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Twins Starting Pitcher PECOTA Comparables

PECOTA's 2009 player cards are ready, so let's have a little fun.  We already know who our five starters will be, and here are their comparibles...

Name

Comp 1

Comp 2

Comp 3

Comp 4

Comp 5

Scott Baker

Kevin Millwood

Dustin Hermanson

Doc Medich

Jim McAndrew

Ed Halicki

Francisco Liriano

Ken Holtzman

Chan Ho Park

Jim O'Toole

Steve Avery

Wilson Alvarez

Kevin Slowey

Bob Sebra

Andy Sonnanstine

Scott Sanderson

Reggie Cleveland

Brad Radke

Nick Blackburn

Mike Harkey

Billy Wynne

Mike Scott

Mark Clark

Josh Fogg

Glen Perkins

Allen Watson

Brian Anderson

Nino Espinosa

Neal Heaton

Jerry Augustine

Baker:  Millwood is a decent comp for a number one starter, particularly when PECOTA is using '02 as the comp year.  It was one of Millwood's three best years, and if Baker is able to win 18 games this year, the rest of his numbers should be pretty good as well.  Hermanson had a career ERA+ of 104 over 12 years, but never pitched a full season after year seven.  Medich was effective throughout his career in terms of baserunners, but still the definition of average as he managed a career ERA+ of 99.  McAndrew's career lasted just seven seasons, limiting base runners but still out of the league by age 31.  Finally, Halicki had four good seasons before hitting a stumbling block two years running, and was out of the league before he turned 30.

PECOTA thinks:  If Baker can stay healthy, he has the potential to be an effecitve and reliable starter for many years.  There will be some down years, but the body of work should be solid.

Liriano:  Holtzman pitched in the majors from 19 to 33, had a career ERA+ of 105, and for the majority of that career was very effective.  Park is sort of a contemporary here, although he's on the tail end of his career; fifteen major league seasons with his best years from '96 to '01.  The last few years haven't been as fruitful, to say the least.  O'Toole also had a pretty good stretch in the middle of his ten-year career.  Former Brave "ace" Avery is on another end of the spectrum, where his best years were in the first four years of his career, and then hung on by his past successes like Park.  Finally there's Alvarez, who had a long career, but only had a few years of solid success in the first half of it.

PECOTA thinks:  Liriano can have a long career if he avoids injury, but as a starter his days as a front-line man are probably numbered.  A move to the bullpen by the time he's 30 might be the best way to squeeze the most out of his talent.

Slowey:  Sebra had a flash career, with no success.  Sonnanstine is a contemporary of Slowey's, and had a pretty good second professional season with the Rays in '08.  Sanderson, particularly effective earlier in his career, had an 18-year career.  Cleveland was largely average over the course of his 12-year career.  And look at that--it's Slowey, not Baker, who gets the Bradke comp...and during his 20-win season in 97!

PECOTA thinks:  Slowey is as good now as he'll ever be, and while he can have a few effective years going forward he'll be into decline by the time he turns 30.

Blackburn:  Nick's number one comp had decent career in terms of years, but rarely did he see a lot of innings.  Wynne's career was short and, like Harkey, his comp year is brief and a tad disconcerting.  Mike Scott was a good starter from '85 - '89, even winning 20 games in the last year in that stretch, but his comp year is '82 and a long way from being anything resembling good.  Clark's career wasn't bad, but his comp year was.  Last but not least, Fogg has been a guy with lots of opportunities but not a lot of success.

PECOTA thinks:  Blackburn will have opportunities to have a decent career, but if it happens it won't be this year.

Perkins:  Watson as  number one comp is pretty bad, if we're being diplomatic.  Not bad as in "a bad comparison", but bad as in "I really hope Perkins doesn't pitch like Watson".  Anderson is more of the same, a part-time starter and part-time reliever.  Espinosa had a short, bell-curve career...but his comp year of '79 might be the best we could hope for on this list for Glen.    Heaton is back in the mold of Watson and Anderson, and Augustine is just more of the same.

PECOTA thinks:  Perkins is a flash in the pan.

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Comments

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Cool stuff

One of the things that drives me crazy about PECOTA comparables is that while five players are typically listed as the top comps for a player, PECOTA actually uses many more than that. In the case of Liriano, Fernando Valenzuela is his #8 comp, with a “similarity” score of 48 (one below the #5 comp, 3 below the top comp).

For Baker, PECOTA lists Aaron Harang, Jon Lieber and Ken Forsch as top-20 comps.

For Slowey, PECOTA lists Juan Marichal, Rick Aguilera and Kyle Lohse (!).

Blackburn: Carlos Silva, John Burkett, LaTroy Hawkins.

Perkins: A whole lotta nothing. Ken Dayley, Gustavo Chacin?

by Adam Peterson on Mar 1, 2009 10:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA is tough to figure out sometimes

I don’t understand how they choose their comps. I mean, how could LaTroy Hawkins be anything like Nick Blackburn? Not only did they have radically different pitching styles, but Hawkins was rushed to the majors and failed as a starter while Blackburn was a 26-year-old rookie who succeeded as a starter. I just scratch my head sometimes.

And once they choose their comps, I’m not quite clear how they derive their projections from them. Last year, they listed Boog Powell and Kent Hrbek as comps for Morneau. Both players had good years at the same age as Morneau was in 2008, yet they projected Mroneau as regressing further from his 2007 down year. Of course, the result was closer to the comps they chose than to their projections. It’s almost like they made the projection before looking at the comps and decided to stick with it anyway.

Some people are willing to overlook these kinds of things. But if a quarter of their projections are just garbage, it doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 2, 2009 2:19 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Projections

But if a quarter of their projections are just garbage, it doesn’t inspire a lot of confidence.

Given that projection systems can’t really compensate for all the different possibilities a player can be injured or otherwise fail to thrive, and that even fans have a hard time keeping track of what happens with a player in the off-season (who knew Joe Nathan was going to show up to spring training with arm stiffness?), I find it hard to imagine that any projection system will ever get below about a 20% garbage rate until such time as athletes are monitored like intensive care patients.

Thanks for the essay, Jesse – it reminds me that it’s about time to do the annual Shadow Twins based on the comp data at baseball-reference.com.

by dwintheiser on Mar 2, 2009 7:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks David...

…I’m working on re-vamping the links bar…you’ll be towards the top once I’m actually finished.

by Jesse on Mar 3, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Tough to figure

because PECOTA uses so many players as comps. It really ends up being a weighted blend of many different comparable players, resulting in the overall weighted average. Also, remember that PECOTA considers minor league performance when determining comparables. Perhaps minor league performance for Blackburn and Hawkins was more comparable. I don’t know how much PECOTA considers peripherals such as SO/9 and BB/9 and how much it relies on EqERA. Blackburn and Hawkins may have had similar EqERA leading up to the comp year, but I can’t imagine they were close to each other in SO or BB per 9 innings.

by Adam Peterson on Mar 3, 2009 7:27 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Minor league numbers

A cursory view of Blackburn and Hawkins in the minors shows rather large disparities. Hawkins didn’t strike out as many guys per inning as I would expect (above low A), but he still managed 6 Ks per nine. Blackburn K’d about 4 guys per 9 innings. I suppose if you look hard enough, you can see similarities. But if you look hard enough, you can see similarities between Slowey and Clemens. I appreciate wanting to get a range of comps, but there are limits, or they should be.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 3, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

This is why I ask the question

about how PECOTA defines its comparables. If it’s EqERA, maybe Blackburn and Hawkins are comps. Otherwise, I agree that it is difficult to determine how they can be comps…

by Adam Peterson on Mar 3, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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