Crede Best Defensive American League 3B?

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 11:33 AM EDT Comment 47 comments

When the Twins signed Crede in the spring of 2009, they hoped and expected Crede to provide some power to the middle of the order and flawless defense at 3B. Well, despite a low average and OBP, Crede has helped the Twins lineup with 14 HR and 40 RBI, but how has his defense been?

Joe Crede leads the american league in FPCT and errors (not made). However, while these are not stats that many put much faith in, they are a stat which tell a great deal about Crede's value. However, a newer stat, one now used by the voters in determining the ultimate winner of the Gold Glove, has come out. The UZR, Ultimate Zone Rating, a method of determining a players arm and range, ranks Crede at the top of the league among all 3B.

Crede has been very valuable to this team, not only because he has provided some power at 3B (something lacking in the Twins lineup since the days of Corey Koskie), but because he has been golden at 3B (possibly a career year at 3B).

The UZR/150 is the average number of runs saved over the course of 150 defensive games. As can be seen, Crede sits between 25-30 runs saved per 150 defensive games. The next highest run saver, Adrian Beltre, is between 15-20 runs saved per 150 games. Thus, Crede saves about 10 runs more per 150 games than Beltre, one of the premier defensive 3B in baseball.

via voicefromtwinsterritory.mlblogs.com

This raises the question: Are we, as bloggers, taking Crede's defense for granted? Do we realize just how valuable Joe Crede is to this team?

In conclusion, Crede has benefited this team in so many ways:

Crede has provided power in 14 HR to the middle-bottom of the order...
Crede has the highest fielding percentage in the american league (.985) with only 3 errors committed.
Crede ranks at the top of all third baseman in UZR and UZR/150 saving an average of 25-30 runs

Should Crede win a Gold Glove in 2009?

In my opinion, yes, hands down. Unfortunately, the writers who vote for the Gold Glove, do not vote for the best defensive player in baseball, as it should be, but the best overall (fielding and hitting: OBP, SLG, AVG) player in baseball at their respective positions. This would explain why Castillo was never awarded a Gold Glove while with the Twins, despite being the best defensive second baseman in the american league. This would explain why Morneau has not won a Gold Glove, though he has won silver sluggers and an MVP award. This would explain why Mauer lost out on the Gold Glove for Pudge Rodriguez, despite Mauer being the better defender. The Gold Glove voters are biased, as are the All-Star voters. This would also explain why Carlos Gomez did not win a Gold Glove last year, despite being the best defensive CF in the Major League Baseball - along with Grady Sizemore.

*My thanks to Twins Territory who inspired me with this story. He wrote up his own version, which can be viewed here.

Poll

Does Crede deserve more recognition and a Gold Glove?

Yes; No

57 votes

No; Yes

18 votes

Yes; Yes

100 votes

No; No

28 votes

203 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 47 comments

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Comments

Welcome to the world of Joe Crede

We have watched him in Chicago for years and wondered why the hell he didn’t get more defensive recognition. The Gold Glove is a joke anyway nowadays. Crede’s half year defense was very valuable to the White Sox season last year. Is there talk of re signing him up there? I hope not. Then again he’s a Boras client…….

"Oh well back to work"

by Tdogg on Aug 1, 2009 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I do not believe

the Twins will resign Joe…Crede, that is. Danny Valencia is waiting for his crack at the big leagues and I think the Twins will give it to him in 2010.

I think the only way the Twins resign Crede is as a secondary DH to Kubel (who doesnt hit lefties very well at all) or as a pinch hitter/defensive replacement in late game situations.

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'd be nice to have

if Valencia struggles

Son, when you participate in sporting events, it's not whether you win or lose: it's how drunk you get. ~Homer Simpson

by thewild_viking_twins on Aug 1, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Resign = Quit. Re-sign = bring him back.

Sorry. It’s a thing.

by Jesse on Aug 1, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha good catch Jesse

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

With his back problems ...

which are continuing, he won’t be too expensive. one would think, anyway. I would be in favor of signing him, making him opening day starting 3B, and then bring up Valencia on June 1st, just for a taste. If he lights it up, great. We then use Crede as a DH or PH. Possibly trading him at the deadline. If Valencia struggles, we send him back down for one more year, and we still have a very good option.

"You should enter a ballpark like you enter a church." - Bill "Spaceman" Lee

by Dr. Yogi on Aug 1, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

resign

I wouldn’t have a problem with a resigning if it is a fair deal. Obviously don’t want to over pay. I bet he will be elsewhere though, overpaid part-time player in the NL.

That’s my call.

by WITwinsfan on Aug 1, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Gold Glove

Hands down, he should get it. Good work showing the UZR relative to others. I wouldn’t be surprised if Inge ends up getting it because of the “story”.

by Adam Peterson on Aug 1, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

"the story"

Jason Monroe won the HR Derby over the rightful Josh Hamilton…

Justin Morneau won the MVP over the rightful Derek Jeter…

Joe Mauer cheated on his way to two consecutive batting titles, stealing the first from Jeter/Cano…

I am starting to get sick of players getting all the attention when they lose something, i.e. Josh Hamilton, because of “the story”.

That said, Inge is a great player, but looking at the UZR and UZR/150 numbers, Crede should be far and away the gold glover. But it wouldn’t surprise me if he lost out to Inge and “the story” as Morneau and Mauer have been cheated of their rightful fame.

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you

it would be a shame if Inge got it, considering Crede has far outperformed him defensively. Of course, it depends on what happens over the last two months.

by Adam Peterson on Aug 2, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Who is Jason Monroe?

Never heard of him. But wait, after reading your name, it was your guy Justin Morneau. How can you forget YOUR GUY, 33Morneau?

by Sheldon on Aug 7, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crede's Value

We knew what we were getting this year if Crede could stay healthy. Below average bat, but perhaps the best defensive 3B in the majors.

So far he’s stayed relatively healthy, 74 games and 304 PA, and he’s been a stellar +20.9 runs above replacement so far this year, driven by +11.5 runs above average (RAA) defensively and -1.6 offensively.

How does Crede compare to other MLB third basemen? 15th in overall RAR, ahead of Aramis Ramirez, Chipper Jones and others. I’ll take that.

Asa far as signing him next year is concerned, I’d consider another 1 year contract, but I’d let him test the waters. Valencia is our 3BOTF, he should get a chance next spring whoever we have. Crede could be nice insurance.

by Adam Peterson on Aug 1, 2009 2:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree Valencia

should get a shot come April 2010. Valencia should be starting at 3B to start the season. However, if we could sign Crede for the right price (rather hard with Boras), then he could possibly be the best bench option the Twins have had for some time.

Crede could fill in as a defensive replacement (Valencia is good, just not Crede good) or as the RHP DH with Kubel the LHP DH. Crede would provide power off the bench and would be a great guy to teach Valencia the ropes.

Crede could be very much like a Redmond this year, who just sits on the bench with the occasional start, but is willing to guide Morales in preparation for his certain backup duties in 2010.

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not going to happen

Third base is one of the thinnest positions in baseball, which is why it took the Twins three years and three different FAs to fill it competently after Koskie left. Assuming Crede doesn’t need another surgery, he will get offers in the $7 to $10 million range this offseason. As a Boras client, that won’t be with the Twins.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 1, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yup

he is gone this offseason.

by guinness junky on Aug 1, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah

He’ll rightfully try to cash in this offseason after a relatively (for him) healthy and productive season. Valencia and Harris at 3B next season, unless we decide to trade Harris for spare parts.

by Adam Peterson on Aug 2, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wouldn't it be hilarious, though?

For the Twins to have a $7 to $10 million BENCH player?

by Sheldon on Aug 7, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

+100,000

"I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. See, my mule don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it . . ."

