McGwire? Steroids? Whaaaaaaaat?
by Jesse on Jan 12, 2010 5:39 PM EST
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PrintWhat, exactly, are we supposed to do with this information?
Since hearing all about this yesterday I've gone back and forth on my thoughts. Right away it was the "no duh" reaction, next it was the "well, was it really classified as illegal at that time?" reaction, followed by the "well, good for him for coming out and admitting it" reaction and then, this morning, to the "why is he doing this now" reaction. Now it's the "why is McGwire apologizing for something that was just as much the fault of the joke of a drug policy MLB employed as much as it's his own fault" reaction.
It's sort of like I went through the five stages of grief, except it was the five stages of whatever the word is for not being surprised.
The summer that Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa belted it out in an effort to break Roger Maris's's single-season home run record I was 17-going-on-18 and, I have to be honest, I didn't really care whether those two thick slabs of meat were juicing or not. I was caught up in the biggest power display that side of Bonds' 73, it was something amazing and it had been building steadily since the strike-shortened '94 season. Albert Belle cranked 50 in '95, McGwire upped the ante in '96 with 52, he beat Ken Griffey Jr. by a narrow margin by blasting 58 in '97, and then literally blew the record away with 70 during the Summer of Swat.
It was an incredible era for a lot of guys. By comparison, before Belle's 50 in '95 only Cecil Fielder's 51 and George Foster's 52 topped that going back to 1977. But every summer from the strike through '98 there was somebody chasing Maris' record. America was caught up in the spectacle and, at the time, I was no different.
What I'm trying to say is that there is more than enough blame to go around. Personally, I have this innate desire to put things in order and to rank them, so that in my mind I can quantify those things. In this case there is no heirarchy for blame. Major League Baseball, it's owners, the players who juiced, the players who didn't, the fans who accepted that it was happening...it was all one big, major league backwards clusterf**k.
And we all know that's exactly what it was.
So yeah, good for McGwire for stepping up to the proverbial dish. He obviously feels bad, for whatever reason. I give him credit for sitting in front of Bob Costas on live television, because that couldn't have been easy. There's a reason his contemporaries haven't done it.
But...but what the hell? He only goes halfway there, because he denies that he took steroids for any other benefit other than recovery. Dear Mark: We all knew you were juicing in '98, and it was obvious that your results were due in no small part to said juice. Nobody buys the "recovery" argument. Love, Jesse.
Also ignored: the fact that healing faster is a benefit. It's almost like McGwire admitted he used PED's, but he thinks he wasn't really cheating. Yes, I know, MLB's drug policy was a joke, but it was still cheating. Eating yellow snow isnt against the law, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.
In the end I'm still of more than one mind about all this. A small part of me is glad for McGwire that he's at least come this far, part of me is a little pissed off because he's still lying (to himself, and therefore to everyone else)...but the biggest part of me just doesn't care. I know he juiced, I know lots of guys did, and I'm over it. I can't change the past, but we can still change the future. The good news is that baseball's drug policy is getting better, and that's a start. I was happy with that two days ago, and in spite of Big Mac's confession, I'm still happy with it now.
Now...how many days do I have to wait until I can play The Show '10 on my PlayStation?
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Hitting eras come and go...
“By comparison, before Belle’s 50 in ’95 the last hitter to hit or surpass that mark was George Foster 18 years prior.”
Forgot Cecil Fielder 1990. Pretty impressive total considering there was a mini-pitching era there between 1988-92.
There were previous eras of high-HR’s without steroids. Greenberg, Foxx, Wilson and Ruth all did it in the 1930s. In the 1990s, with expansion, new stadiums and smaller strike zones it wasn’t inconceivable that the HR rate wouldn’t have gone up anyways. Plus they had to face Clemens and Pettite who themselves were juicing.
Baseball looked the other way on this one. Everyone knew these guys were juicing and they let them keep playing. Can’t condone cheating, but when baseball sits back and lets the records fall well hard to feel too bad for baseball.
Thanks for the Fielder shot.
I missed that one. I’ll have to edit…
And yeah, I don’t feel bad for baseball. I feel bad for the sport as its own entity, but I certainly don’t feel bad for the players.
Coming Clean
Well, if he wants to be a field coach with the Cardinals, he has to put this line of questioning behind him before he takes the field.
We can argue all we want about the benefit of steroids in getting him homers (as McGwire says, you still have to have the timing to hit the ball).
We can say all we want about it not being an illegal substance at the time. And that what one does to their bodies is their own business.
The owners didn’t mind paying for it, baseball couldn’t see it happening, the fans were excited to see the ball flying out-of-the-park.
Reality time! Mark did it. Jose did it. A-Rod did it. At least 100 more did it (including arms). Some will accept it, some of us won’t…but does it deserve an asterix?
Now Mark just has to answer the question again-and-again during the spring training road trips and the first round of roadtrips with the Cards (will Minnesota writers ask him straight-out during the pre-season games)?
Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!
There will come a point, probably very soon, where McGwire becomes
regularly unavailable for interviews. After this initial round of interviews are over he will feel his obligation to Bud Selig is fullfilled.
The 2009 Pregame Picks Winner and Iron Man of Halos Heaven.com
Is it an obligation to Selig?
Or is it an obligation to himself? I think, if anything, Selig is just as responsible as McGwire for anything that happened under his watch. I give Selig credit for trying the change the system, because it is getting better, but he’s certainly not exempt from blame.
I do agree with you that once he goes through this stretch of interviews we’ll get a long and sustained silence from the McGwire camp. It will be interesting if he does end up doing anything with the Cardinals next season.
70*
Anybody surprised?
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jan 12, 2010 8:03 PM EST reply actions
Not at all.
It’s a shame that the game was compromised, but so very unsurprising.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -Earl Weaver
You can't move on, until you have something to move on from...
Mark McGwire leads the way for known users of steroids trying to get into the Hall of Fame. If he can’t do it, it means that dozens of other guys won’t be able to either. There is no reason he wouldn’t not be a 1st rounder, unless many, many writers thought so. Now that he’s admitted to it, he hoping that his vote total will slowly go up every year. A-Rod handled it the right way, own up to, take your lumps, and give people time to move. I think that’s where Big Mac is taking his cue.
"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"
I'm not sure he did this to get into the Hall.
Chances are he would have gotten in eventually had he not said anything. Now that he has I think that’s in doubt. Admitting you used steroids in the minds of the self-righteous BWAA voters probably does more harm than good.
He did this because he's St. Louis's new hitting coach
The media will be in the locker room after every game asking questions. With this admission out of the way and a reasonable amount of follow-up attention in the next month or two then he can allow the media to focus on the 2010 Cardinals and not 1990s McGwire.
You think he'll get into the hall eventually?
He’s got a lifetime BA under .270 and just 1626 hits. Of all the first basemen in the hall only Killebrew has a lower BA and only Frank Chance has fewer hits. He never won an MVP award and you can’t really say he was the best player of his era.
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 13, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure. He might at some point.
I think he would have gotten in before this admission…he broke the single-season home run record. But I don’t think he’ll get in now that it’s tarnished. Maybe years down the line by the veteran’s committee, but I have a hard time seeing how he’ll get voted in by the BWAA.
Maris isn't in the hall
True his lifetime numbers aren’t as good as McGwire, but just getting the single season record doesn’t guarantee anything.
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 13, 2010 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
That's true.
But his career numbers would have gotten him in I think. He cleared the 500-homer barrier, which is as arbitrary as the 300-win barrier for pitchers but the BWAA loves it.
And I have a soft spot for Maris, so I think he should be in. He broke the Babe’s record.
Counterpoint
He only had 1626 hits, sure… but he had 1316 walks. His career OBP was .394, just seven points behind Rickey Henderson. Also, more than a third of those hits were home runs – remember, he’s eighth all time in homers, and he had the greatest HR/AB rate in history. He never won an MVP, but he was in the top ten of voting five times and got votes five additional times, so he was certainly among the elite in his league more than once.
If no one had heard of steroids, a guy with Mark McGwire’s resume is an absolute slam-dunk Hall of Famer.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Ok
But this kind of gets the heart of his steroids problem. I mean, his OBP is inflated because of his power threat, which is a direct result of his steroid use. If the guy is winning gold gloves and slapping opposite field doubles Mauer-style (or even Bonds-style), then it’s easier to look past the steroids. But McGwire is fairly one-dimensional. You’re right, it’s a pretty good dimension, but it WAS never MVP-caliber and he doesn’t have anything else really to show for his career.
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 13, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions
I pretty much agree
Note the “if no one had heard of steroids” in my post – if we didn’t know or care about steroids at all, McGwire is an easy pick for the Hall of Fame. As it stands, I’d vote for him, but I’m one of the “I don’t care about steroids” folks; I’m sure his stats would look a lot different if he hadn’t used them (he may have been out of baseball in the mid-90s because of his injury problems), and I understand that reasonable people will disagree with me.
By the way, McGwire did win a Gold Glove, in 1990 – it interrupted what would’ve been a run of ten straight for Don Mattingly. Mattingly was hurt (yeah, shocking) and only played in about 100 games; no idea whether McGwire was actually all that great a fielder at the time, though.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Missed that gold glove
Thanks for pointing that out.
I realize what you were saying, and honestly I don’t care much about steroids either. For instance, I think Bonds should be a first ballot HOF, but that’s a different argument.
I’m not quite saying that McGwire’s steroid use alone should disqualify him. I’m just saying that his one-dimensionality is what makes him a borderline case for the hall, and it doesn’t help that his one dimension is exactly what PEDs help you with. I think Sosa is the same. He has more homers than McGwire after all. Maybe you think Sosa should be in the hall but I don’t really. I mean, if it were the homerun derby hall of fame then yeah it would be a no brainer, but baseball’s always been about more than just the long ball. All the phony moralizing and war-on-drugs crap will be somewhat worth it if the post-steroids era marks a renewed focus on all the other aspects of the game that make it so great.
Or in the immortal words of Big Mac, “Do you want the truth or do you want to watch me hit some dingers?”
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 14, 2010 3:26 AM EST up reply actions
Sosa
Kudos on the Simpsons quote – it’s even more awesome in retrospect that it was from McGwire. “Dingers!”
Sosa was even less one-dimensional than McGwire, especially earlier in his career – he had a couple 30-30 seasons and was an excellent defensive outfielder (kind of a Barry Bonds lite) before he bulked up and started hitting 60 homers a year. Also, Sosa’s Exhibit A for the position that patience can be taught, since his walk rate also soared around the same time as he started hitting homers.
I mean, if it were the homerun derby hall of fame then yeah it would be a no brainer, but baseball’s always been about more than just the long ball.
I’ll agree with the “about more than just the long ball” part – I’m a guy who loves seeing stolen bases and liked to use the Cardinals in RBI Baseball because of their speed – but the fact is that hitting a home run is the most valuable thing that a hitter can do, and it seems a bit silly to penalize them for doing it well at the expense of other things. Taking that logic to the extreme, Babe Ruth wasn’t necessarily a Hall of Fame hitter, because he primarily hit home runs and drew walks while being a liability in the field and on the basepaths (he attempted a lot of steals and got caught about half the time, including once to end the World Series).
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
eh...
It was just pointed out in another thread that Nick Punto has a healthy walk rate. What are pitchers afraid of there? McGwire had a healthy walk rate his entire career. Its a two-way street, if pitchers knew they didn’t have to throw him strikes, he would have hit fewer homers.
Well Nick Punto
was intentionally walked once last year, Mark McGwire was intentionally walked 28 times in 1998. That’s not counting “unintentional intentionals” for McGwire. So, I mean, it looks like pitchers knew they didn’t have to throw him strikes.
Also, who the f—- intentionally walked Nick Punto?!?
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 14, 2010 11:32 AM EST up reply actions
Answer: Jeff Suppan
On June 23, the Twins were leading the Brewers 4-3 as they came up to hit in the top of the third inning. After Morneau lined out to lead it off, Cuddyer laced a liner to left and then beat out a relay to second on a soft grounder by Crede. Delmon doubled in Cuddyer, leaving Crede at third and Young on second.
Suppan intentionally walked Punto to face Liriano, who struck out looking. Gomez was the next hitter and drove in two with a single to make it 7-3…which was the final score.
He also has an unhealthy strikeout rate
Most of the time, he takes pitches hoping for a free pass, then swings through a 3-2 pitch in his eyes.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
To claim that he used for his whole career and yet it didn't affect his perfromance or numbers
That’s laughable. If it didn’t affect him, why did he use them? Why did he continue to use them through his whole career? He knew he couldn’t do what he did without them. He would have been Kraig Kusik without steroids. He’s still lying. Just in his mind, he’s coming clean.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yep
I read one line of his that, in effect, said, “I regret having taken steroids.” BS. If he hadn’t taken steroids he would be a footnote on somebody’s stat sheet somewhere. Not to mention the lack of zeros to the left of the decimal point in his bank account. He doesn’t regret it at all. Only how he handled the situation when it all blew up.
Stats
I don’t think Mcgwire would have been a nothing player without the steroids. Maybe he would have hit 500 homers instead of 580 and 55 instead of 70.
I look at it this way: he was downright cheating in an era when many players were cheating to push themselves further away from the median of ability. Any numbers taken from that era have to be taken in the context of the era. He was further away from the median in power than anyone else for awhile. Ie, he was the best of the cheaters. Statistically, his accomplishments are still impressive, because he was still the biggest slugger from an inflated era. I remain impressed with Big Mac.
But should he be in the Hall? Well, I’d probably vote for him, but I’d do so expecting that he would not get to 75% and feeling pretty fine with that. It’s probably still too soon to open the floodgates on the steroid era, we should wait a few years then look back and try to get our heads around what the era meant. Maybe in a decade or two, baseball will have healed enough to view it as just another era with an explosion or contraction of offense.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
by AdamOnFirst on Jan 12, 2010 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
Without the 'roids
I firmly believe that McGwire would have been a significantly less impactful player. He wasn’t a good batting average guy but he did have a good eye at the plate and yeah, he did have power. But without their help to regenerate his muscles and without the additional support in power, I doubt he would have played until he was 37 and I doubt that his career highs would have been so high. I know it’s totally subjective, but I’d have thought he’d have been closer to a 380-career home run guy than a 580-career home run guy.
I agree
I could see a 10-year career with 30 HR a year and an .800 OPS. A good career. But nobody would be voting for the guy for the Hall of Fame were it not for Steroids, imho.
I think people underestimate what steroids do to you. Some examples:
- Matt Lawton ook steroids once. That day he hit a homer on the first pitch he saw and added two doubles.
- Roger Clemens was in serious decline. He started taking steroids, and he was back to being the Rocket again, well into his 40s.
- Barry Bonds started taking steroids in 99 and doubled his power overnight, continuing it well into his 40s.
- Jose Canseco took steroids, his twin brother didn’t. His twin brother was a AAAA player. Canseco was an MVP.
- Jason and Jeremy Giambi had much the same skills, body type and background until Jason came to Oakland and started taking steroids.
- Rafeal Palmeiro was a slap hitter in Chicago. He went to Texas, learned steroids from Dr. Juan Gonzales, and started hitting 30+ homers every year.
- Sammy Sosa was a scrawny kid with a lot of raw tools, not unlike Carlos Gomez. He added 30 lbs of muscle one offseason and, well you know the rest.
Steroids really improves strength, reflexes and recovery time. Those are the things that make an above average player into a star.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Ozzie took roids
At least according to Jose. Jeremy Giambi also juiced.
FP Santangelo and dozens of scrubs with no power also took steroids. At this point it doesn’t really matter. It’s like baseball statistics before the spitball was outlawed. There’s an asterisk there, there’s an asterisk in front of Babe Ruth because of segregation, in front of Roger Maris because of expansion. Baseball numbers just aren’t comparable without adjusting for run scoring in that era.
Wait Matt Lawton took steroids once
and hit a homer on the first pitch he saw? That sounds like a cartoon to me; where are you getting that info from?
my floor is looking pretty dirty... BETTER GET OUT THE BROOM!!!
by natetheskate on Jan 13, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed
I have also never heard that story before. In addition, I’ve never heard a claim that steroids have much immediate effect – they’re useful for building muscle because they improve endurance and recovery, but you don’t just take them before a game and get a power boost like they’re mushrooms in Super Mario Bros.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
That's his story
When he tested positive. He said “a teammate” advised him to do it. He was really struggling with injuries and about done. Then he took a shot from one of the Yankee trainers, hit a homer on the first pitch he saw, and tested positive that day.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
If shot = HR
Jose Canseco would have hit 162 HR.
So would McGuire
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
who cares
My thoughts.
1) You can’t use asterisks by players, only by the era.
2) Players were cheating, and they earned a lot of money, and earned the owners a lot of money, but they stole a lot from players who weren’t cheating (if they exist)
3) No players, at this point, can prove that they didn’t cheat. It is ridiculous to go around trying to guess (e.g. “oh wow, Griffey’s the best, he would never cheat”). Getting caught isn’t the same as breaking the rule
4) The players association was dumb. They should have, immediately, stood up and said “yeah, we’re upset about steroids. We want serious testing. In return, we want recreational drugs off the testing list”. It is ridiculous that baseball players get tested for pot. This is essentially a privacy issue, and I don’t understand why the players assocation, which has a lot of power, can’t get that off the list.
5) But I only took it for 3 years, and I’ve been clean ever since is not an excuse. Has the Arnold shrunk a lot since he quit? I know people who’ve juiced, and it makes a huge difference, in recovery, appearance, and strength. The effects also last long after you’re done (like forever).
6) It’s stupid worrying about who did and who didn’t. Let’s face it, I don’t trust any REALLY good player in the last 20 years of being clean. Fair or not, no-one has hit anywhere near where Pujols has without juicing. He may not be juicing now, but it’s reasonable to be suspicious at least about whether he ever did. Also, I do think that baseball should try to pressure players who admit it to say where they got it (even if not from whom).
7) If I’m growing up in latin america, I’m taking a bucketfull of HGH, starting from very young. A year or two before I want to sign, I’ll start cycling off. Baseball needs to find a way to start testing college, high school and foreign players much younger, because there is big money to be had in cheating. It doesn’t necessarily make you a major league baseball player, but it makes you better.
by snolls on Jan 12, 2010 8:53 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
you got it
abso-lutely-dutely. EVERYTHING needs to be looked at it in the context of the era in which it took place.
So a hitter on steroids...
Has now admitted to facing pitchers on steroids. Big Deal! !! This just in…guys in high school smoked pot and scammed on chicks who also smoked pot.
I support wiping McGwire from the record books because what he did has no context to baseball’s history, but let’s not fool ourselves about what was happening then. He was only doing what a majority of other players were doing. Who is the bigger douche? Mark McGwire, or a guy like Joe Borowski? Who mysteriously went from thowing 85 to 93 in the Mexican League? Then mysteriously went back to 85 when drug testing was mandated.
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
But he does have a context in baseball's history.
It’s important to remember what Mac did during his career, so that shit like that doesn’t hit the fan in baseball again.
Without roids
McGwire could have been anything from an early burnout, to mediocre, to not-quite-as-good but still hall-worthy. I don’t know how anyone (least of all McGwire himself) can sort this out.
Personally, I’d let him twist on the vine for a while until his 14th or 15th year of eligibility to see if some more years give any more perspective on his candidacy. I sort of doubt I’d ever come around on him. If you look at his impact on the game beyond the numbers, he’s a guy who was very much the poster boy for steriods. I even think there’s some account that Bonds started juicing essentially because he was jealous of McGwire. In other words, he wasn’t just a part of the steroids era, he was a popularizer and catalyst for the era. And then he was a miserable denier for years and years.
His 15th year of eligibility is... years away
I think everyone is reasonably outraged this week, but we’ll see how this holds up over the years to come.
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