Should the Twins Chase Brad Penny?
Update: 2:34pm
According to Joe C., the Twins would consider picking up the rest of Penny's salary by claiming him on waivers. Christensen estimates Minnesota could owe Penny $1.11 to $1.44 million depending on incentives. He also says the Twins "are considering a move" for Ron Mahay.
When the Red Sox cut Brad Penny loose Wednesday night, every team in baseball looking for a starting pitcher (and it's more than a few) had their ears perked up. No doubt calls were made to inquire on Penny's health, both physical and mental, but with our own starting rotation in shambles is there any chance the Twins were on that list of callers?
It's been said that the Sox have "overreacted to a recent poor stretch of results" in regards to releasing Penny, and it's true. His last five starts haven't exactly been his best stretch, as they've included one quality start, two starts that I'd call disappointing, and then another pair of outings that were definitely rotten. That includes his last outing, where he allowed eight runs in four innings. Poor overall results, for sure.
Prior to this poor stretch however, Penny rattled off a series of 12 starts where he compiled a 3.67 ERA. This summer has been a better one, compared to 2008, as his strikeout rates are up and are his best in three seasons, his walk rates are down and also are his best in three seasons, and he's done a decent job of keeping the ball in the park.
The fact is that Penny has actually had a pretty decent year, in spite of a few poor outings, and the worst thing you can say about him is that he isn't the most efficient worker. He averaged less than six innings per start over that 12-game stretch, and he hasn't been deeper than 6.1 innings in a start all season.
There's belief that wherever Penny signs, he'd be better off in the National League. Ken Rosenthal spoke to a GM who insisted Brad would be "stupid to stay in the AL", but this is based on the notion that Penny just hasn't had as much success in the American League. Which makes no sense, considering this is the one and only time in his career where he's been on an AL squad. His 4.48 FIP isn't great, but it is better than the 5.27 number he posted with the Dodgers in 2008.
Penny still boasts a good mid-90's fastball, which hasn't been as effective as it was as recently as 2007, but he's still bouncing back from last summer when he missed a great deal of time due to his throwing shoulder. This could also be the reason his curveball, which has been so devastating against right-handed hitters over the years, hasn't been anything better than his worst pitch all season.
Boston took a gamble on Penny, worth a mid-range $5 million, and for a while it certainly looked like a steal. If a team wants him before Monday, they'll be on the hook for a pro-rated portion of his salary, or about $830,000. He's also due $500,000 in incentives each time he hits 160, 170, 180 and 190 innings pitched, and a cool million for 200. At 131 innings on the season, he'd be fortunate enough to hit 160 innings let alone anything more. But if a team waits until Monday, when Penny passes through waivers, his services would be worth less than $100,000.
Is Penny a better, or at least more consistent, bet than Brian Duensing or Armando Gabino? You bet he is. This doesn't mean he could save the rotation, but if the Twins can get him for change they'd be better for it.
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Easy answer
Yes
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by fetch9 on Aug 27, 2009 3:00 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
+1
Strib is reporting the Twins are interested. http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/2009/08/27/sources-twins-could-splurge-for-penny/
In my opinion, it’s a no-brainer with our starter situation.
Do the Twins get priority on the release waivers?
This may be a good day to be below the White Sox in the standings. Are there waivers or is he just outright released?
I’d rather have Penny pitching than Humber, Gabino, Duensing, Manship, Swarzak, Mulvey, Keppel or Dickey. It’s a no-brainer to put in a waiver claim, don’t try to be cheap and let Penny decide where he wants to go because he’ll head to the other league.
It sounds like he hasn't been placed on release waivers yet.
Which is why teams would have to pick up the rest of his salary if they claim him before Monday.
It wouldn't hurt
But I’m sure that some division leaders would want another veteran in their rotation.
Luckily, because of how waivers work,
the Twins would get a shot before any other contending AL team.
Not really luckily
If they had a better record they probably wouldn’t need him
Who gets to claim, Twins or white Sox?
I know the team with the worse record gets the right of first refusal. But what if they have the same record?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Apparently the White Sox have first dibs
Due to the head-to-head records
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Head to head matters for waiver claims, but not for the playoffs…makes sense
by guinness junky on Aug 27, 2009 5:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hmm...
I spent the better part of this afternoon trying to figure this out. I couldn’t actually find anything that said this was true for release waivers (only for trade waivers). Joe C says in his updated blog post that for release waivers, the team from either league with the worst record has priority. In the case of the white sox/twins (same record), priority goes to the team with the worst record in the previous year. http://blogs2.startribune.com/blogs/christensen/2009/08/27/sources-twins-could-splurge-for-penny/
Are the Sox even interested in Penny?
I don’t think so, so it really doesn’t matter, unless you think they would block us on waivers?
any interest by the sox
would simply be the interest in making sure the Twins don’t claim him, if this is perceived as an upgrade….that is a big if. He has been pretty awful. Sox may just let us have them and lick their chops.
by guinness junky on Aug 27, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Second time through waivers
Apparently Penny was already on waivers earlier this month. From what I understand if you put a player on waivers a second time the other team can’t pull them back.
So therefore, if the Sox try to block us they’re stuck with Penny so they’d have to want him to some degree as they can’t just block him and then make the Red Sox keep him.
I also read that Penny has the right to block any waiver claim thus making himself a free agent, but then he wouldn’t be eligible to make his incentives and therefore would be making less but could play for any team he likes. Link
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I was gonna ask
Do the sox have any payroll room left for the year? and do they need him? Isn’t Peavy supposed to pitch soon?
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I thought I saw that Ozzie said that he doesn't believe Peavy will pitch for the WSox in 09 a couple days ago
If that’s the case, then Penny might make sense
Maybe The Roid Sox Were Too Stupid To Notice He Was Tipping His Pitches As Well
The Roid Sox paid Penny & Smoltz over $10 million to pitch for them this year and they were both horrible. But Smoltz was lights out for the Cards in his first game for them after Duncan and La Russa noticed he was tipping his pitches and made the corrections. Can’t beleive the Roid Sox couldn’t figure out while the AL were taking batting practice against him every time he pitched but apparently, that’s what happened. Hilarious!
by martindownunder on Aug 27, 2009 5:09 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe
But I am not sold this would be much of a help. The Twins need to look at next year and how to make it better. Even if they win the division, they will get swept in the 1st round.
Yes, but
This would be a similar move to the Pavano pickup in that he won’t cost us much and could help push us just over the edge. I know some here think it’s BS but if you make it to the playoffs you never know what could happen. I don’t really believe we have much of a shot to make it anywhere in the playoffs but stranger things have happened.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I just dont see it
I would rather have one of our young starters get some regular starts in the rotation. I just dont see Penny as a significant improvement over letting one of Gabino/Duensing/Manship finish out the year.
by guinness junky on Aug 27, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I like that logic
I can agree that having one of our young guys get a few starts could be helpful but I still think it’s worth getting a cheap upgrade.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
1987
who thought much of an 85 win team in the playoffs back then?
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Twins claim Rich Harden of waivers?
http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/news/story?id=4427171
Mauer for Governor.
What would we need to give up?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Apparently the Rockies have also claimed Harden.
Being in the NL, they get first dibs. Shame, I would been very impressed with Smith had he landed Harden. Here’s hoping he still does.
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by Andersklasen on Aug 27, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Link?
The ESPN article mentions Colorado and San Francisco having interest, but sources only verified the Twins with a claim.
by Adam Peterson on Aug 28, 2009 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions
No link, just an inside source. I talked to someone who knew someone...
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by Andersklasen on Aug 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Concering Harden
The Twins in my opinion will probably Get Harden before the Rockies because we can offer ALOT and I mean ALOT more in prospect talent than the Rockies can.
Even so...
The team with the worst record in the same league of the team who put the player on waivers gets priority on any claims. In this case, the Rockies and Twins appear to be the only claiming teams, but the Rockies get the first shot. Unless Colorado rescinds its claim on Harden, there’s no shot for the Twins.
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by Andersklasen on Aug 28, 2009 2:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't think there was a chance anyway once the Rockies claimed him
A first an only dibs being in the same league.
I think it was a smart claim, hope we pursue him in the offseason. Plus, he’s Canadian…same as Bedard and one of our guys, a “Morny”?
by Adam Peterson on Aug 28, 2009 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Harden
is the type of pitcher the Twins need. We would need to send the Cubs some talent, but he is the type that could really help us go on a late season run, provided he stays healthy. When he is healthy, he is pretty much a Cy Young candidate…
by guinness junky on Aug 27, 2009 11:59 PM EDT reply actions
unless he comes REAL CHEAP
or signs an extension with the Twins, don’t want to do this.
“Over .500” has been the ‘immovable object’ for this team all year. While I’d love to win the division & get in the playoffs, any expensive deal done now would have to move the ceiling a whole lot higher than just “get in.” IMO, we’re 4 or 5 deals away from doing that.
Granted, you can’t pull off “4 or 5 deals” without doing the first couple … but I don’t like doing the last one 1st or 2nd.
Harden
I like it and hate it at the same time. I just don’t know what we’d have to give up for him. Harden could make the impact that would make us a bigger threat in the playoffs, however, we’re still 4.5 games out and I don’t want to mortgage the next couple years for a month of Harden and a high draft pick. However, because he’s a shoe in for a type A he’s gonna cost us something good. I just don’t know what.
It also gives us a chance to sign him ahead of other teams in the off season. I don’t know if it would happen but he would be one of the pitchers I’d love for the Twins to go after in the offseason but not if they had to give up their first round pick for him.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
me
I’d be ok with one of our AAAA starters Mulvey, Manship, Duensing, Gabino and a lower level prospect. We have so many higher ceiling pitchers comming up. I’d actually be ok with us giving up 2 of them and calling it good.
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Cubs aren't talking Harden trade
I like the claim, but it sounds unlikely that the Cubs deal him to anyone, much less that he falls to us. Whatever, though; speculation is one of my favorite parts of baseball.
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/cubs/1739492,CST-SPT-cubnt28.article
Well...
That article only said that the Cubs hadn’t been in contact yet with the claiming teams and that no trades were “in the works” (which makes sense, since they hadn’t talked to the claiming team), not that they weren’t considering a trade – lots of weasel words there.
If they weren’t at all considering a trade, they wouldn’t have put the guys on waivers in the first place.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Well, that's not strictly true
Teams put lots of players on waivers they don’t intend to trade, for lots of reasons. But, you’re right, of course, that the article doesn’t say they definitely won’t trade him. It is telling that they haven’t had any discussions about trading him, though. Anyway, the majority of what I’ve been reading is suggesting a trade is unlikely, and, of course, if an NL team has a claim ahead of us, the odds of a trade to the Twins are extremely slim.
The trade is unlikely
It’s a fishing expedition. If someone wants to give the Cubs better than what they can expect to get from a first rounder and a sandwich pick, they would probably take it. Nobody is likely to give them that much for a one-month rental.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Braden Looper?
He cleared waivers and is probably as good as Pavano. He has an $8M option for next season also which might actually be worth picking up.
I'd be ok with it if we can't get Penny
I don’t know about the option 8 mil might come in handy when trying to get a younger legit pitcher as well as trying to sign Mauer.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
+1
After we pay Joe, we might have $10 million left to fill at least two holes (rotation, middle infield). I wouldn’t want to blow it all in one shot on Looper.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Why won't the budget go up next year?
The revenues sure will. They have their best shot at the playoffs and Joe’s pay isn’t going up more for next season. An extension will make Joe expensive in 2011 onward. I agree you might not want to sign up with Braden Looper for $8M but you could do worse. I don’t think they should give up anything of value for him certainly.
Assuming they add $20 million to the budget
Joe gets half of that, probably. They could structure the extension to just start paying him $25 million a year from 2011 on. But the most likely outcome is they’ll rip up the 2010 contract and start paying him $22 million a year in 2010. That was they can spread the hardship out one more year. Assuming that’s the case, he’ll be in line for a $10 million raise over what he’s making in 2009. That leaves !$10 million for other things, like raises for Morneau and Cuddyer and a couple of FAs.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
But 2010 money is worth more than 2015 money
Why wouldn’t they delay the balloon payment and stick the money in the bank. We’re not likely to be deflationary going forward. If I was a Pohlad I’d get the money at 0% now, leave it in my bank and pay Joe with it 7 years later when the value is lower. That also allows me the full $20M to take a shot at the playoffs this upcoming season. Sort of pay me now AND pay me later.
Maybe he'll pull a Vernon Wells/Roy Halladay
Not in terms of production on the field, but in terms of agreeing to a back-heavy contract so that the team can get a few more players around him as soon as possible.
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by Andersklasen on Aug 28, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions

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