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Aug 4, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gotta take the field a little more often

He’s played in about 70 percent of the team’s games. He’s a great defender, puts the ball on Morneau’s belt buckle all the time, rather than Puntoing the ball off the turf. People who look at his BA or just his offense – your typical Fantasy Leaguers – miss the big picture. But he’s no Gold Glover if he can’t answer the bell.

Bloggin' the bloggers since 1938.

by Johnny Safron on Aug 1, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

"Puntoing"

You just won the coveted Coined Word of the Month award. Step forward to claim your prize.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 1, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I had not realized that was a word so I looked at some online encyclopedias, and what do you know:

punto (poon-toe)

transitive verb puntoed, puntoing punto′·ing

   1. Archaic to fail
   2. to cause to hit against a surface so as to spring back to bounce a ball
   3. ☆ Slang to put (an undesirable person) out by force
   4. ☆ Slang to discharge from employment

Etymology: ME puntoen, to fail; ? akin to Du puntozen & LowG puntosen, to weakly flail, to dive headfirst and come up short

intransitive verb

   1. to spring back from a surface after striking it; rebound
   2. to throw a ball 95 feet of a 110 foot throw; spring; to dive headfirst for no apparent reason
   3. ☆ Slang to be returned to the payee by a bank as a worthless check, because of insufficient funds in the drawer’s account

noun

   1.
         1. a bouncing; rebound
         2. a leap or jump
   2. capacity for bouncing the ball has lost its bounce
   3. Brit. impudence; bluster
   4. ☆ Informal
         1. energy, zest, etc.
         2. the ability to regain one’s spirit or optimism

Related Forms:

* puntoey punto′y adjective puntoier punto′·i·er, puntoiest punto′·i·est

'Right now, I am going to urinate' -Tom Kelly

by sw mn guy on Aug 1, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fine line

If Crede takes the field more often, say 85% of the games, does he break down?

by Adam Peterson on Aug 2, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks for the link to AVFTT.

I actually wrote that story after seeing a lot of people say Crede wasn’t helping the team much.

I wanted to point out that he’s a career .250 hitter with some pop, so he was living up to that. And, his defense is widely overlooked. I definitely think he deserves to be highly considered for the Gold Glove, but unfortunately it has become more of a “name” thing.

by Twins Territory on Aug 1, 2009 3:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I know

thats where I got the inspiration to write this story…its close to yours but yet I take it off into my own observations. I was happy to give the credit where it was due, but I see that the link only takes you to the image (which is weird) instead of your side of the story.

I am getting so sick and tired of people saying that Crede doesnt help the team much because he pops up so much. Yes, Crede is a .250 hitter with pop, but its his defense that makes him into who he is. Given the choice of Koskie or Crede…I would take Crede.

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

though with Koskie

you would have an incredible Canadian tandem at the corner infield spots!

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 1, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not so sure I'd take Crede over Koskie

I’m going to disagree with you there. A similar topic was discussed over at SBG’s site last week which helped us all remember how good Koskie really was. Something to consider from that discussion:

Career UZR/150G

17.5 — Longoria
16.3 — Feliz
15.6 — Rolen
13.8 — Koskie
13.5 — Beltre
11.4 — Zimmerman
10.0 — Crede
7.0 — Inge
5.7 — Chavez

In addition to being a better defender (as measured by UZR) over his career, Koskie was a much more valuable offensive player than Crede. Don’t get me wrong – Crede’s a quality player, but Koskie was a cut above him. Too bad things turned out for him the way they did.

Carriage Return

by CarterHayes on Aug 4, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

ah too true

I didnt Koskie’s career UZR/150, so I couldnt make that evaluation. Welcome back to Twinkie Town…maybe Jesse will once more put you in a position of authority as one of the Senior Writers or some such thing.

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 4, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Appreciated, but unlikely.

I wouldn’t presume to hold such a title. At this point in my life I’m content to be a Blogger Emeritus, hanging out in the back of the room.

Carriage Return

by CarterHayes on Aug 4, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crede

Wil be 32, still youthful. His bat ahs pop. He can hit .240, I would think. The question is, will someone offer him a multi-year deal, or even a guaranteed one-year deal in the $6-8 million range (although he will initially be thinking he should get $8-10 for some reason).

He won’t take a deal like the Twins gave him, based on play. Doesn’t have to, unless he pulls up lame before season’s end.

Twins can’t afford him.

Wait, though…can they offer him arbitration?

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Aug 1, 2009 4:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

They would only offer arbitration to get picks

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 1, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not a type A or type B

I don’t think he has much chance to be either since he missed so much time last year due to injury.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 1, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

He could be a B

We’re talking about a position where Josh Fields is one of the starters.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 1, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not without some luck

Link

If these rankings are accurate than he doesn’t have much chance. If he has a monster last 2 months maybe but I really don’t think these fluctuate too quickly as I believe they’re based on 2 years of performance, right?

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 2, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

One and a half healthy seasons should do it

His worst season was 2007 because he hardly played at all. 2008 was decent. If he can manage to play in 120 games in 2009, with average production, he should be a B. You’re basically swapping out a non-existent season (2007) with a solid one (2009).

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Aug 2, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Those rankings are updated

They’re not official some guy figured out how they do them and Tim @mlbtraderumors links to them every time he updates. So those are updated as of 08012009, once again I think there’s very little chance based on those rankings that he’s even a B. I hope I’m wrong though, it’d be nice to pick up an extra pick.

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 2, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Chone Figgins

What kind of defender is he based on these #s? I ask because he will be a FA next year and was wondering if he has any realistic chance at playing 2B. Anyone wanna shed some light?

Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

by halfchest on Aug 1, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

no way

the Twins wil offer big cash. Its not their style

Carlos Guillen, the Latino Nick Punto

by The_Fan on Aug 9, 2009 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crede hasn’t played enough this year to win the Gold Glove.

IMO

by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Aug 1, 2009 6:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Good story,

but the UZR numbers you reference to support Crede discredit many of your homeristic claims in the last paragraph, specifically regarding the defensive prowess of Castillo and Morneau. UZR says they’ve been merely average defenders for the position. FWIW, UZR really liked Gomez last year (Sizemore was just average), while UZR doesn’t attempt to measure catcher defense.

by Mike I on Aug 1, 2009 6:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

UZR is good..

..to help measure a defender. It shouldn’t be used alone, but neither should a fielding percentage.

by Twins Territory on Aug 1, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So tell me what you would also use to measure defense?

UZR is by far the best publicly available defensive stat (the Fielding Bible is also nice, but not free). Fielding % is complete crap, as UZR also takes errors into account.

by Mike I on Aug 1, 2009 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

personally

I would use UZR and UZR/150 over FPCT. It is a much more reliable stat (along the lines of the plus/minus system, but just with more involvement in the actual play of the player).

by 33MorneauMVP on Aug 4, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fielding Bible

Fielding Bible Plus/Minus
Third Base
2009

Player +/-
Chone Figgins +25
Ryan Zimmerman +21
Scott Rolen +18
Joe Crede +17
Jack Hannahan +16
Adrian Beltre +15
Evan Longoria +13
Brandon Inge +13
Martin Prado +8
Adam Kennedy +5
Mark Loretta +5

by TwinsFanc1981 on Aug 2, 2009 11:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My main irritation is his health.

I love that he has played well here, but I do get frustrated that he misses so many games. Our ‘optimal’ lineup is awesome, but so rarely on the field.

People ask me what I do in winter when there's no baseball. I'll tell you what I do. I stare out the window and wait for spring. ~Rogers Hornsby

by FoulJack on Aug 3, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs