Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau Need Help

by Jesse on May 17, 2009 7:37 PM EDT in By the Numbers

Holes in the lineup aren't exclusive to the bottom of the order.

I'm going to paint a picture, and I'll keep it brief. Because it's not a pretty picture. We need Bob Ross to come in and paint some happy little trees, or maybe a secret impact hitter that nobody knows about right down there in the corner, but until that happens this offense is in a world of hurt.

Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are doing what they do, and Jason Kubel is having a decent start to the year. Even Denard Span is having a pretty good time in the leadoff role. From there the offensive help declines precipitously and it shows.

Twins Batting	Line	Primaries
#1	.280/.371/.353	Span
#2	.187/.251/.245	Casilla, Harris, Tolbert
#3	.356/.429/.631	Morneau, Mauer
#4	.271/.348/.590	Kubel, Morneau
#5	.319/.367/.465	Cuddyer, Kubel, Crede
#6	.209/.321/.388	Cuddyer, Crede
#7	.274/.324/.393	Young, Gomez
#8	.299/.373/.346	Morales, Redmond, Young
#9	.250/.336/.317	Punto

There should be concern over the above. What should stand out are the lines for Minnesota's number two and eight hitters. The problem here is that everyone who has been plugged in to hit behind Denard Span has failed on a miserable scale, while most of the guys who have succeeded at the number eight spot are either bottom-of-the-order guys or guys who are establishing a horrendous line in the two-hole.

Brendan Harris seems like the logical number two man, due to a hot start which has kept aloft his mediocre season line: .289/.337/.408. Since May 1 he's 5-for-32 with four walks. He's succeeded at the bottom of the order this year. Others who have hit well in the eight spot, like Delmon Young and Jose Morales, aren't likely candidates to start hitting at the top of the order.

It's good for offenses to spread out their weak points to a certain extent, but right now the Twins have too many holes to fill. Certain guys needed to step up this season to keep the offense afloat, and so far this has been done through sheer luck and the contributions of a relative few.

What's logical? To keep an easy out in between your leadoff man and two of the league's best hitters, or to re-evaluate how you fill out your lineup card? One way or another something needs to be done about this offense, because right now they need a kick in the pants.

My crackpot idea? Personally I'd slide Mauer up to second, Morneau to third, etc. But that's not going to happen. So, start hitting Michael Cuddyer second. He's patient enough to work a walk from time to time, and while he's strikeout prone that's not such a bad trait when hitting second; it means fewer double plays when Span reaches first to kick off the game. Span-Cuddyer-Mauer-Morneau-Kubel-Crede-Harris-Young-Punto.

Rant fin.

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I like it.

Which means nothing, I suppose.

by Jon Marthaler on May 17, 2009 7:56 PM EDT reply actions

twins

i believe that the twins have been doing it with mirrors for quite sometime and this year it will catch up with them, it seems that everyone whom they bring up has a career year either at the plate or pitching in the past to help them, unfortunately for them, this hasn;t been the case this year, if the twins do not go out and get some protection for mauer and morneau i am afraid that they will finish behind chicago alot farther than they did last year, the yankees,love or hate them swept the twins for one reason only, they have the talent, the twins do not.

by harleysportrider on May 17, 2009 9:46 PM EDT reply actions

pretty sure

the yankees have won 3 games of a 4 game series

by smoooooth on May 17, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions

Yep...

By a combined 4 runs. That’s domination!

(shakes head)

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on May 18, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions

I dunno

I dunno, the White Sox have a slew of problems of their own. This whole division really does. Our rotation has very quietly strung together a pretty decent set of starts, if that continues, we’ll compete in an AL Central thick with decency but thin on excellence. It’s easy to be frustrated after the team’s performance this weekend, but no matter what batting order, this team won’t go 1-25 with RISP every series.

But yeah, I’d like to see which spot in the batting order have been getting the most chances with RISP. This week, it was second, and that had tragic results.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on May 17, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Mauer and Morneau don't need "protection"

Lineup protection is a myth. The Twins merely just need better hitters. It starts with Cuddyer taking some pitches, and hopefully Delmon or Gomez will take a leap forward.

stop by Waving the Wheat (http://wavingthewheat.wordpress.com/) and The College Hockey Blog (http://thecollegehockeyblog.wordpress.com/)

by fetch9 on May 18, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions

More than protection

More than protection ,they need guys to be on base when they come up to be driven in. Span has performed that job wonderfully this year, we need someone else to step up, or we need to bat Mauer second.

by AdamOnFirst on May 18, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions

did the Twins forfit Monday's game?

by caluofmn on May 18, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions

well, if you're honest,

then any team that ends up winning anything usually has performances from guys playing over their heads. whether this is the twins’ offense last year or the white sox starting rotation the year they won the world series. the one exception to this rule may be the new york yankees who, yes, have managed to win via walk-offs. if that’s what you mean by “they have the talent, the twins do not”, then i think you’re talent scale has a lot more parity than you think it does.

