Poor Johan Santana

by montanatwinsfan on Apr 13, 2009 6:17 PM EDT Comment 20 comments

Remember that pitcher who was a little frustrated at the Twins organization for continually failing to pony up for some offensively adept teammates because he was tired of losing games when he only gave up an average of 3+ runs/start?

Well, he signed a big contract for a team capable of providing him with some run support. But poor Johan hasn't really fared any better in NY than he had with the Twins. Early this season Johan has some painfully good starts that were not well supported. Frankly he was lucky to get away with a win.

Game 1: IP H R ER BB K 5.2 3 1 1 4 7 Game 2: 7.0 3 2 0 1 13 That's right, 7 innings pitched in game 2 with 13 SO and 1 walk and no earned runs and yet he was tagged with the loss. That's gotta hurt - just a little. And Francisco Liriano thought he had it bad.

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Yeah,

thanks to Danny Murphy effin’ up a can-of-corn high fly with two out and one one. It was pathetic, and Santana was clearly unhappy.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Apr 13, 2009 8:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Poor

Poor Johan Santana and his Cy Young awards and life in the spotlight in New York.

Pooooooooooooooooooooooooooooor Johan Santana.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Apr 13, 2009 9:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, he has 137 million ways to console himself

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 13, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

it will never be enough to heal the pain

but I’m sure he’ll get another contract after this one to keep trying

by caluofmn on Apr 14, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Poor

Poor is an interesting, and probably intentional word choice.

Also, since its really more of a permutation or combination problem, I bet he can find way more than 137 million ways to console himself. Plus, I’ve heard that the best things in life are free, which I think he is still allowed to enjoy.

by snolls on Apr 13, 2009 11:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Is he?

I don’t know any rich people who can enjoy stuff without thinking about how much it costs. Even if the experience appears free, they look for the hidden cost. Let’s say it’s a walk on the beach. How did they get there? What could they be doing to earn money if they weren’t walking on the beach? These thoughts tend to consume the minds of rich people. Not all, I’m sure, but all the rich people I have ever met.

I don’t think of Santana as the saint he was portrayed by TC media. There are lots of stories about his ruthless ways off the field that would make your hair curl. I don’t know if they’re true. But just the way he negotiated makes me think the main reason he managed the situation the way he did was because of the 137 million and not the other things, like winning. I suppose some of that was the art of the deal—he’s as competitive off the field as on. But it’s naive to think he’s not greedy to turn down $100 million guaranteed just because one other pitcher made more than that at the time.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 14, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rich

“These thoughts tend to consume the minds of rich people.”

How do you think they got rich in the first place, right?

For Santana, it’s tough to get to that level of excellence in competition and be easygoing and uncompetitive. I don’t blame guys for following every cent they can get. Everyone would, it’s just economics. I don’t like the guys that throw attitude in the media on top of it, like Hunter. Santana started criticizing the Twins a little there at the end, but he mostly just showed up and pitched really really well. He offered the Twins a deal they could afford the year before his last here and the Twins didn’t take it. I don’t have any hard feelings at all against Johan because he went after the money or over anything else. I’m damn proud I got to watch him play so much and I really miss getting to see him pitch every five days. It wasn’t until he was soon leaving that I marveled over that so much. The best pitcher in the game today, absolutely amazing at times, and we got to watch him pitch every five days. Remarkable.

by AdamOnFirst on Apr 14, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

by montanatwinsfan on Apr 14, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

greed

I didn’t say anything about Greed, or Santana’s saintly ways. I don’t blame him for wanting to get paid. Its all relative, and its all about personal values. I definitely know wealthy people who enjoy the simple things.

Santana ended up in Minnesota, with a team that was one of the worst in baseball for years, because the CBA tells him he has no choice in the matter. Santana is driven and competitive. When it came time to decide, he didn’t have any desire to play for less than he could demand. Actually, if his entire priority had been money, he probably would have waited until he was a free agent, but instead he took the contract while under Twins/Mets control. I know he could reject a trade, but the Mets would have been upset if they had been forced to give up their prospects for only a rental, with a chance to compete on the open market.

Asking for money is not greed. Changing jobs for a raise is not greed. Greed is when you disregard signficant negative impacts, such as stealing from your friends, our embarassing people around you to look better to your bosses, etc.

In reality, I don’t see wanting to win as any less greedy. If you only want to play for the Yankees or Lakers, because you want to win a championship, then you have placed your value in the title. That isn’t sporting, or valiant. Playing for less in your last couple of seasons just to try to get a championship misses the point of competition. Similarly, other players value being the star on their team, and seek out situations where they don’t share the spotlight. Seeking money doesn’t bother me any more than these other two scenarios I mentioned. In fact, none of the three really bother me that much. Players can choose what they value, just like a lot of them could afford to retire early, and go back to school, or go spend their time with their families, if that’s what they want to do.

by snolls on Apr 14, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quibbles

I won’t quibble with everything you write here, snolls, I promise. Just this:

Santana ended up in Minnesota, with a team that was one of the worst in baseball for years because the CBA tells him he has no choice in the matter.

Santana was drafted onto a team that had one losing season out of seven and won its division in four out of the seven years in which he played for them. ANd he had a little something to do with their early exists from teh playoffs in 2003 and 2004, failing to pitch one quality start in either series.

If the CBA had not allowed him to be drafted in the Rule 5 draft, he would have made it to the majors in 2003 rather than 2000, at the pace he was on. Instead of getting a market-leading contract in 2004, he would not have been arbitration eligible until 2006. His first free agent year would be the end of 2009, where he could expect a free agent contract of one quarter of his current contract.

You act like it was a hardship for poor Johan to get drafted by the Twins because of that bad old CBA. On the contrary, the Twins made Johan Santana. When they drafted him he had one pitch. They taught him the change-up and slider. Who knows if he even became a serviceable major leaguer without those pitches?

When he pitched well, they paid him a market-leading four-year contract as soon as he was arbitration-eligible. And, they offered to renegotiate the contract a year before free agency, making a fair offer. In return, he scoffed at them, ridiculed them in the press and demanded a trade to one of three teams, steering them to the team that had won fewer games than the Twins in the previous seven years. He nearly scuttled that trade, taking the negotiations to the last minute after the league granted an extension, and threatening to walk away and go to free agency as a lame duck pitcher for the Twins after all the two teams had done to accommodate his demands.

Give him credit. He got more that he would have gotten if he had walked away, with the market cratering just after the most valuable pitcher—CC Sanathia—was signed. But he won’t win with the Mets, and his old team will win in his absence. He’ll be left holding his money. In that regard, he’ll get what he deserves. Johan Santana has led a charmed existence as a professional baseball player. Poor Johan indeed.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 14, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mets

The Mets COULD win, they have lots of good players. They’ve had uncanny collapses at the end of the last couple years.

And really, who else could the Twins have traded him too? nobody else could take that size of a contract.

I still say he offered the Twins what could have been a reasonable offer the year before his final season with the team. The Twins could have taken him there, they knew what would be incoming.

He played hardball that offseason he left, but it’s just business, he wanted to get everything he could, and why not. But he didn’t really do anything disrespectful. He didn’t so much demand a trade as understand our position forced us into a trade. And sure, the Twins may have made him, but it isn’t like we got nothing out of it. We got two Cy Young seasons (should have been 3) relatively cheap. We got to watch him pitch for several years. We got several young players out of the deal, one of whom is starting on our team right now.

I’m not saying I feel bad for Johan for the result of his decisions in any way. He made them. Maybe he’d hate New York or get more bad luck losses. That was his decision, i don’t feel bad for him, but I don’t begrudge him for anything. He’s no Torii Hunter or Chuck Knoblach.

by AdamOnFirst on Apr 15, 2009 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

CBA

CMath – I’m just saying that he didn’t choose to be in Minnesota. A lot of Twins fans express feelings that he was disloyal, and that we were abandoned, which I think is unreasonable. I’m not feeling bad for Santana. I just don’t think its fair for fans to criticize him for leaving. He pitched well for us, and, with the exception of the comments about Castillo being traded, was a good team player, and good to the fans.

He never made any unreasonable demands of the Twins. He never insisted on being traded, he never came out in public to force any issues. And, I agree that he ended up signing during better market conditions, but he didn’t know that. Had he only cared about maximum contract size, he would have really dicked the Mets over and accepted the trade immediately, without negotiating the contract. Then the Mets would have been in a really awkward position, of having given up a lot in the way of prospects, but not knowing whether they would keep Santana. And, at the time, he probably could have expected a better contract, from getting the Yankees and Red Sox to bid against the Mets.

