How to Best Evaluate Minor-League Prospects
This isn't intended to be a shameless self-plug, but some of you may have seen the Top 15 Prospects list I compiled roughly a year ago at my site, TwinsFix.com. I largely stayed away from statistics and past performance and took a basic mathimatical approach, assigning values based on two factors: ceiling and chance of making the majors.
I made many mistakes in that ranking, and I intend to have you help me iron them out. :-)
Here is the simple formula I used last year:
(X (1.50) + Y (1.00))
X = Ceiling (I attached a value ranging from 110 to 40. Not entirely sure how I chose that range...)
Highest Ceiling
- Aaron Hicks, 110
- Deolis Guerra, 105
- Angel Morales, 100
- Ben Revere, 95
- Tyler Robertson, 90
- Shooter Hunt, 85
- Danny Valencia, 80
- Anthony Swazark, 75
- Wilson Ramos, 70
- Jeff Manship, 65
- Mike McCardell, 60
- Carlos Gutierrez, 55
- Joe Benson, 50
- Tyler Ladendorf, 45
- Brian Dinkelman, 40
Y = Chance of making majors (50 points for AAA, 40 for AA, 30 for Hi-A, 25 for A, 20 for E-Town, and 15 for GCL. Also, 40 for 1st round pick, 20 for 2nd, 15 for 3rd, 10 for 4th-12th, 5 for 13th-20th, and 0 for anything lower. Also, an added 20 points if their signing bonus was anything over $1 million.
Highest Chance of Making it to the Majors
- Trevor Plouffe, 110
- Carlos Gutierrez, 90
- Ben Revere, 85
- Aaron Hicks, 70
- Anthony Swazark, 70
- Kevin Mulvey, 70
- Luke Hughes, 50
- Danny Valencia, 45
- Tyler Robertson, 45
- Chris Parmelee, 45
- Angel Morales, 35
- Jeff Manship, 35
- Wilson Ramos, 30
- Deolis Guerra, 30
- Rene Tosoni, 30
- Shooter Hunt, 80
- Brian Dinkelman, 50
- Joe Benson, 45
- Tyler Ladendorf, 40
- Mike McCardell, 35
My Top Fifteen Twins Prospects
- Aaron Hicks, 235
- Ben Revere, 227.5
- Shooter Hunt, 207.5
- Deolis Guerra, 187.5
- Angel Morales, 185
- Anthony Swazark, 182.5
- Tyler Robertson, 180
- Carlos Gutierrez, 172.5
- Danny Valencia, 165
- Trevor Plouffe, 162.5
- Wilson Ramos, 135
- Jeff Manship, 132.5
- Mike McCardell, 125
- Kevin Mulvey, 122.5
- Joe Benson, 120
Any idea how to change those into equation form?
0 recs |
36 comments
Comments
Based on the fact that Mulvey and Swarzak made the majors, I think that your Y ranking on them is a tad low :)
by thrylos98 on Jul 21, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I'll be the first to admit that those rankings were off. ;-)
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by Andersklasen on Jul 21, 2009 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
really...
this is very good. I suspect that if you give people who made it to the majors an arbitrary 150 or so for Y, it might work… Another think is that there are some lower round picks who are very good prospects (Kubel comes to mind) but would not have much chance with this formula…
by thrylos98 on Jul 21, 2009 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And another thing...
the Y does not take into account International Free Agent signees, which is a big downfall to this.
by thrylos98 on Jul 21, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best way to evaluate minor league prospects...
…is to watch them play.
Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.
by Johnny Safron on Jul 22, 2009 12:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Let me rephrase that...
The best way to RATE and RANK minor-league talent.
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by Andersklasen on Jul 22, 2009 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's with all the ridiculous stats and formula's?????????
