Gardenhire Unloads On Youngsters

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 5:12 PM EDT in News Comment 45 comments

All quotes courtesy of Jim Souhan's power VS speed article at the Strib online.

I don't like continually ripping on our guys, let's get that out of the way. But after reading Souhan's piece about fifteen minutes ago, I found myself intrigued. Not by what Souhan wrote, but by the quotes he gave from Ron Gardenhire.

Gardy's opening salvo is for 23-year old Carlos Gomez:

"Go-Go just flails away," Gardenhire said of Gomez. "I don't know if he's a power guy or a speed guy, and I think he's caught right in between. He really believes he can hit it 10 miles, and he's not going to be satisfied with shooting it the other way. That's in his mind and until he decides that he has to use a little of both, he's going to do what he's doing."

This just sounds like immaturity on behalf of Gomez, and the attitude of a guy who doesn't know the difference between what he's capable of and what he thinks he's capable of. Gomez and his .604 OPS; 64 OPS+; 23.1% strikeout rate; 27.4% swings out of the zone. It's a quote that we've all known to be painfully true for awhile, but it's interesting (and oddly refreshing) to hear the thoughts from Gardy as well. But he's not done.

Onto Delmon Young, however briefly:

"Delmon's a different story. He's supposed to drive the ball. He's working on it, supposedly, and we'll see."

Supposedly? What does that mean? Is Delmon actually working on driving the ball? Or is he telling Gardenhire that he's working on it, but Gardenhire either doensn't believe him or think Young is working hard enough? Whatever the case may be, Gardenhire is NOT happy with Delmon.

Finally, Alexi Casilla:

"He's an enigma to me," Gardenhire said. "I don't know where he's at mentally. When I sent him down, the stuff he was saying to me ... I was like, 'Listen to you!' He's just not understanding the game."

Wow. What on earth could Casilla have said to elicit this? I'm not sure where Alexi thinks he's at or what he thinks is happening, but his .467 OPS basically means whatever he thinks is wrong. While I won't say that I think Gardy necessarily understands the game 100% of the time, given the choice between him and a 24-year old middle infielder with no major league success...I'm going with Gardy every time. But like both Gomez and Young before him, these are things we've already known.

Gomez doesn't understand what kind of a player he is yet. Young is having a difficult time working on things. Casilla is lost. Gardenhire's come out with these revelations in public, meaning his frustration and patience reached their limits. Maybe it's not the most adviseable thing to do, lambasting your young players in public, but I'm still happy to read it.

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Of all those, I find the one on Gomez to be the most encouraging. It sounds like Gomez at least generally knows what he’s doing; he just needs to focus on the correct aspect of his game (in Gardy’s view). With the other two, he sounds a lot less hopeful.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jun 19, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dumb Reporters

If I gotta choose between one of the best Managers in baseball or some stupid reporter who doesn’t know what he is talking about, I am going with Gardy every time. Get lost Jesse.

by BigSkyViking on Jun 19, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

You do understand those are quotes...

right? Not some reporter interpreting words, but actual quotes.

by guinness junky on Jun 19, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

I’m not arguing with Gardenhire. We’re pretty much on the same page here.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You don't talk to Jesse like that!

"He didn’t call me or anything. It was an accident, but a lot of people would have called to see how someone is doing after they got hit in the head. Especially if they had to go on the DL." — Morneau on pitcher Ron Villone after an April 2005 beaning.

by Gonzo2 on Jun 19, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Reporters

You said Gardy doesn’t understand the game 100 percent of the time. WRONG: Gardy understands the game better than any reporters in Minnesota, so if you talk like that, I’m gonna stick up for Gardy. Period. It’s not Gardy’s quotes that bother me, it is your words.

by BigSkyViking on Jun 19, 2009 6:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Toby...is that you?

by guinness junky on Jun 19, 2009 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe,

if Toby is 11 years old.

by montanatwinsfan on Jun 19, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But......he doesn't.

Definitely not 100% of the time. I mean….do you see how under-used Joe Nathan is, or how many outs Matt Tolbert is allowed to make?

He’s great at motivating players and being a good coach and mentor, sure. But tactically automatically correct? C’mon.

by TMW on Jun 19, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dumb Reporters

No this is not Toby….just a Viking and Twins fan who doesn’t like know it all reporters

by BigSkyViking on Jun 19, 2009 6:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Gonzo and Jesse

So now Gonzo the second wants to jump in? Who is Gonzo and Who is his Sequel? I will talk to anyone who thinks they know more than Gardy, just like that.

by BigSkyViking on Jun 19, 2009 6:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Calm down, nobody is calling anybody out here.

That’s fine if you want to stick up for Gardenhire. But no, I don’t think Gardenhire understands the game 100% of the time. When Joe Nathan is available in a close game and he isn’t used, to be that exhibits a lack of understanding. That’s an example. Not starting Carlos Gomez in center field when Denard Span isn’t available, that’s another example. But hey, that’s just me. Nobody is required to agree with me here.

Fair play: do you agree with every single decision that Gardenhire makes?

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gardy

There are reasons why Gardenhire does what he does—some of them are commented on, many others are not. Gardenhire, of course, knows more about how his players than we do. He plays to win the most games over the course of the year rather than winning at all costs today and burning someone out for next week and next month.

Sure, sometimes it appears that he is making a bonehead move, but probably there is a reason for the move. I don’t like some of the things he does, but he does have the most information about his team.

We have to remember what is said to the media is the message he wants to give, perhaps to light a fire under someone, perhaps to hold out a distress signal, maybe to send a message to the front office. This is the filtering of the truth that the manager has the privilege to have.

by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Jun 19, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Gary is, by and large, a good manager

But he makes some bone-headed moves.

Exhibit A. Nick Punto. This guy is a train wreck. Now, he’s playing well lately. But that has been his pattern. He’ll play well for month or two, and then he’ll get over confident and think he’s superman out there. So he becomes an instant train wreck. Through it all, Gardy has stuck with him. The mere fact that Gardy kept running him out there in the midst of the worst season in the history of the game for a third baseman (2007) speaks volumes.

Exhibit B: Juan Rincon: He brought Rincon into 12 close-and-late situations last year when everyone knew he didn’t have anything left. The only way to keep Gardy from doing that was to release Rincon.

Exhibit C: Jesse Crain. The exact thing happened with Crain. Two days before he had him optioned to AAA, he brought him into a tie game int he ninth inning. When asked about the demotion, Gardy said, “I’ve been thinking about this for a long time.” That wasn’t the only time he had used Crain in the previous two weeks in close games. Why the heck do you use him when Mijares—your primary set-up guy—is rested and available?

That’s just three of the many bonehead things Gardy has done. And don’t get me started on the playoffs. No manager is perfect. But when a guy repeatedly makes obvious mistakes, he is opeining himself up for criticism. To say he shouldn’t be criticized after all this is just homerism.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jun 19, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You know I like to be the contrarian

But there is another way to look at this. Which is—what the hell have Gardenhire and the coaching staff been doing? They’ve had these players in the majors (or mostly, in Casilla’s case) for a year and a half. They are, apparently, failing to get through to them in a way that helps them improve.

Isn’t that their job? If Gardenhire is this frustrated with them, isn’t that at least partly on him and his staff?

Look, I don’t know that I really buy what I just wrote, but…well, I kind of do. It seems to me clear that the manager and coaches job is to put players in situations to succeed, and to help bring out their best performance. Apparently, Gardenhire feels that there has been failure on that front. I agree.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 19, 2009 6:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think there's some merit to that.