All of this is irrelevant. I’m just saying that he was never disrespectful, and didn’t owe anything more to the Twins and their faithful than he gave us, which was some phenomenal baseball over quite a number of years. I still pull for him every time he pitches.

by snolls on Apr 15, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Different views of history

Perhaps the Twins should have taken his offer in 2007. But it is unheard of for the Twins to renegotiate a contract with two years left on it. The Twins did not want to set that precedent. But they did try to renegotiate with a year left, and offered him more money than the offer they turned down the year before, and he not only said no, he became ruthless.

When he turned down the Twins’ 5-year, $100 million offer, he said he was through negotiating with us. We could either trade him that offseason, or expect him to leave for free agency after 2008. And his no-trade clause gave him the power to choose the three teams he was willing to be traded to. When the Yankees and Red Sox talked with his agent, they backed away, leaving the Mets as the only suitor. And that almost fell through when Santana himself took over the negotiations in the last hours before the extended deadline. He said he was willing to walk away from the table over $100,000 in a $137 million base-pay contract. In my opinion, he did not bargain in good faith. He flaunted our good will. And his agent dissed the organization repeatedly in the process.

Am I bitter? Apparently. I had a vision of him as a great player and a great teammate. I now have a vision of him as a great player who is very selfish and greedy. It reminds me of what Jack Morris did after the 91 season. He did what was within his rights to do by the letter of his contract, which was still a very good deal for him. But I expected him to honor the spirit of his agreement after the Twins gave him a chance when nobody else would. He didn’t. He left for the highest bidder.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 15, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who's to blame

“But it is unheard of for the Twins to renegotiate a contract with two years left on it. The Twins did not want to set that precedent.”

That is the Twins decision then, not Santana’s. In my opinion, it was a very poor decision. The Twins knew he would get an enormous contract on the open market, and they had their chance, but they didn’t want to. Their choice. It isn’t Santana’s fault they didn’t want to do this. They could have made an exception to one of the most exceptional players in the history of our franchise.

I won’t ever, or rarely ever, criticize a player for following the money. They should be free to go for what they want. Some want money, some want a winner, some want to keep their family in place. He never trashed the team or his teammates in the media except for the Castillo trade, and that was justifiably very frustrating for the other players.

And dammit, he pitched the greatest game I’ve ever seen in person. I’m not still like a Santana super fan or anything, but I don’t see any reason to hate him.

Hate Torii Hunter if you ant to hate something.

by AdamOnFirst on Apr 15, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree to disagree

I hold the Twins players that I consider my heroes to higher standards, and I can name a dozen who have been more respectful to this org. But I don’t want to argue about that. I don’t hate him though. I just don’t particularly like him anymore.

I don’t hate Torii either, but I never really liked him except as a player. The difference is, I used to be a huge fan of Santana. I was never a huge fan of Torii. So I don’t have the same feelings of betrayal about Torii.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 15, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree to Agree

Adam – I’m on board with you.

The Twins and Santana each had legitimate business reasons for their decisions. That’s fine, its how it played out. Hunter, on the other hand, was a dick. Just because he smiled a lot, and loved being interviewed, did not make him a good person. There is something wrong when you throw a punch at your own teammate.

by snolls on Apr 16, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

Neither Hunter nor Santana are saints. Santana was a good teammate. Hunter was not. So if you develop a three-point criterion, Santana has two of them (good player, good teammate) and Hunter only has one (good player). I just can’t be a super fan of someone who does not have all three, the third being a good citizen.

Twins who have had all three: Jim Kaat, Harmon Killebrew, Bob Allison, Rod Carew, Tony Oliva, Kent Hrbek, Brad Radke, Joe Mauer.

Twins who have only two: Puckett, Santana. I once thought Puckett was a good citizen, but that turned out to be a lie. I once held out hope for Santana. I no longer do.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Apr 16, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sounds Fair enough

Sounds fair to me. i’m not a superfan of Santana anyway. I don’t like, check his boxscores or anything. He’s with the Mets now, I’m for Baker, and Slowey, and Liriano and co. now.

I’m really not big fans of many players who have left the Twins. Still really really really liked Corey Koskie, and I still have a soft spot for Jason Bartlett, but that’s about it. Oh, I hope Mike Restovich actually gets a chance soon, but his prime is pretty much over now. Too bad, he was probably good.

by AdamOnFirst on Apr 16, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs