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"As far as I'm concerned, Hank Aaron is the all-time home run champ, and Roger Maris should still have the [single-season] record at 61, but Barry Bonds is the name you see in the record book."

almost 3 years ago Twinkietown_tiny Jesse 27 comments 0 recs  | 

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Anyone seen Bigger, Faster, Stronger?

You can watch it instantly on Netflix, and I just did a few days ago. I thought it was an excellent documentary, with a balanced look at performance enhancing drugs in sports.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 23, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Check the date... June 23, 1969

Seems to me that its MLB’s own fault for letting this go on for so long. McGwire admitted to using Andro in the middle of the 1998 season and within a week it was old news. “Everyone knew” Bonds was using… there was leaked testimony, numerous tell-all books… and yet baseball just let him keep going out there and hitting homers.

So, if MLB doesn’t enforce their own rules, they deserve the record book that they have.

by DavidRF on Jul 23, 2009 4:09 PM EDT reply actions  

Baseball is a closed society

“He really hasn’t been here for years. For me, this is kind of a meaningless story. To me and everyone else around here. He didn’t take the ones that make you bigger, I guess.” — Paul Konerko, sweeping the story under a rug.

“I didn’t read the article. If that is in fact what he said, he has come out at a time when he doesn’t have to say it, and he doesn’t have to expose himself like that.” — Kenny Williams, sweeping the story under a rug.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 23, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, that isn't exactly how it was

>>McGwire admitted to using Andro in the middle of the 1998 season and within a week it was old news.

An AP sports writer reported on this, and immediately baseball circled the wagons, Mac whined, and fans and even many baseball writers raked the guy who did the reporting over the coals. Not a single “baseball bulletin board” as they were called at the time, nor a single call-in sports program that I read or heard favored this report or the reporter. He was trashed because, after all, Mark McGwire was a hero. It was like pissing on Patton’s grave.

There’s plenty of blame to go around in the steroid “scandal.” Players didn’t want to talk about it, owners didn’t want to know about it, team officials didn’t want to hear about it, reporters didn’t want to see a great story go away and fans didn’t want to believe anything other than they were witness to history, feeling just as those people must have felt in ’61 and ’21 and ’27.

The vilification of the writer who reported that story went on for at least a month, and there were fumes from that story all season long and into the next spring. It didn’t die quickly because people were so busy trying to kill the messenger.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 23, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

But should we have cared?

Andro’s even less of a cheating gray area than steroids – while neither were explicitly banned by baseball at the time, the anti-steroid crowd could at at least point out that steroids were against the law when used without a prescription. Andro was available at GNC, and there was no law prohibiting it. You or I could’ve used andro to bulk up for slow-pitch softball, and no one would have cared if we brought it to the game and gave it to our teammates.

I don’t have any problem with what the reporter did, but I do have a problem with the implication that McGwire’s use of Andro was somehow cheating. I do believe that McGwire also used steroids (based on a combination of Canseco’s books, his evasive Congressional testimony, and gut feeling), but I don’t think his use of Andro is, in itself, anything to illegitimize his performance.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 24, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Dotted line

Andro was the smoking gun that launched speculation that use of substances beyond andro was occurring.

As quickly, all the powers that be, and the fans, shoved the talk of something worse under the rug, positioning it as a conspiracy theory drummed up by a few folks.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 24, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with Killer

but I don’t think it’s that black and white. Aaron and Maris have been accused of using “greenies” (amphetamines) during their day, same with Mantle and Coufax. This goes beyond Manny, Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jul 23, 2009 7:14 PM EDT reply actions  

But then you make a statement that is meant to be black and white

It isn’t “maybe some of these other guys from way back used something,” you come out and say they were accused of it, appending with a definitive air, “This goes beyond Manny, Bonds, Sosa, and McGwire.” The suggestion there is that it goes back to the 50s and 60s.

This stuff about these guys using this and that needs substantiation.

I doubt Coufax [SIC] was taking anything. Why would he need a greenie?

Maris? Who accused him?

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 23, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Had you read the Strib article

Killebrew said they should “Throw the names out there” because “You don’t know” if someone used steroids or not so everyone’s record is suspect. My point was the same could apply for earlier players. Nothing black and white at all IMO. As far as Maris, et al is concerned, I am not accusing them of anything, others have. Again, that refers back to what Killebrew was saying.
Do your own research, I found it very easily.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jul 23, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

One steroid Koufax was indisputably taking:

Cortisone.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's Koufax with a K

Which is appropriate for such a great pitcher.

by caluofmn on Jul 24, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

I read the article

I get it.

You don’t.

Who are the “others” who have accused Maris?

Let’s have the names, smart boy.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 23, 2009 10:06 PM EDT reply actions  

No help.

As usual.

Maybe you should actually read the stuff you Google for others there, Nater. It’s pretty obvious you did not.

I’ve read the meager amount of lame suppositions about Maris offered by people who happen to have an Internet connection. They suppose, but they offer not a bit of proof or any evidence. And none of these people accuse Maris of using steroids. They are theorizing.

Hey, more neau: I’m still waiting for the list of people who have accused Maris of using steroids, and who can offer some valid support.

And po’ ol’ Nater thinks a cortisone shot is the same as using steroids?

Let me help you boys out a little, being neither of you seem to be able to do any of your own research:

1) A cortisone shot administered by a doctor in 1964 is not the same as Jose Canseco injecting anabolic steroids in his own butt. (Maybe by now ol’ Nater is starting to latch onto the distinctions of “cortisone,” “anabolic steroids” and “administered by a doctor.”)

2) Anabolic steroids were not illegal in this country before 1990, and this fact is huge.

Tons of bandwidth could be saved if guys like Nate and more neau would gain some understanding before tappin’ the keyboard.

Let me do your work for you there, laddies:

If Roger Maris’ entire family says they took turns shooting his butt full of anabolic steroids in 1961 it was OK. It wasn’t cheating then, and it wasn’t illegal. Shoot away, Rajah.

Anabolic steroids were not on Schedule III of controlled substances until the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990. And MLB did not ban them until after that.

Get it?

Before 1990, there was nothing illegal about using this stuff in the U.S. for purposes other than what was written on the package.

Hell, the IOC didn’t ban anabolic steroids until the mid-70s.

MLB’s “steroid scandal” isn’t about cheating at a game, it’s about is breaking the law.

If anabolic steroids were not a Schedule III drug before 1990 and MLB didn’t ban it, how could it be cheating, let alone illegal, if Maris or Maglie or anyone took it?

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 24, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Schedule III drugs are legal with a prescription

Just like cortisone is legal with a prescription. You seem to be saying that if Bonds could produce a prescription for steroids then the scandal would disappear. Don’t think so dude, but hey, just like Maris, Bonds never failed a drug test.

I had a good chuckle over picturing you watch that link work its magic, Johnny. You know what? You’re an all right guy.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hate to break it to you, but...

I didn’t click your link. You’re a transparent feller, I’ll say that.

I’ve googled “anabolic steroids” and “Roger Maris” before and found nothing substantive, so how could you possibly have done so?

And yup, if Bonds had a prescription for the steroids there would be no problem. All legal.

However, if you knew how pharmacies treat the dispensing of schedule III drugs you would understand how difficult that would be to maintain over any meaningful period.

Nice as Wikipedia is for some folks, it just doesn’t beat real-world experience.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 24, 2009 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm still chuckling...

…only now it’s at your real-world experience injecting yourself in the ass

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah also he obviously clicked on the link

how else would he know to tell me to “read the stuff you Google for others”?

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Alas, there are no heavyweights in this discussion

>>>how else would he know to tell me to "read the stuff you Google for others"?

You disappoint me there, Nater. I thought you were at least an intellectual poser, but you just another room-temperature IQ guy.

Here’s your URL: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=maris+steroids

Ummm, lmgtfy.com in the URL kinda gives it away, donchathink?

Here’s a little tip: Next time, convert the URL through tinyurl.com, then the person will actually be surprised.

Duh.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Jul 25, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

chuckle chuckle

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 25, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

you know what Johnny, you’re all right!

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 25, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

From my favorite source

“It is legal in the United States and in many other countries to use drugs off-label, including controlled substances such as opiates, even though it is a common misconception that it is unlawful to do so. Actiq, for example, is commonly prescribed off-label even though it is a Schedule II controlled substance.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-label_use

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Did You Know...

With an altitude of more than 1,000 feet above sea level, Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium was (until the Colorado Rockies entered the major leagues) the highest park in the majors, which results in many homers and the nickname “The Launching Pad.”

by benhertz on Jul 24, 2009 2:43 AM EDT reply actions  

What Maris had

He was a dead-pull hitter who played a third of his games in stadiums with very short right field foul poles (Old Yankee Stadium, Fenway, Tiger stadium). Most of his homers were right down the line inin the first few rows of seats. He never hit them that far, like the Mick.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 24, 2009 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Then of course there was the Schedule I drug scandal of 2002

You don’t remember the ’02 Mets marijuana scandal? Marijuana is a Schedule I drug, for which there is no approved medical use. Far worse in the eyes of the law than players who abused anabolic steroids, Tony Tarasco, Mark Corey and reliever Grant Robert will forever go down in baseball infamy. Or not.

So baseball’s “steroids scandal” is not about breaking the law.

"I don't care about feelings." - Lou Piniella

by natetheskate on Jul 24, 2009 7:40 PM EDT reply actions  

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