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Joe Benson or Ben Revere?


The question came up In Roger's July 11 Minor League Report thread: Who is more valuable, Joe Benson or Ben Revere? This blog ranked Revere the number 2 prospect in the system prior to the season, whereas Benson was rated number 26. But Benson has turned a corner of sorts and is finally showing fans why he was a highly touted prospect when he was drafted in the second round in 2006. And Revere is starting to show folks why he was not as highly touted despite his draft position. So the question is now legitimate.

The answer to the question might surprise you. Revere is a very good contact hitter who can run, but his power is lacking. And, though fast, his stolen base percentage is alarmingly low. If he makes it to the majors, with his lack of power, he'll have a center fielder's bat in the mold of Juan Pierre. And his arm is not great for a center fielder by any stretch. By contrast, Benson has some power and a strong arm to go along with his speed. While not quite as fast as Revere, he's plenty fast enough to play center. Yet, he has enough power to play on the corners as well.

The other thing that might surprise you is their relative ages. Though Benson was drafted a year prior to Revere, they're both 21 years old. Neither is young for the Florida State League. On the surface, it's really close. It seems we need a deeper analysis of their relative merits to come up with a sound projection, which we will get to after the break.

Star-divide

Numbers

Benson's rate stats (.298/.429/.443) are better this year than Revere's (.308/.372/.377). I have to wonder what they would look like had Benson not punched the wall in the clubhouse, causing him to miss six weeks of the season. That leaves Benson with only 168 plate appearances to Revere's 374. On that basis, numbers alone are a poor judge of this. But it's worth looking at the numbers just to form a picture of how these very different players approach the game. That might help us make a more accurate projection.

The first thing to note is their walk rates. Revere (7.5%) is more of a hacker than Benson (14.6%), thus Revere's OBP is not stellar despite a good batting average. But Revere (7.3%) does not strike out as often as Benson (23.6%). The picture that emerges from those two sets of numbers is a radically different approach. Revere swings a lot and makes good contact when he does. He probably doesn't let the count get to two strikes very often. Benson is more patient, but he is often caught looking or swinging and missing with two strikes. Of the two approaches, Benson's projects better as competition improves.

The other thing to note is their BABIPs. Revere's has been abnormally high throughout his minor league career, averaging about 30 points better than his BA (2007--.363/2008--.414/2009--.331). If his LD% were higher, I would feel more comfortable with the numbers. But it's just average (around 15%). So he's getting a lot of ground ball hits (on 60% ground balls) that will be harder to come by as fielders improve with the competition. Benson, also has a high BABIP (2007--.347/2008--.331/2009--400). But his LD% is above average (19% this year) and so his his GB% (under 50% the last two years). It's pretty close, and sample sizes are a big caveat, but Benson projects better as competition improves.

The other thing I look at is isolated power, and here, Benson is the clear favorite. This is the first year it has shown up in his SLG because of his low batting average in past years.  Revere gave us hope after last year (.496 SLG) that he would outslug his draft projection. And Benson's SLG was nothing special prior to this year (.380 in 2008). But Benon's ISO is consistently in the .130 range, and this year it has jumped to .150. By contrast, Revere's is quite low this year (.069) and has fallen every year since his debut as a 19 year old in an 18 year old's league. That ISO number is a red flag for Revere.

Finally, there's the speed question. And here, Revere is the favorite. This year, Revere's right on pace to steal more than 40 bases. But he's also on pace to get caught more than 20 times. Benson hasn't run much (7 steals in 10 attempts), but some of that is just opportunity. When you're out half the season, you won't have as many opportunities. Looking beyond this year, Benson has not had as much success as Revere. Last year in Beloit, Benson stole 17 bases in 28 tries. Revere stole 44 bases in 57 tries. SB% is one area where I expect both players to improve as they learn to read pitchers and their coaches pay more attention to how fast a pitcher is to home plate.

Tools

The numbers don't tell the whole story, of course. Revere's having his worst season as a professional and Benson is having his best. So you would expect some movement to the mean for both players. Just how their careers go in the future is dependant on their mix of tools. The five tools I will rate them on (based on scouting reports I have read), are speed, power, contact, batting eye and arm.

  • Speed: As I have said, Revere has plus plus speed and Benson has plus speed. Both have major league speed as a tool in their arsenal.
  • Power: I would not rate Benson's power as a plus. But I would list it among his tools. Power is not one of Revere's tools.
  • Batting eye: Benson strikes out too much to list this as a tool for him, though I do like his patience. Revere seems to have a good eye based on his K/BB rate (slightly under water). But he's not a patient hitter, I would still say this is a tool for him. This is not a plus tool for either player.
  • Contact: Revere has plus contact skills. He can put the ball in play and advance runners, and he uses the whole field. Benson is not a good contact guy, so I would not list this among his tools.
  • Arm:  Revere projects to have a left fielder's arm (think Shannon Stewart). Benson's arm is a plus tool for him.

Overall, both players have three tools. But I would say Benson has a more balanced set of tools.

 

Projection

Neither player projects as a star, though I would not be surprised to see both starting somewhere in the majors in four years. Revere has the better chance at stardom based on how casual fans evaluate players. Pierre (.318/.377/.404 with 23 SBs in 31 attempts), for example, is more celebrated than Matt Kemp (.315/.378/.486 with 19 SBs in 24 attempts) in LA. The Twins would be thrilled if either player put up a line like those in four years. A more conservative line would be something like Revere's (.315/.360/.380 with 20 steals in 30 attempts) or Benson's (.260/.360/.440 with 12 steals in 20 attempts). Of the two, Benson projects as a better overall player with more defensive versatility. So he should be rated slightly higher than Revere.

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Should add some analysis about the "types" of hitters

Comparing these two against each other may not be particularly relevant when all is said and done. Revere projects to be a top of the lineup guy. HIs on base percentage, despite his lack of walks, projects to be high. His ability to steal bases and get on base is extremely useful if you see him as a Denard Span type guy.

Benson on the other hand….I think it is awfully convenient to look just at his stats from this year. He doesn’t have a lot of at bats yet. So it is a small…very favorable sample size. In nearly 900 at bats in low level A ball, Benson had an OPS of approximately .710
That is hardly a number to be excited about. And..even this year, Benson is still striking out nearly 30% of his at bats, right about where he has been the last two years. Your point about BABIP was lost on me. Benson’s BABIP is nearly 100 points higher than his batting avg. Benson is walking at a much higher rate this year…but again, a small sample size. Given his extremely high BABIP, and low number of at bats…I would say let’s ride this out a bit. Benson may not be quite as good as you are projecting.

And, then there is the point. What “type” of player would Benson have to be to make the lineup and be effective at the MLB level? We know what we would get from Revere. He is not a power guy, but rather a lead off or number 2 in the order guy. If we need that kind of guy, then Revere will be useful. if we don’t need that kind of guy, then we will likely trade Revere…..But with Benson…if he bats like he did in his last 1100 minor league at bats, he is a .260 hitter, who strikes out a lot, has limited power and has stolen bases at a 60% success rate, which many studies have shown is more of a detriment than a positive offensively.

I think you have assumed a lot in your projections. You assume Benson has turned the corner and will continue to improve or at least do what he is doing this year. I am substantially less confident that this will actually be the case…but let’s hope you are right. Because if Benson can hit in the .280 range with more power and continue to draw walks…then we have a very good player on our hands. He is not Gomez in the outfield, but he is still very …very solid out there, much better than Cuddyer or Delmon Young…so who knows…

Also, one minor (or perhaps major) point. Revere has played with very nagging leg injuries in each of the last two years. For a speed guy, that is more than just a nuisance. Now..if he is chronically injured, then that hurts his long term projections. But if he can get past these nagging injuries and play to his fullest potential, he may be more like the player he was last year. Time will tell.

by NorthDakotaTwinsFan on Jul 19, 2009 1:45 PM EDT reply actions  

No

This is not even a close question… Revere is the better prospect by a mile. Benson has a very good raw power/speed combination but Revere is a freak athlete with great natural hitting ability. Benson’s “improvement” is mostly due to his unsustainable .400 BABIP, though he is walking more.

Every team in the Majors would choose Revere over Benson at this point, if given a pick.

by drivlikejehu on Jul 19, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm the one that brought this up originally

and I agree that it’s hard to elevate Benson based on limited PAs. But I do think his peripheral skills are interesting, and I’ve never been as high on Revere as others.

I like Revere to make the majors, certainly, but guys with as little power as he’s shown have a tough time. He won’t walk much, and so he’ll have to hit .320 to be valuable as a regular. He might be able to do that, we’ll see. He seems more likely to me to be an extra outfielder type.

Benson might never make it. The difficulty making contact could really hurt him at higher levels. But he also might have the power/speed to play. He’s having a vaguely similar year to Mike Cuddyer’s season in Fort Myers, though Cuddyer was a year younger.

by Eric in Madison on Jul 19, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Revere is a better Span

Span never showed any hints of power in the minors either but here he is in the big leagues smacking 5-10 a year. Revere is a speed guy, top of the order type material. He gets on base, steals bases, scores runs. When he was drafted by the Twins, they weren’t looking for 15-20 HR out of this kid. They knew what they were drafting.

Why will he have to hit .320 to be successful? If Revere can put the ball in play, and get on base at a 30% clip, that sounds successful to me. The fact that Revere rarely strikes out is a good sign. If he doesnt walk, thats alright but at least he is putting the ball in play. You put the ball in play, you have the best chance at getting on base.

by BCTwins on Jul 19, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

A .300 OBP won't cut it without power

He’d have to be close to .400 OBP with his power.

I wouldn’t compare him to Span. Span is 6-2 200. Revere is 5-8 160. If he was stocky like Kirby I could see power coming. But he’s a skinny kid. He might develop a better than 0.69 ISO, but he will have to put oon some muscle to have Span’s power.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 19, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

but did Span have power in the minors

no! Span just developed power in the majors. Heck, Mauer is just developing power! Revere is still young and will add muscle and weight as he progresses through the system. Casilla had power once he was in the majors last spring. I could name a lot of major league ball players who are now “power” hitters that only hit out about 5 a year in the minors.

by BCTwins on Jul 19, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really

But Span was not very good in the minors at all. Most guys who are not very good in the minors are not very good in the majors. Span is one of the few exceptions. All we have to go on is numbers and scouting reports. Based on Revere’s numbers, he might be as good as Span. I would be surprised if he’s better.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 19, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Before I wrote this, I never would have thought I'd come to that conclusion

But the more I looked at the numbers, the more I realized that Revere is the kind of guy who is overhyped because he hits for a high average. Yes, he flirted with 400 last year. But he also had a BABIP over 400.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 19, 2009 3:36 PM EDT reply actions  

I'm with you...

I probably won’t rank Benson above Revere, but after reading this, Benson would have to come way up. The power. The ability to actually get on base and take some pitches. Both are at Ft. Myers. Benson isn’t much older. Revere may be more of a natural ‘hitter’, but tools say Benson…

by SethSpeaks on Jul 19, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Revere is still more valuable than Joe Benson.

Ben Revere LD % was so good last year that it was almost flukely Ben Revere doens’t get ‘lucky’ when he gets hits, Ben rarely sees texas league singles or little bloopers that fall in for a hit. Ben Revere flat out earns his .300 + Batting Average

Joe Benson doesn’t make contact at a rate similar to Ben Revere does yet, IMO Revere because of his speed still is a greater asset to the Twins because of the way we play baseball.

I don’t see Benson turning into a Grady Sizemore or Matt Holliday type of player.

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 19, 2009 6:06 PM EDT reply actions  

Nope

“Of the two approaches, Benson’s projects better as competition improves.”

This is demonstrably false. Ability to make contact at lower levels is critical. The control gets better for the pitchers so taking a walk gets more difficult. Ability to make contact is a skill that correlates well to pitch recognition and means it is less likely there is a hole in your swing to exploit. Guys who make good contact can typically learn how to coax a walk by fouling off pitches. Guys who have a hole in their swing get struck out by major league pitchers.

Looking at Revere at the time he has to make his 1st adjustments vs the best streak Joe Benson has ever shown us is not a good set of data for comparison. If you look at the larger body of data Revere looks better. I am impressed by the step forward from Benson though. He looks like the guy they hoped they were getting when he was drafted.

by DJL44 on Jul 19, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions  

That is a question, isn't it?

It would make for an interesting study. I just think of Delmon Young. The more he advanced, the fewer strikes he would see and the more he got himself out on pitchers’ pitches.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 20, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I know I am late responding to this CMath...

…but I plugged their numbers into my formula. Revere graded out at 101.579 which is excellent. Benson graded out at 95.440 which is a 31 point improvement from last year and would move him up towards the top 10-15.

Now looking more closely, Benson is hurt in my formula by having only 128 at bats. With 339 at bats, Revere had 8 points more than Benson in that category. Eliminating it from the formula would mean that Benson is actually 2 points ahead of Revere. Considering that the Twins knew he hadn’t played a lot of baseball before they signed him, how much his injuries last year affected his progress and the improvement he has made this year……..I am of the opinion that Benson may end up as the better player several years in the future.

by roger13 on Jul 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

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