I agree with Johnny Safron. It seems that so many of the people on these blogs have never played or watched a real baseball game ever. If you look on a scouts paperwork you are going to have radar readings, box score, a few stats. Most of it is notes though. That’s why scouts make the big bucks and are hired by major league teams to evaluate talent. It’s the ability to watch a player play!!! The way he works the count, the ability to perform under pressure, how he is with teamates, if he quits when his team has a big lead, mechanics. These are things you can’t put into stats. That’s why so many teams live and die by scouting. Look at the Pirates. So many high first round picks over the years but how many have panned out? Few. Nolan Ryan, argueablly the best pitcher of all time was drafted in the 12th round. Albert Pujols, one of the greatest hitters of this era was drafted in the 13th round. Why, because the scouts who watched and signed them had the rare intangible to really see the talent that would become future hall of famers. As for your projection system. It’s cute and all, but If you really want to make a legitimate prospect ranking system go watch these guys play the game in real life. not on a stats sheet.
by minnesota_tWINS on Jul 25, 2009 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've read on this blog yet,
Nolan Ryan, argueablly the best pitcher of all time was drafted in the 12th round. Albert Pujols, one of the greatest hitters of this era was drafted in the 13th round. Why, because the scouts who watched and signed them had the rare intangible to really see the talent that would become future hall of famers.
First of all I don’t know how a “scout” has a “rare intangible” but more importantly, if I am a scout, and I see talent that will “become [a] future hall of famers” I think I might draft that player in the first round. Maybe the second round. Probably wouldn’t risk waiting through until my team’s cahnace came up in the third round. By the fourth round I’d probably be shitting my pants in fear that some other “scout” had “the intangibles” to see that these guys had “hall of fame” talent. By the fifth round I would start wondering why no one else saw this magnificant talent. By the sixth round I would consider starting my own “psychis hotline” business because clearly I am a superior scout who can see things that no other professional scout can…
Then we let that hall of fame talent slide all the way until the 12th or 13th round. Phew! I’ve got balls the size of a supercollider!
by montanatwinsfan on Jul 25, 2009 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry for not putting it in understandable terms
maybe I did’nt phrase this right so I will have to just be blunt. This is such a riduculous system!!! This is a good way of going about it if you have never played a baseball game or have never seen actual major league quality talent play. I get a kick how most of you over analyze everything with these funky stats and projections. This guy has an EIZ of .837 and that guy has a WHIP/HR/OB% after the first saturday of the last 3 months every leap year.???? I myself have played baseball at a very high level for the last 4 years. What I am trying to say once again even after my tongue lashing from montanatwinsfan. Anyone who has seen quality players PLAY the game will know who has potential and who does’nt. I will leave it at that, and let the backlash begin!!!
by minnesota_tWINS on Jul 26, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ever read "Moneyball"?
If not, do it.
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by Andersklasen on Jul 26, 2009 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before you run to the library...
Just remember that the author (Billy Beane, GM of the A’s) who came up with all these funky stats and ideas (ex. the only important pitching stats are walks, K’s, and HR’s allowed) hasn’t exactly been putting together great teams lately.
by Sheldon on Jul 27, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corrections and a note
- Bean didn’t write the book, he was it’s main subject. It was written by Michael Lewis.
- The book was partly fiction. Bean didn’t do a lot of the stuff in the book.
- Bean didn’t come up with any of the statistical methods he uses. He was just one of the first GMs to use them. All GMs use them now. He just uses them almost exclusively, whereas other organizations look more at tools and upside.
Now that he has done this for almost a decade and he has one of the weakest systems in baseball, I think we can pronounce it a failure. You have to look at tools and upside in your talent evaluations. You have to draft some high school players. You have to rely heavily on scouting. The numbers are just more important than a lot of organizations have claimed. Boston is a good model of this balance.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 27, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hang on
The A’s have probably the second best farm system in baseball.
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by fetch9 on Jul 29, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wasn't my understanding
I’ll have to double check
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 29, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No frankly, you are wrong.
But there is no need for a backlash if you would just slow down your hypercriticality of things you dont understand.
I can’t assess minor league talent let alone major league talent. I played college hockey. Never played baseball. Don’t watch the games, prefer to listen on the radio so I can putz around in my garage, play with my daughter, or some nights get extra work in when she is asleep early. John Gordon hasn’t yet taught me how be a “all-world scout” like you. Can’t tell you if Justin Morneau has a better swing than Michael Cuddyer.
Can tell you his OPS is quite a bit better. Can tell you his UZR, RF, and SLG percentages are better. Can look at the numbers over the past five years and tell you Justin Morneau is a better 1st baseman than Michael Cuddyer is a RF, based on the numbers.
I’m not a mathmetician or a stats guy. In fact I have a lot of trouble understanding stats. So there was a lot of time spent here not understanding what other posters were saying. But instead of being a critical asshole, I took the time to pay attention and learn.
Stats and numbers won’t keep you from enjoying the game unless you let them. If you dont want to take the time to understand them, fine. Please continue to grace us with your keen eye and your ability to judge players without numbers. But keep your self-righteous attitude to yourself until you get a better understanding of other humans … case in point:
sorry for not putting it in understandable terms maybe I did’nt phrase this right so I will have to just be blunt. This is such a riduculous system!!! This is a good way of going about it if you have never played a baseball game or have never seen actual major league quality talent play.
Can’t speak directly for Andersklasen, but I for one have never watched a minor league game, and probably never will. I catch a handfull of pro games on t.v. I suspect that most of us dont live in beloit, rochester, or any other minor league city. I also suspect that most of us have neither the money, nor the inclination to take vacations to those cities to watch those minor league talents play.
But we have computers, newspapers … and brains, (those can be helpful, try it yourself sometime and see) and a desire to assess future players because its part of the fun of being a fan.
by montanatwinsfan on Jul 26, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have been to one minor-league game in my life.
And I wasn’t furiously scribbling in a notebook about a player’s “rare intangible.” I watched Tim Raines make super defensive plays from the Tucson Sidewinder’s outfield, but his 96/26 K/BB ratio makes me wonder about his status as a “future hall of famer.”
Color me crazy, but these stats that you abhor are quite useful for those who can’t get to the game. They tell the story of the game in any time-frame that you want: monthly, yearly, weekly, or even inning-by-inning.
Sure, statistics can’t measure leadership abilities or personality traits. I’d put more weight on their ability to throw a 93-mph slider consistently in two-strike counts against right-handed batters, or their ability to take pitches with two runners on and a wild pitcher on the mound in the 7th inning or later in tied games. Statistics can find those kind of things out, and that is what makes a “hall of famer.”
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by Andersklasen on Jul 26, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with your numners is they're arbitrary
For example, you rank players on their ceiling without grounding that in fact. How do you come up with your ceiling number? Same with the chance of making the majors. It is grounded in something—the level at which a player is playing—but there seem to be all kinds of subjective valuations in how you assign that number. For example, Aaron Hicks was rated very highlyand hadn’t yet played A ball.
I rank players on the following five criteria:
- Tools (as assessed by BA and others)
- Numbers (weighting for leagues and levels)
- Defense (this is mostly from scouting reports, but factors in versatility and quality at a position)
- Age (the younger the better)
- Consistency (E.g. Danny Valencia gets a boost because he has never had a down year)
From those criteria, you could then draw conclusions about upside and likelihood of making it to the majors, or likelihood of being a role play vs. a starter, etc. But you don’t start with upside and projection. You start with the objective measures that allow you to draw those conclusions.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 22, 2009 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Like I said, I'm not entirely sure how I chose that range...
I threw this together at the last minute and now realize how awful it was. If I start working something out now, maybe I can make it better.
Thanks for the help!
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by Andersklasen on Jul 22, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me see if I understand.
The numbers you have started with are created not only from an arbitrary range 40-110? but from a subjective decision by you as to which player gets what number. Why, for instance does Hicks get a 110 on your x axis, and Guerra gets a 105? Arbitrary based on the fact that you like Hicks better and “believe” he has a higher ceiling. Right?
Or why does AAA garner more value than A? Arbitrary again because that distinction would be exactly reverse if the AAA baller is 36 years old and the A baller is 18. Wouldn’t we all agree that the 18 year old in “A” has a better shot at making the majors than the 36 year old in “AAA”?
20 points if their signing bonus was over $1 milllion? Doesn’t that unfairly penalize players signed four years ago, and unfairly reward players signed this year, or players who have an aggressive agent?
Under the scenario you are setting up it doesn’t matter how many numbers or stats or “axes” you create if none of them are rooted in objective fact BEFORE you add the subjectivity. It all just ends up being subjectivity on top of more subjectivity.
That level of subjectivity creates more opportunity for bias. And the “objective facts” you choose to value creates another layer of subjectivity and another way for bias to creep in. So the most pertinent “facts” related to the proposed question, or hypothesis are the "facts’ you should start with first.
Example (with a shoutout to fischean)- Justin Timberlake is a better actor than Brad Pitt because:
he has blue eyes;
girls generally think he is more dreamier;
he has a larger fan base;
he makes more money;
he has been cast as a lead in more movies;
he has more Oscar nominations
he has won more Oscars
As we go further down the list we start to find criteria which are more objectively identifiable and are more pertinent to the ultimate hypothesis: Justin Timberlake is a better actor than Brad Pitt .
If you start with the first few factors and begin your analysis with those you are likely to have created major flaws through personal bias that cannot be corrected even after you try and factor in the last few "objective’ factors. By then, you are more inclined to throw out, or discount, the “objective” factors because you have already created an inertia for liking Justin Timberlake.
Instead start with the objective factors. Then you can start layering in the subjective factors in a more “honest” fashion: Brad Pitt has more nominations and major awards and better roles more often, but damnit I think Justin Timberlake is dreamier and has bluer eyes to boot! Therefore, I will rank Justin one level above Brad.
People know where you are coming from and you can defend your decisions better.
by montanatwinsfan on Jul 22, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the methodology..
or at least where you’re trying to go with it, but Shooter Hunt shouldn’t sniff the top 5
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by fetch9 on Jul 22, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Explain to me why
Guerra has that high of a ceiling?
he throws in the mid 80’s he doesn’t have any good offspeed stuff and he’s repeating high A ball for the 3rd time.
Just because BA says so doesn’t mean it is.
1941 .406
by FrozenTed9 on Jul 22, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Back up into the low 90s with sink and a plus change
20 years old in AA
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 22, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
7 IP, 0 R, 1 BB, 12 K tonight for the Rock Cats.
As a reader said somewhere, “sometimes a warrantless promotion is exactly what the doctor ordered.”
Just look at Swarzak.
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by Andersklasen on Jul 24, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know how warrantless it was
Three plus years in high A ball is a long time. He was working on his mechanics. When he started to pitch consistently in the low 90s, they promoted him.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 24, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, whatever the case was here's hoping he gets back on track.
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by Andersklasen on Jul 24, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anderslaken, I like your top 15 but I'd counter with:
1. Aaron Hicks
2. Ben Revere
3. Wilson Ramos
4. Danny Valencia
5. David Bromberg
6. Joe Benson
7. Carlos Gutierrez
8. Rene Tosoni
9. Chris Parmelee
10. Bradley Tippett
11. Jeff Manship
12. Kevin Mulvey
13. Steven Tolleson
14. Danny Rams
15. (Kyle Gibson, Anthony Slama)
I left out Swarzak because of the PT in the Majors he is getting and will likely get the rest of this year.
Angel Morales should be on there somewhere, but I guess I’m just that disappointed with his season this year, I guess I should have almost expected it with those K rates.
a lot of the pitchers that are in AA right now too McCardell, Burnett, Guerra and eventually Robertson all deserve consideration with Guerra probably the most so.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 23, 2009 2:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gibson
If Gibson signs, he’s a top 5 guy easy.
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by fetch9 on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
I’d agree, I guess Because of the Fact I’m getting a little worried he Won’t Sign (Just like Blake Dean)
I put him down a lot lower because of that.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 23, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As you can see from my list
I think he will sign. He’s the highest rated player the Twins have drafted since Joe Mauer. They’ll sign him, even if it means going off slot.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 23, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Assuming he’s healthy of course.
And yeah, I’m worried about Dean too.
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by fetch9 on Jul 23, 2009 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My list right now
1. Valencia
2. Gibson
3. Hicks
4. Ramos
5. Gutierrez
6. Tosoni
7. Benson
8. Revere
9. Parmelee
10. Guerra
11. A. Morales
12. Robertson
13. Robbins
14. Portes
15. Ladendorf/Rams (tie)
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 23, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I generally agree with most of this...
but I fail to see why Gutierrez is so high on people’s lists. He’s got terrible peripherals this year (50/40 K/BB ratio) between A+ and AA ball, plus it’s uncertain if he can be a starter. He’s got one good/great pitch and that’s about it.
by Mike I on Jul 25, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's just pitching to get innings in
The first year back as a starter can take a toll. THey just need him to get his 120 innings or so however he gets them. Next year will be the breakout year for him. I rate him mostly on tools. He has the best sinker in the minors.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Oooo I hope you’re right
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 26, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people are undervaluning Alex Burnett
If he stays a Relief pitcher, He may be the best Relief pitcher in our minor leagues RIGHT NOW that can help us out at the Big League level in 2009, this year.
Maybe Not Delaney, and certainly not Slama IMO.
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 26, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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