to lower his ERA that aren’t captured by FIP.
What I keep saying is that it is much less flawed by ERA. With ERA, you are giving any play by the defense and giving full credit to the pitcher. With FIP, you are ignoring some things but at least you are giving credit to the right person.
The reason FIP predicts ERA so well is that it IS a measure of performance. If it wasn’t, it would fluctuate wildly like ERA does. You can throw out a few token examples like Buerhle or Tudor, but for the most part the ERA fluctuates around the FIP, because of luck, fielding, and random fluctuations.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
Luck vs. Skill vs. Value
If I recall correctly, this discussion was about whether Buehrle or Peavy is an “ace”. In that case, while I completely agree with you that actual results are the appropriate way to measure value, I don’t think past value is what you want to primarily use in the “ace” determination. My assumption is that you’re looking for ace-like performance in the future, and the predictive power of FIP is better than the predictive power of VORP or ERA.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
predictive power
Except when it isn’t, like with Mark Buehrle who outperforms his FIP every year.
VORP is a counting stat
The fact that Buerle always pitches 200 innings gives him a huge boost in VORP. Pitching lots has value, but is not usually what people mean when they say “ace”.
by Jon Kammerer on Dec 16, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Why wouldn't I use a counting stat?
Pitching lots absolutely has value when determining whether someone is an “ace” starter. We’re not talking about setup relievers. Eating innings is an incredibly valuable activity and wins teams ballgames.
Agreed, mostly
I agree that counting stats are the best way to measure total value, but disagree that it’s the best way to decide who an “ace” is. Would you rather have Grienke for 1/2 a season or Buerle for a whole season? Their VORPs would be about the same. What if that half a season included the playoffs?
by Jon Kammerer on Dec 16, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions
pitching in the NL West had to help...
I’m pretty sure Petco, Dodger stadium, and At&t Park are all pitcher friendly parks. That’s most of his season right there…
And in Petco Canyan
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
The rest of his season
Was spent in Colorado and Arizona, along with the entire NL. Park adjusted, Peavy still put up terrific numbers.
Again, I'm repeating myself, but park adjusted, and league adjusted
Peavy looks to be in about the 3.9 range. If you think that’s terrific, that’s fine. I disagree
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 3:26 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah
He’s above average. But he’s no ace.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Above average
Do you realize that the “average” starting pitcher is 75th in the league or <1 WAR? Peavy’s way above average.
Yeah
I think the ~20th best starting pitcher in baseball is pretty terrific.
You must love Scott Baker then
seeing as he was a win better than Peavy the last time Peavy threw a full season.
What's wrong with Scott Baker?
He’s a pretty damned good pitcher. He’s had 2 good seasons in a row now, right around the #30 pitcher in baseball. He’s the best pitcher on the Twins, good thing Pavano and Blackburn aren’t too far behind.
Repeat
I think we are definately favored in the central. I don’t KNOW what Ken-dog is thinking, i mean they took on way to much money on peavy, and rios. ANS now it seems that they are willing to scrape the bottom of the bin, and spend greatly for it.
Want Railings got tohttp:// www.Kassonconcrete.com
Maybe
But the pitching of the White Sox should be good.
by clutterheart on Dec 16, 2009 8:02 AM EST up reply actions
Juan Pierre
I think Juan Pierre is more than just “a little bit better” than AAAA-lifer dewayne wise.. actually they aren’t really similar players at all other than they play OF. Wise’s OBP is typically poor but typically hits for power (on the rare occasion he makes contact) whereas Pierre’s value is based on how well he gets on base (typically mediocre OBP) so he can use his speed.
Pierre is clearly more valuable than dewayne wise but all things considered I don’t know if he offers them a very significant upgrade over Jermaine Dye (which is who I would consider him to be replacing in a OF of Pierre, Rios, Quentin).
For all the average to just above average names they’ve inked so far I don’t know why they didn’t just pick up one solid big-time player like Adrian Beltre or yet another stud pitcher (Sheets, Bedard) instead that would’ve actually made a big impact on their club.
I don’t know why they didn’t just pick up one solid big-time player like Adrian Beltre
Well because Teahan will be manning 3B. Teahan, Ramirez, Gordon, and Konerko is the Shitsox infield next year…all I can say is, I am glad that they like mediocrity over there.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
wow
you twins fans are pretty creative, i mean just copy and mediocrity everywhere and then your point is made. What we really need to look at here is how Peavy and Rios will do in Chicago for a whole year. I know alot are down on Rios but he should bounce back after a horrible 2009. There is no way in the freaking world you Twinkies can say that your rotation is better than the White Sox, im a Indians fan(dont ask how I got here) and it is obvious how the white sox rotation is superior to the twins. I would take peavy, buehrle, danks, floyd, and sweaty freddy over you five any day. On the other hand, Nathan scares the crap out of me…
Pierre over Pods
Juan Pierre is replacing Scott Podsednik in Left Field, but more importantly as the White Sox leadoff man. Comparatively, Pierre scores more runs than Podsednik, a higher OBP, fewer strikeouts and has more baseball intelligence when on the basepaths than Pods has ever demonstrated. Pierre is also a little younger, important when your game is speed.
PA R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB
Podsednik
649 88 161 29 6 6 46 49 16 53 94 .277 .340 .381 .720 87 222
Pierre
686 91 188 22 9 1 44 52 18 38 38 .301 .348 .372 .720 85 233
at least Kenny Williams has put together a team that can play under the sun. The Twins are going to struggle early in the season, playing outdoors in the North, and the extra twin-billings later in the season will wear them down in the stretch run. Welcome to the real AL Central.
very nice
taking a seasons stats…that certainly proves a lot!!! Good grief, Punto is a superstar!!! One year, he hit almost .300! He should be in the HOF and the All Star Game next year. Maybe, baseball writers should consider giving Punto MVP and CY Young award as well.
Hell, Punto is just an amazing player (who should really go to the White Sox since he would get about $30 million for 3 years). The point here is that a single season does not make a player!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
Look at the SB %
For all of Pierre’s smarts, his CS is as bad as Podsednik. I’m glad they gave up 2 minor league players and $9M for the privilege of having a player essentially the same as Scott Podsednik.
He has 8 points higher OBP! Wow!
Most of that was early in his career, and all of that was in the NL. If you adjust for the league he was playing in, his OBP goes below Podsedniks. At this point in his career, he looks to be about average as far as OBP goes or just above it… maybe .335. League average OBP + No shred of power = bad hitter. His range has gone from great early in his career to now average. His arm still is laughably bad. All in all, maybe an average fielder.
Let’s see, average fielder, bad hitter….hmmm. big upgrade!! Put him in the lead off spot!
Baseball IQ!!! Juan Pierre!! You have got to be shitting me.
Over his career, he has just under a 75% stolen base percentage. Not exactly Ichiro out there. In fact, at that rate, he’s not doing his team any good. Not to mention that he’s gotten slower. As far as podsednik goes, he has almost the exact same sb% for his career, and stole as many bases in fewer games than pierre last year. I just can’t imagine how you can pull up those stats and actually say that you got an upgrade. They are the SAME PLAYER! There is no upgrade here. You replaced an average fielding, poor hitter who steals bases but gets thrown out too much with an average fielding, poor hitter who steals bases but gets thrown out too much.
I’m glad that your argument boils down to him scoring a whole 3 more runs in 37 more plate appearances than pods and having 8 points higher obp while playing in the weaker league. How you can type those words and not realize that you sound ridiculous is beyond me.
Sorry this is getting long, but what the hell are you talking about playing under the sun? Are you saying that because our guys are white? We can’t handle the sun? We’re going to have so many Twin-billings that we can’t handle the stretch run? We’re going struggle playing in the North? Do you realize that both teams play in the same stadium? Why the hell would the Twins be at a disadvantage? Does any of this really make sense in your head?
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
Weather
He does have a point about the weather – he’s saying that because the weather in Minnesota is often crappy until June, it’s likely that the Twins will have some games postponed, leading to some extra doubleheaders (or lost days off) later in the year. No need to read any racism or anything into it.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
What point?
Why would older players (White Sox) fare better with fewer days off than younger players (Twins)? It’s stupid fanboy BS.
their days lost would be spread out more
We would lose all the days where we couldn’t play at home, Sox would only lose a few, whoever else we were playing against would lose a few.
I think he makes a legitimate point, just not a very important point. That’s just the nature of baseball, you deal with the weather and doubleheaders when you need to.
"So [Kouzmanoff]’s going to make decent monkey, but he’d be affordable." - Jesse
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 16, 2009 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
He said "at least Kenny Williams has put together a team that can play under the sun."
This, to me, was a completely seperate statement than the double header thing. The twins stadium and Kenny’s roster construction are two different things. I have no idea how too interpet that as anything but racist.
As far as the double header thing… I have no idea why we’d have more double headers than chicago. Baseball generally does not cancel games because of cold. They cancel games because of precipitation, whether it’s rain or snow. I’m not going to look it up, but I don’t think we get more precipitation in May than Chicago.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 3:32 PM EST up reply actions
My comments are in no way racist, I’m as white as Mauer and Morneau. I was commenting on the fact that the Twins are moving from a dome to an open air stadium.
For the record, there is less precipitation in Minneapolis during May than there is in Chicago, but there is more precipitation in Minneapolis during each of April, June, July and August than there is in Chicago.
Also, the Sox have performed poorly in domes for years and the Metrodome was a huge advantage for the Twins in head-to-head division play. The move outdoors will effect the AL Central Standings by the time the season is thru.
by SoxIncursion on Dec 17, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps the indoor home park advantage will be gone
But that doesn’t say anything about the way the clubs are built. All things considered, a younger, faster team will play better than a team full of washed up veterans indoors or out, especially in double headers.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
said poorly
I understand what he meant it just sounded stupid. I agree the dome was a huge advantage with the roof and the turf. Also the fact that there is just as much foul ground as the colliseum and the twins built their teams off of this design. hit the ball on the ground and run your ass off. now with mauer and morneau especially their game plan has changed a little bit but most of the pirhanas still remain. the open air field will help the sox but on time will determine how much it will help
Adjustment
Fighting the elements for the first month, the Twins will be just as rough and raw as any of their opponents. So, April will be fun to watch as the Twins adapt. The joy is that they will learn the field and adjust before their May and June first-time opponents come to town.
But weather MAY be the biggest factor.
Wife got us a 20-season ticket plan for Christmas. We sit high. But we’ll adjust!
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
Cobbled together
It might be one thing if these guys came up together and had years under their belt, but, bringing in all these ringers from around the league and expecting them to win a division? That’s chutzpah.
Teahen is not a 3B. The games I have seen, he is beyond bad. A true disaster waiting to happen, at any moment. He has some offense, but not near enough to compensate.
Ramirez and Beckham, who knows? They might be average. At least they’re gamers. On offense, they are decent.
Konerko, Pyrzienski, Quentin—-slow and slower. Hamstrings just waiting to pull.
They got rid of Dye, Pod-man and Thome. But, the truth is: what’s the future here? Rios, Pierre and Jones are riding the downslope of careers. Teahen, Konerko, Pierszinski won’t ever get better.
At least Detroit and Cleveland are trying to go young and rebuild. Chicago is just trying to field the best bar-team they can put together with no real thought of what comes next.
I expect them to fall apart mid-season.
I think Beckham will be a stud this year, and Ramirez will be pretty decent
but yeah, the rest of the guys are just getting older, and some of them (Pierre) were never that good to begin with.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
I agree
Beckham should be good next year…but does he play 2B?
I have not been following them that close.
by clutterheart on Dec 16, 2009 8:01 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I'm sure he'll play second
He’s a converted shortstop, and should play well.
by lookatthosetwins on Dec 16, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
White Sox have a clearly superior rotation to the Twins
And Floyd, Danks, Beckham, Ramirez, is a decent core fore the future. I like the Twins next year and in the foreseeable future, but the White Sox aren’t a joke or anything.
And yet
I have the feeling that the Twins and White Sox will be neck-and-neck at the end of the season. Nobody is going to run away with the Central, and Kenny and Ozzie have some sort of “mad genius” thing going. After all, for all the Twins’ smartball over the last 5-10 years, it is the Mighty Whities that got the ring.
But
I feel that the twins are only one more pick-up from being run away favorites. If they can fill some other gap they got a chance. Of course if the whities improve as well it will narrow the difference between them. The thing with chicago is they have a lot of ????, whether it be konerko, or quentin, or rameriez, or freddy garcia, or rios. I mean the list goes on. Its pretty much their entire team. And i know for a fact that all of those questions are not going to get answered in positive way, but maybe some, and thats all the chisox need, especially if the twins hit a snag
Want Railings got tohttp:// www.Kassonconcrete.com
Pierre is a pretty good pickup for them
Vikings 4 the superbowl
Pierre=Wise
Except Wise is considerably cheaper. Pierre cannot steal bases effectively, cannot throw, and his OBP will be well below average this next year, and his range is diminishing. All in all, the Sox would have done better to keep Wise for a significantly cheaper option. Pierre will cost $9 million over two years to play a average-bad outfield, and be an absolutely horrible lead off man.
All-in-all, bad pickup.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
Pierre is an upgrad over Pod
I’m just amazed they won as many games as they did with him in center. Pierre at least will cover some ground out there. And he’s a much better lead-off hitter.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
much better leadoff hitter?
Are we talking about the same Juan Pierre? If we are, that is a quite false statement. Pierre isn’t a noticeable upgrade in center either.
I am not quite so sure
Pierre has spent his entire career in the NL. Pierre has never had a great arm or never really stolen bases with much success. He may cover more ground than Pods, but that is about it. Pierre only has 8 points higher OBP than Pods did, and Pods spent several years in the AL.
As with Peavy, expect to see a noticeable drop in production in moving from the NL to the AL.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
It's a function of my low esteme for Podsednik
I’m no fan of Pierre, but Pod is a AAAA player who’s best position is left field batting ninth.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
But
a very expensive pick-up
Want Railings got tohttp:// www.Kassonconcrete.com
All I've got to say is...
The White Sox have one of the best rotations in baseball. Which makes them a scary team.
by PurplePeopleEaters on Dec 18, 2009 3:11 AM EST reply actions
Wooo Hoooo
Keep it up Chicago White Sux!!!! Wouldnt mind having to worry about Kansas City actually moving up a few places in the standings.
"If you're gonna shoot, shoot, don't talk."
"You men are only risking your lives, while I am risking an almost-certain Academy Award nomination for Best Supporting Actor!"
"We have clearance Clarence. Roger Rodger, what's our vector Victor?"
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