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Define "quite some time"

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on May 17, 2009 10:35 PM EDT reply actions

OH

Oh, one problem with your “Cuddyer doesn’t hit into many DP’s because he just strikes out a lot” idea is he DOES still manage to hit into quite a few double plays, almost as many as Mauer, who is derided often for hitting into too many (he hits into a variable amount, but over 20 some years, which is kind of a lot).

by AdamOnFirst on May 18, 2009 12:14 AM EDT reply actions

I wonder

what it’d take to pry away someone like Drew Sutton of the Reds two be a 2 spot second base man. When is the earliest Bill Smith would start making moves?

"Hustle doesn't cost a dime and it looks good." - Pete Rose as Channeled by Marcus Lemon

by FirebatM3 on May 18, 2009 2:30 AM EDT reply actions

I've said it before

and I’ll say it again: Nick Punto does not belong in the major leagues. He’s a terrible hitter. So he plays above average defense in a position that the twins are deep at, so what? He dives head first into first base for crying out loud. He slightly better defensive skills do not bring enough value to this team to justify his terrible hitting. I seems like that guy always kills the rally and ends the inning with a double play. He needs to be released/sent down. Tolbert or Harris at SS.

by cdubs3201 on May 18, 2009 8:51 AM EDT reply actions

While Bob is at it,

can he paint a “happy little” 8th inning set up reliever too?

by montanatwinsfan on May 18, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions

hahaha....

….oh, bob ross.

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

This solves the outfield logjam, too!

By Gardy’s logic, putting Cuddyer 2nd means that he will have to become a middle infielder, so then they will be able to play a Delmon-Gomez-Span outfield every day.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on May 18, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions

NONONONONONONONONO!

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions

Batting order, Schmatting order

The Yankees made the plays this weekend, the Twins did not. Awful with RISP, and an awful bullpen, nuff said.

by wcooley on May 18, 2009 11:21 AM EDT reply actions

I didn't mean to make this about batting order, but it sort of turned out that way.

Mostly I wanted to point out that certain spots in the order weren’t producing, particularly whoever hits second. And it’s not just that the production from the two-hole is average or just sub-par…it’s terrible. Somebody needs to step up and produce there, because having one of your biggest offensive black holes sitting right in front of your two best hitters makes zero sense. And I wasn’t just talking about what’s been a frustrating first three games against the Yankees, this has been an ongoing problem.

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

I don't want to get into the thicket of batting order discussions

but I do want to point out that you’re doing Jason Kubel a bit of a disservice by calling his start to the year merely “decent”. He’s taken a big step up so far this year with a wOBA of .394, which is about .50 higher than his previous high.

by DK on May 18, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions

Looking at Kubel's average

I think you could make a case that maybe he could be trusted batting 2nd in the order.
He has no speed really but he makes good contact, seems to have good at bats most times.
I would be interested in seeing Kubel bat 2nd before Cuddyer.

by caluofmn on May 18, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions

Kubel's spot

The only drawback to that would be that Kubel bats with fewer runners on base than when he’s in the 4 or 5 spot, and he’s more a power guy than an OBP guy (although he’s been great at both this year).

Really, though, anyone’s better than what they’ve had there, and if Gardy’s going to insist on Mauer-Morneau in 3-4 (rather than 2-3), then I am fine with either Cuddyer or Kubel in the 2 hole.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on May 18, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions

only batting 2nd once

so maybe he’d still have the RBI opportunities…

by caluofmn on May 18, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions

True

That’s right, he would only bat second once, most likely, but the batters before him are still important. If Kubel bats fourth, the three batters before him are Span, Mauer, and Morneau, who all get on base at nearly a .400 clip. If he bats second, the three batters before him are Gomez, Punto, and Span – one good OBP guy, and two guys who are currently hitting like pitchers. If you make it four times through the lineup, that’s roughly one less guy that’s on base every game when Kubel comes to the plate.

We are in agreement on this, overall – Kubel, Cuddyer, Harris, and maybe even Delmon are better choices to bat second than Tolbert right now. The priority is to get the better hitters more at-bats.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on May 18, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Drawbacks to Kubel at #2

1. Lose a few RBI opportunities when he’s not behind M&M

2. You now have four straight left handed hitters 1-4

3. He’s not really an OBP guy, .335 the last two years. Cuddyer’s got a few points on him.

Even considering the above, I’d rather have Kubel in the #2, get him a bunch of extra AB…

by Adam Peterson on May 18, 2009 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions

I certainly wouldn't do it against a left hander

He really struggles against lefties.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on May 18, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions

Fair enough, I take it back.

He’s been wicked awesome.

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Move Mauer up to second and slide the whole order up

He’s the only one with the OBP, bat control, and base running ability to hit there.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on May 18, 2009 3:59 PM EDT reply actions

This is my ideal world.

by Jesse on May 18, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions

Looks better tonight

1. Denard Span, LF
2. Brendan Harris, 2B
3. Joe Mauer, C
4. Justin Morneau, 1B
5. Joe Crede, 3B
6. Jason Kubel, DH
7. Michael Cuddyer, RF
8. Carlos Gomez, CF
9. Nick Punto, SS

by guinness junky on May 18, 2009 4:45 PM EDT reply actions