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Off Day Discussion Topic: "Ace" Blackburn's contract

So - another complete game for Nick Blackburn, who's having an All Star-worthy first half of the season.  He's sixth in the AL in ERA, fifth in innings pitched, and tied for second in complete games. Most folks are referring to him as the new "ace of the staff," only three months after Scott Baker's contract made Baker, at least at the pay window, the team's ace.

With all of that said, let's not forget that Blackburn was more or less exactly average in 2008, his first full year.  He was 11-11 last season with an adjusted ERA of exactly 100 (league average).  He's on a great run at the moment - over his last 11 starts, he has a 1.98 ERA, and has pitched at least six innings in each outing - but this represents about one-third of one season.

As far as contracts go: 2008 was his first full year, and since he was barely around in 2007, he'd be a league-minimum serf through at least 2010, and under team control through 2013.

So, today's discussion topic: if you're the Twins, how do you approach Blackburn's contract?  Do you attempt to buy out his arbitration years after this season, based on 2-4 really good months? Do you make him "prove it" over two seasons, saving in the short term but possibly increasing his price?

Keep in mind that Baker is currently the only starter that you have extended for any length of time; Francisco Liriano and Glen Perkins are arbitration-eligible after this season, while Kevin Slowey is on the same clock as Blackburn.

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Extending Blackburn

I wouldn’t do anything right now, but I would take a look after the season. I’d be more inclined to lock up Slowey before Blackburn, as I expect Slowey to have more value in the long run (Baker more than either). With Slowey, the peripherals are in line with his success over the past year and a half (other than wins). With Blackburn, the peripherals may not have caught up to his performance.

I would probably look to extend Slowey during the offseason, but Blackburn’s got to show me a bit more to merit buying out arbitration years. He’s on his way though.

by Adam Peterson on Jul 6, 2009 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

No.

You have one more year of serfdom with Blackburn—use it. If it costs you a few more dollars through arb, so be it. He strikes me as exactly the kind of guy you go year to year with.

At any rate, now is absolutely NOT when you extend a guy. Why pay for his best few months? Even if he keeps it up all year, why pay when he’s coming off his best year and you don’t have to?

The Twins did that once. His name was Joe Mays.

by Eric in Madison on Jul 6, 2009 10:54 AM EDT reply actions  

Yep

I’m totally in agreement with this – I was even ready to invoke Joe Mays after reading your first two paragraphs.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 6, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Make him repeat this year, twice

Then pay him the money. He’s still in the “small sample size” area of his major league career. I would discuss a 3-4 year deal to buy out a year or two of free agency after his first year of arbitration. At that point Blackburn will be 29 years old and paying him for ages 30-33 will look pretty good. If the Twins decide not to give him a long term deal they still have him controlled through age 31.

by DJL44 on Jul 6, 2009 11:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Was

Was gonna write up a longer post, don’t need to after this

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 6, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fun Fact

Joe Mays had a FIP of 4.27 in 2001, the year that earned him his big contract – his impressive ERA (he led the AL in ERA+) appears to have been fueled by a ridiculous .251 BABIP.

I think if we mention Joe Mays in this thread one more time, Jon’s next post is going to be “I’m sorry… (sob) I’m so sorry… (sob) Just forget I brought it up (weeps bitterly).”

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 6, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't think you fail to extend him because of the possibility of TJ surgery

What percentage of pitchers blow out their elbows?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 6, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the point is that pitchers can be flakey...

Mays never had a history of appearing to be a great pitcher when he was coming up through the minors. His 2001 season basically came out of nowhere so even without the injury it wouldn’t be reasonable to expect him to repeat it.

See what Sickels says about Blackburn last fall:

http://www.minorleagueball.com/2008/9/16/614932/analysis-of-twins-rookie-n

Blackburn also never looked like a blue-chipper coming up and he’s still not a dominating pitcher by any means. In fact, his K-rate is down this year.

I’m tickled that he’s doing so well right now, but I pause when asked if I expect him to continue. We need to take a closer look at how he manages to give up so few runs while giving up lots of hits and not striking many batters out and see if he’s truly an outlier pitcher in this regard.

by DavidRF on Jul 6, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

That I agree with

I’m just hesitant to compare him to Mays or Silva or whomever. These were unique cases as well. I was adamant against a Mays contract after 01 and that will prove to be one of Terry Ryan’s worst moves as a GM. Not resigning Silva is one of his best moves. I guess based on those two moves, I would have a general hesitance to sign guys prior to arbitration. But I wouldn’t have a specific hesitance in the case of Blackburn.

There’s been a lot of controversy about projecting Blackburn since John Manuel rated him the number 1 prospect in the Twins system prior to last year. He is a strange case: A draft-and-follow guy who got off to a slow start in his pro career and developed late. But since he turned the corner (post 2006) he’s been really good. So perhaps he’s a rare late bloomer or perhaps he’s a flash in the pan. Who knows?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 6, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Agreed on the difficulty of pegging Blackburn at the moment: he sorta looks like a low strikeout Halladay these days.

But you don’t give that guy an “ace contract” when he’s not in arbitration yet. You hold him for a couple more years and try to figure out wtf he is.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Jul 7, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's not it

I realize that Mays had injury problems after the Twins gave him that contract, and certainly that was part of the problem. But Mays was absolutely terrible when he wasn’t injured, both before and after the TJ surgery, and the fact remained that at the time of the signing, 2001 was his only good year, and his peripherals were way out of whack with his results, suggesting that he may have been lucky.

Basically, I’m not saying they should have failed to extend him because of the possibility he’d blow out his elbow (although you certainly have to keep that in mind, especially with a pitcher with just one year of great success, since it could be a mechanical change that’s harder on the arm) – I’m saying they should have failed to extend him because he wasn’t really as good as his ERA indicated. I don’t know that his results would’ve been all that much better than they were if he’d been healthy for those four years.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 6, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

They already have a 5 year deal with Blackburn

With complete flexibility if he never pitches again. Better yet, what % of “tall and fall” pitchers need Tommy John surgery.

by DJL44 on Jul 6, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

I think the answer should be uniformly "no".

Especially while he’s still in his pre-arbitration years. If he gets into his first or second arbitration year (i.e., two or three years from now) and he’s been a 200 IP guy with a 3.00 ERA each year, then hell yeah, lock him up. Until then, there isn’t much in it, from the Twins perspective, that’s attractive.

Pre-free agent long-term deals are only a good idea for teams who want to provide cost certainty. The Twins already have that, since through 2010 they can pay Blackburn pretty much whatever they want.

by Jesse on Jul 6, 2009 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

contract

I wouldn’t be opposed to some sort of extention like a 3 year deal for no more than 5 million guraenteed with incentives and one or two option years. He has proven that he can eat innings. That has value. The question is whether he can maintain staff ace…. Hence performance incentives and option years added for innings pitched. Be creative and think outside the box. 5-6 million guarenteed goes a long way towards potential savings when you are still in serfdom.

Doofenschmirtz Evil, INC.
Phineas and Ferb

by doofus on Jul 6, 2009 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Not in serfdom it doesn't.

In arbitration it would. While a guy is a serf, he’s making just over the major league minimum in years two and three. The Twins would lose big time financially if they signed him to that big of a deal, relative such as it is, before years two or three of arbitration.

by Jesse on Jul 6, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

i'm thinking

I’m thinking a breakdown of someting like this.

year one 500k
year two 1.5 million
year three 3 million

If he signed a contract like that. Or something in that mould wouldn’t we likely save money as long as he was pitching 200 plus innings per year with a 4.00 era? What would he likely make the next 3 years? I would offer something in the neighborhood of 20% less than that with a team option or 2 and some incentives. We save money he gets security. He may not last as an all star type pitcher, but I think he has shown to be a valuable innings eater as someone who can eat 200 innings a year and be competetive with it.

He got off to a slow start in his minor league career because of a knee injury.

Doofenschmirtz Evil, INC.
Phineas and Ferb

by doofus on Jul 7, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's fair enough.

I just don’t think the Twins would be saving enough money in this scenario for it to be worth the trouble. There are too many things playing against the idea.

1: This is the most important one. It’s just never a good idea to offer a multi-year contract on the basis of three months’ work.
2: The “cost certainty” for the Twins isn’t worth enough money. Look at it this way…they’d save more money if they didn’t sign him and Blackburn got hurt, than they’d save by signing him and having him healthy. Even in your scenario laid out above, the Twins aren’t even saving a million dollars. Cost certainty is worth more than a million dollars.
3: We all know what it takes to be successful long-term: the more strikeouts, the fewer the walks, the fewer the home runs, the fewer the base runners, the better off the outlook. Even in these last three months, he’s not elite in these categories. Projectible guys, guys with room to grow into their ceilings, might be looked at for a small deal…but even they wouldn’t be offered to a guy in his second year of serfdom. And Blackburn isn’t “projectible”. He’s a “plateau” type, which means his tools could sharpen, but they won’t get better physically. And this means he needs a track record to prove he can duplicate this kind of a performance. For that we need time, of which three months isn’t enough.

I understand where you’re coming from, because signing Scott Baker to his deal was a really good decision. But Baker’s peripherals are better than Blackburn’s, and even Baker had to wait until his arbitration years before he was offered a long-term contract. I think that’s the best bet for Nick, too. This organization is all about rewarding the guys who came up through the system, but they still need to prove themselves, first.

by Jesse on Jul 7, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not yet

As far as the ace conversation it’s been thrown around on the latest minor league post by Roger. All these guys have shown ability to be a #2 type pitcher. However they’ve all been inconsistent overall. Blackburn being the sole exception this year but I’m still not convinced of him being an Ace yet. Eventually the best pitchers will rise to the top and we’ll see who they really are.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Jul 6, 2009 8:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Consistency

I would rather have a guy who pitches 10 QSes in a row without ever dominating than a guy who dominates for three stars and gets knocked out after three innings for a start. To me, an ace is someone who does both. Johan is the closest thing we’ve had to an ace in a long time here. Radke was nominally an ace for a couple of years. But he would have been mid-rotation on a lot of staffs in his time. Blackburn has a chance to be in Radke’s class if he can stay consistent.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 6, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I think we were all spoiled with a guy like Santana and then especially when Liriano looked even better than Santana in 06. We’re all clamoring for an Ace but to me an Ace is like you said and not all teams have them every year. Some teams get lucky and get 2 of ‘em on one staff. I look at these guys and think that Slowey/Baker can be as good probably even a bit better than Radke but still not quite in Ace territory. I’m still a believer that Liriano has the best chance to develop into a true Ace (top 10-15 pitcher in the league). It’s funny that even with how this year has gone Blackburn is at best the 3rd best pitcher on the team possibly 4th. If I were to pick who to keep long term I’d go with Slowey and Baker first, then it’s a tossup between Blackburns consistency and Liriano’s potential. Luckily the Twins don’t yet have to make that decision and they shouldn’t.

They at least wait til the end of this year to make any more pitchers long term options like Baker. If Blackburn continues this the rest of the season he may just vault ahead of the others and may be worth signing long term and even be a secondary ace type like Radke or how Silva was in his good years.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Jul 7, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

revisit in one year

no sense in doing anything until then.

by ajmargarine on Jul 7, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions  

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