I’m not sure where the line is between management’s responsibility to getting through to a player to get them around to the organization’s way of doing things, and a player’s responsibility to take things on board and more or less fall in line. But it’s an interesting idea.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

when i saw that piece in the Trib, I put alot of it on Gardy and his staff. You get thru to them, help them improve. Be wise enough to see what kind of player they can be and help them along the path to get there.

It was almost like Gardy told these guys in spring training a few things and expected them to find the way to go on there own, and now Gardy is just revisiting it now for the first time. I know that’s not how it was, but those quotes were extremely frustrating to me. Be a teacher and teach these young guys.

by ajmargarine on Jun 19, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is that why Tom Kelly retired?

Just wasn’t able to reach or didn’t want to help mentor a younger team, not that he hadn’t done it before, he just reach the point where he couldn’t do it again.

"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"

by maxisagod on Jun 19, 2009 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course it is.

If Gardenhire is this frustrated with them, isn’t that at least partly on him and his staff?

For sure. Then again, Gardenhire and staff (including Rick Anderson) have had quite a bit of success doing it their way, and teaching the game their way. Not to mention, the older people get, the more set in their ways, and the less flexible they become.

Problem is, when there is a problem, and there is a chance that people will start pointing the finger at you for that problem, self preservation provides the impetus to point your finger at the "other’ guy.

Having said that, it seems pretty clear Delmon is the one with the problem, not the Twins coaching staff, Gardenhire’s comments about Gomez really do seem to be accurate, and Casilla…well, who knows.

by montanatwinsfan on Jun 19, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes a manager makes comments to light a fire under a player

If Gardy’s comments get Gomez to stop swinging so hard and get on base more, good. If Gardy’s comments knock some sense into Delmon to stop swinging at first-pitch sliders out of the zone good. I think he’s given up on Casilla, so his comments there are more just throwing up his hands. But the guys he needs to improve just might improve with a public tongue lashing.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jun 20, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sometimes managers do make comments that they might hope light a fire under a player

but making those comments to reporters and fans under these circumstances is counterproductive.

These comments smack of frustration and self-preservation. Don’t get me wrong, from everything we fans have seen and heard, Gardenhire’s comments about Young and Gomez appear to be accurate – Casilla – like I said, who knows since we have no idea what Casilla said to elicit such a sweeping dismissal.

Management 101: Praise publically, discipline privately.

Young does not seem to be interested in learning from his coaches, calling him out publically for that (i.e. “shaming” him in front of the media and fans) is not going to repair that attitude. Such public humiliation for a gentleman who is so clearly stubborn, is far more likely to just harden his attitude against the coach who said it and the rest of his staff. In a business setting, if you as the manager want someone to trust you and adopt your plan, would you step into the middle of that staff’s set of cubicles and ridicule that staff in front of his peers? Ridiculous concept all around. Gardenhire’s comments toward Young are pure frustration and self-preservation; not a thoughtful tactic to create “improvement.”

Casilla: if East Coast Twin’s comments below are accurate, it sounds as if Casilla isn’t trying and isn’t hustling. THAT is the type of attitude that can be corrected (possibly) through a public calling out of the player. Failing to hustle, failing to concentrate, failing to take extra infield practice, failing to care enough to apply your talent; those things seem ripe for improvement through a good toungue lashing. But be careful, Cmath. Weren’t you one of the biggest critics of the Twins coaching staff when they publically called out Jason Kubel for his laissez-faire attitude several years ago?

Public remonstration is RARELY a smart tactic.

Gomez: If Gomez does not know what type of player he is at age 23 is that really all his fault? I don’t think so, I think it is more a product of being rushed through the minors and a failure of the coaching staff. Having said that, I don’t think Gardy’s comments are all that derogatory of Gomez. Nonetheless I don’t see any way they are meant to be “helpful” for Gomez. It does not appear that Gomez isn’t trying, its that he doesn’t quite “get it.” Again, calling him out for that publically isn’t going to help him “get it.” I think it is far more likely to just frustrate him and cause him to feel more pressure.

by montanatwinsfan on Jun 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

too many outfielders!

Last year, with Young, Gomez, and Span MN tied with Chicago for 1st place. I don’t think the outfielders have understood there roles this year if you add Cuddy & Koble to the mix. If they’re not ready send them to AAA, otherwise let them play. I think they average about 23 years of age. While Gardy has been a successful manager I don’t think his strength is managing a young core of players like this. The more they play the better they will get!

by justintime on Jun 19, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dufuss Reporters

Gardy has forgot more about Baseball than everyone on this blog could begin to know. Just because you don’t understand his reasons, doesn’t mean he don’t understand the game. Not that it works out the way he wants it to every time, but to say He doesn’t understand the Game is retarded.

by BigSkyViking on Jun 19, 2009 7:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Great.

Thanks for your input, and welcome to the blog. We look forward to hearing more intelligent analysis as the season progresses.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Twins managers

I’m sure someone can check this out, but when was the last manager MN hired from outside their system? In general it may be a good thing to hire a manager from within there system. Now i’m not suggesting getting rid of Gardy..but he won’t manage forever. Having said that, I think its occasionally healthy to go outside the system and bring in some new thinking and blood. Otherwise, it can become, for a lack of a better word, somewhat of an incestuous situation.

by justintime on Jun 19, 2009 7:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

It's organizational philosophy to stay within the team.

This goes for the front office as well as on-field management. The last manager who wasn’t an in-house guy was Ray Miller, who managed the team for about 14 months between June of ’85 and September of ’86.

Fresh blood is always a good idea, and I don’t think the Twins are opposed to this, but they do have an organizational philosophy that they instill in their employees from top to bottom. First cracks at front-seat and visible positions will likely continue to go to in-house candidates.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

that didn't work out with Miller

well, its been over 20 years, perhaps time to go outside system again!

by justintime on Jun 19, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fresh Blood

I think bringing in some fresh blood in some capacity is important, and I think the Twins having totally not done that is why you see them lagging behind in some specific areas. They still scout very well, but this team hasn’t had an original idea in quite awhile. Unless you have leaders who are incredibly open to cutting edge ideas, you are going to stagnate eventually.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Jun 19, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree

I’ve made this argument before. It’s too easy to get stale and set in your ways when you don’t challenge yourself with new ideas.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 19, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Manny Acta...

IF/WHEN the Nationals fire Manny Acta, I would like the Twins to think seriously of finding him a place on the staff. IF only for a Latin soundingboard, as some of their promising prospects and young players.

Acta has also been saddled with arguably the worst ownership and front office in baseball.

Regards,

I don't suffer from insanity...I relish every moment of it!

by the Dragon on Jun 20, 2009 8:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, great

Did we get advertised over on startrib.com or something?

Anyways, so yeah, Carlos Gomez is just sort way overexcited, Delmon doesn’t really DO anything, and who knows WTF is going on with Casilla. I say one of these problems is coaching, one is the player, and one is in between.

With Young, he REFUSES to let anyone help him, outright refuses. He has some swing problems he could fix that would improve his game right there, before he ever talks about improving his terrible approach. What can the coaches then do? I wish they would take a more draconian stance on Young, we’ll have to wait for our other 4 OF’rs to be healthy then we can see if Gardy will smack down the law on Young more.

With Gomez, it’s sorta’ inbetween. He’s a crazy kid who is a bit delusional about thing, but he is ernest in trying to improve and he works with the coaches. I think the coaches are telling him the right thing. He just can’t get it into his head exactly what he needs to be right now. He’s a guy everyone just had to keep working with and wait until he suddenly clicks in his head (hopefully, that’s my optometrist theory)

With Casilla, who seems lost and is regressing, I blame coaching. Not just Gardy, but the whole staff in ML and AAA. This guy has some talent and a bit of a track record, but he he’s apparantly so clueless with what’s going on. He’s a young guy, he’s supposed to be getting help with that from the coaches. Unless there is something we don’t know about him, like he’s lazy or hardheaded, I would wonder what the heck the coaches haven’t been doing to help him.

Young guys have never been Gardy’s strength at all, it’s a pretty dangerous situation right now for all their developments.

by AdamOnFirst on Jun 19, 2009 7:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What Casilla said...

The one thing I heard was that he was arguing with Gardy that he shouldn’t be the guy to get sent down (the 2nd time). So he might have said he was better than Tolbert. Or he wasn’t understanding the authority structure of mgr/player. Or he was thinking he performed better than he actually did. Or maybe something else, heh.

by ajmargarine on Jun 19, 2009 7:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

does Gardy speak Spanish?

by justintime on Jun 19, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I don't know...

…but from what Gardy says, it sure sounds like he thinks that Casilla was out of line.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gardy speaks 12 languages and sleeps 2 hours a week and eats bullets for breakfast

by ajmargarine on Jun 19, 2009 7:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Huh.

Sounds like Mike Redmond.

by Jesse on Jun 19, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Communication!

If the manager is frustrated in not getting thru to the player; and the player is frustrated in not understanding what is required of him, that’s pure and simple a lack of good communication. The consequences are the Manager becomes frustrated and the player underperforms.

by justintime on Jun 19, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

The more I think about this

the more I blame Gardy and his staff. We’re not talking about taking a hitter like David Ortiz and turning him into a pansy with the “Twins way” of doing things. We’re talking about guys who are right now AAA players who are fundamentally unsound playing at the major league level. Get thru to them and teach them!

by ajmargarine on Jun 19, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

What do these young guys have in common?

They were all acquired from other organizations. I think that is especially significant with Young an Gomez. I don’t want to go all warm and fuzzy over the “Twins’ way”, but they do drill their minor league teams on fundamentals.

BTW, Casilla is hitting .344 at Rochester. Will the Twins give him one more chance this year?

by Alexi Casilla All-Star on Jun 19, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think they’ll keep him down for awhile. Barring an injury to one of our middle IF’s.

by ajmargarine on Jun 19, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Casilla

I was at a Rochester game last month where Casilla was walking to the dugout (third base side) after striking out, not noticing that the catcher had dropped the ball. When the catcher went over to tag him, Casilla actually starting running towards the dugout to avoid the tag.

It does make one wonder where his head is.

by East Coast Twin on Jun 20, 2009 6:28 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Did the Strib boards barf?

Gardenhire’s call-outs are so tiresome. Q: Cuddyer makes a stupid baserunning play against the Pirates — one I was happy about on two counts (viz., I loathe Cuddyer, while the Pirates are my favorite team and I was attending with my Pittsburgh-born-and-bred Mom) — and what does Prof. Gardenhire say about it? A: He criticizes Young for hitting the come-backer and says nothing about His Buddy Cuddy. Meanwhile Harris drops a throw at second — a random physical error of the sort that just happens from time to time — and gets called out BY NAME. Maybe Punto will be so bad for the rest of the year he’ll get released, contract be damned. Maybe Cuddyer will post good enough offensive numbers that he and his have-some-extra-runs-I’ve-got-plenty-to-give no-range defense in right can be traded for good value. Tolbert… well, I probably don’t have to wish on that count. Then Gardenhire can, suddenly bereft of his favorite campers, retire in frustration to work on his freaking muscle cars (I do so love hearing about the Prof.’s always cerebral pastimes).

Montana’s post and his cubicle analogy is a great one. The coaching staff is getting paid to COACH. Ripping players in the media — particularly young ones — isn’t coaching. It’s setting yourself up as the infallible leader who’d be successful but for want of the right soldiers, and it seems at least as likely to exacerbate those players’ problems (and any real difficultly the coaches have coaching them) as to magically correct them.

Ryan Braun is such a tool. (watching detroit-milwaukee)

by tobynotjason on Jun 20, 2009 4:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs