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Around SBN: Randy Moss A Raven?

Joe C. says it's not unlikely.

about 2 years ago Hosken_powell_autograph_tiny RandBall's Stu 115 comments 0 recs  | 

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Really?

This would be a great signing to our bench! However, would this rule out the possibility of adding Lopez/Hudson? Thome expects a drop in payroll…coming to the Twins he better. Somewhere around $3 million for Thome and then stretch the budget a tad for Lopez, at $4 million.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 22, 2010 3:59 PM EST reply actions  

$3M?!

Thome’s not worth more than the minimum anymore, maybe $1M. There are a ton of options for a veteran DH & some of them can actually play the field – Jermaine Dye, Randy Winn, Garrett Anderson, Russell Branyan, Jonny Gomes, Xavier Nady, Gary Sheffield, Matt Stairs, Jason Giambi, etc. Thome is a replacement player with a good attitude.

by DJL44 on Jan 22, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Not that bad

His OBP and SLG from last year would have been 3rd and 5th respectively on the Twins last year. He doesn’t hit for a high avg but he takes a ton of walks and hits the ball really, really hard. He’s a modern day Killebrew.

by Gunnarthor on Jan 22, 2010 4:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Jermaine Dye

can play the field…excuse me while I snicker…

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 22, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

In a pinch

Thome is actually physically unable to play defense at this point. It isn’t just that he’s bad like Dye.

by DJL44 on Jan 22, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Lopez or Hudson at 2nd needs to be the number one priority

Filling any other holes instead will feel like a waste of money in comparison.

by sploorp on Jan 23, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I wonder

if this is a precursor to a move (Kubel/Young) for an infielder/SP. Of course, the other way to look at this: Kubel – everyday LF, Young DH’s vs. LHP/platoons with Kubel, Thome DH’s vs. RHP….

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 22, 2010 4:04 PM EST reply actions  

that makes a little more sense

but with how strapped we are for defensive flexibility, particularly in the outfield, I’d be kinda surprised at a Thome signing. He’s no Ramon Ortiz, though, that’s for sure.

formerly known in these parts as adamb

by ravenfly on Jan 22, 2010 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

he'd be nice to have on the team as a bench bat

it would just likely be a tremendous waste of limited resources

by ckb on Jan 22, 2010 5:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Hmm...

On the one hand, it’s wonderfully ironic and I’d love to have a guy like that on the bench. On the other hand, I’m not sure I see him embracing a bench role at a discounted price. If it is part of a larger plan, it makes a lot more sense to me, though the whole thing is still rather puzzling…Kubel’s beard better not be going anywhere. IMO, he hasn’t even come close to reaching his value yet – too early to trade him! And we’re losing characters left and right! Kubel’s beard is about all we have left!!

by dctwin on Jan 22, 2010 4:08 PM EST reply actions  

Ooh..

Maybe Joe is secretly a huge fan of Jim and signing him to be a bench player is part of his contract requirements. Obviously, then, the most logical way to look at this is to assume that Joe’s lifetime contract with the Twins is about to be announced. :)

by dctwin on Jan 22, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Don't make me have hope for that...

It’s just not fair any more.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -Earl Weaver

by fischean on Jan 22, 2010 5:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Big distraction

Maybe all these rumors about Washburn and Thome and other junk are just ways to drive down the price on Hudson and Lopez. I hope that’s the truth.

by DJL44 on Jan 22, 2010 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

Yes

Thome on a roster that already has Kubel slated to DH.

Nice fit.

by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 22, 2010 4:37 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe

I think that would slide Kubel into the 4th outfielder role, which he could do. Problem being Span would have to play virtually all the games in CF, as noone else could really handle that. He would give us some pop off the bench, which we could definately use, but at what price…If it helps Mauer think we’re serious enough about winning to sign an extension, good enough reason for me. lol we could definately do worse… Better than having Harris or whoever pinch-hitting late in games.

by Neil34 on Jan 22, 2010 5:23 PM EST reply actions  

Kubel OPSed over .900 last year

that’s far too good to waste as a 4th outfielder. Besides, aren’t 4th OFers supposed to be more so defensive specialists than sluggers? Usually the sluggers become the DH because they suck at fielding.

by FloridaownsFSU on Jan 23, 2010 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

At this point ...

Adding any player that can’t play the field is a waste of money no matter how well he hits.

by sploorp on Jan 23, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

As long as

we still acquire a 2B and/or a 3B, I don’t see how this could ever be a bad idea. If its between Thome and Hudson/Lopez, you have to pick the everyday player. But I’m okay with DH-ing Young against lefties and Thome against righties as well. We would KILL RHP even more than we already do. And Gardy loves to pinch-hit, we all know that.

In short, as long as we still make a move for a starting infielder, signing Thome would be ingenious.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 5:24 PM EST reply actions  

That's just it ...

Signing Thome would probably mean the Twins are done this season – unless they offer Crede another incentive laden contract.

If I knew it would be Thome AND … I would be much more supportive. I could even get behind Washburn if I knew they were also adding Hudson or Lopez.

Unfortunately, if they sign Thome, that will probably be that and Smith will go into the season patting himself on the back for what he thinks was a winter well done.

by sploorp on Jan 23, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions  

even at the stage we are at

it has been a good winter! I don’t know how you can not say that it has not been a good winter for the Twins.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 23, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

you are so eager to disagree with someone

you double negatived yourself right into nonsense.

And he didn’t even say that it was not a good winter for the Twins.

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 23, 2010 7:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Double Negative

There are actually 3 negatives in that sentence, so wouldn’t that be positive then? :)

It’s been an okay winter, but let’s not say it’s good just because we’ve resigned a 3rd starter and traded for Hardy. That’s a very positive step, but we still lack a #1 pitcher and we still need another starting infielder.

by TheBlackFreighter on Jan 23, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

that is what

I was going for…often times we see Gardy and Punto use the triple negative….

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 24, 2010 8:11 AM EST up reply actions  

I haven't never not seen that.

"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?" -Joe Kapp

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jan 25, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

I couldn't disagree less

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 25, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

hahaha

neither could I not be havent starting this whole non-senseless thing…what?

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 25, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Puntot/Tolbert

Aren’t they fast enough to cover CF in a pinch. If Span is down for more than a few days he can be put on the DL and Pridie can be called up from AAA.

by Jon Kammerer on Jan 22, 2010 5:26 PM EST reply actions  

Punto

has played in the outfield for the Twins. I wouldn’t be overly concerned about a backup CF, they’re a dime-a-dozen.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Where/how does he fit?

It certainly would be a nice luxury to have a bopper that could hit late in games, but Thome has zero defensive value. He can even adequately play 1B?

Unless there is a trade, one has to figure the following players are locks on the roster:
C: Joe Mauer, Jose Morales (or 2nd catcher in case of sustained injury)
1B: Justin Morneau
2B: Nick Punto
SS: JJ Hardy
3B: Brendan Harris
OF/DH: Denard Span, Michael Cuddyer, Jason Kubel, Delmon Young
SP: Scott Baker, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn, Carl Pavano
RP: Joe Nathan, Jon Rauch, Matt Guerrier, Jesse Crain, Jose Mijares

That leaves 3 spots each for pitching and fielders:
P: Francisco Liriano, Pat Neshek, Clay Condrey, Glen Perkins, Brian Duensing
IF/OF: Matt Tolbert, Alexi Casilla, Jason Pridie (or 4th outfielder)

I think we can safely assume that Liriano and Neshek (if he’s healthy) are near locks and Condrey looks like a logical addition after his signing. Duensing would make a lot of sense, too, however he may get squeezed.

For fielders, it’s obvious we need a 4th outfielder whether its Jason Pridie or not. They’ll also need a backup infielder and that’s where Tolbert comes in.

So now we have one spot left. Do you use that on Jim Thome, or do you sign a 2nd/3rd baseman? If you do both, do you go with a 6-man bullpen or do you get rid of Tolbert’s flexibility?

by TheBlackFreighter on Jan 22, 2010 5:29 PM EST reply actions  

Tolbert

is the same player as Punto. Almost exactly, but for a fraction of the cost. If you sign a 2B/3B, there is obviously no room for Tolbert on the 25-man roster. You could live with Kubel and Punto being your backup outfielders, and Pridie would be in AAA if needed, anyways. Remember, Harris can play all 4 infield positions too.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 5:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Tolbert

I agree, the only difference is Punto is more of a veteran, but they are nearly identicle. I really wish we didn’t have his contract right now, we would be much more inclined to sign a big name I’m sure…

by Neil34 on Jan 22, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree completely. His contract is similar to what I would want to give someone like Lopez, ironically. Punto is nice to have, but not at the price we have him at.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 6:25 PM EST up reply actions  

I do not agree

They are the same except Punto is far superior in the field and is more patient at the plate. Tolbert will probably hit for higher averages over his career, but Punto is definitely a superior player at this point. (This says a lot more about Tolbert than it does about Punto)

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 22, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions  

I do, however, agree that Punto is overpaid

I just think he’s better than Tolbert and Casilla. Not 4 million dollars worth better, but better.

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 22, 2010 7:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He's not overpaid by all that much, that's what's bizarre.

If he’s a 2-win player agains this season, $4 million isn’t a bad price.

It would just be better if we had someone under team control who could do what Punto does as good as Punto does them (this doesn’t include bunting), because in theory most middle infielders should be able to A) field well and B) take pitches.

by Jesse on Jan 22, 2010 7:14 PM EST up reply actions  

ha!

Nick Punto is a classic example for a little league coach to say, “See, if you do this little crap perfectly you just may make $4mil/yr. Athleticism/ceilings be damned.”

by archie2227 on Jan 23, 2010 1:56 AM EST up reply actions  

Thome splits

As 1B (3820 AB) .282/.412/.587
As 3B (1624 AB) .289/.404/.533
As DH (2180 AB) .262/.393/.528
As PH (80 AB) .213/.333/.338

I say this because Baseball Prospectus recently had an article showing that hitters are significantly worse coming off the bench. Somewhat worse as DH, but much much worse as pinch hitters.

Although, while im at it:
At the metrodome: .321/.406/.633

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 6:27 PM EST reply actions  

Those 80 ABs are not enough to draw much of a conclusion

But yeah, pinch hitters do not hit as well as every day players. It is good to know that he can mash as a DH, meaning he’d probably be fine as a pinch hitter. He’d be pinch hitting for awful hitters anyway, so he’d be a big upgrade.

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 22, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree

80 ABs is far too small of a sample size, i apologize for any misleading there.

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

How much of it could be explained

by the circumstances that would find a player sitting on the bench to be called upon as a pinch hitter.

For a player of Thome’s caliber, wouldn’t all his PH appearances basically fall into three categories:

1. early and late in his career, before he established himself and after his decline
2. coming off an injury
3. playing for an AL team at an NL team in interleague

You could argue all three could suppress a player’s performance

by ckb on Jan 22, 2010 7:56 PM EST up reply actions  

agreed

But all his ABs this year will fall under the first category “late in his career”
And like I already said, very small sample size.

As a side note, he had 24 pinch hitting appearances (i presume mostly with the Dodgers), and only had 4 hits (all singles) and only walk.

Small sample size again, but interesting

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 23, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

This is odd

I suppose you could construct something of a 3 man platoon (Kubel, Young, Thome) for 2 positions (LF, DH), but using a roster spot on someone who a) can’t play a position, and b) isn’t going to be your everyday DH is a tough luxury to afford in these days of 12 man pitching staffs.

by Eric in Madison on Jan 22, 2010 7:09 PM EST reply actions  

Yeah.

I wouldn’t mind this if there were an open spot. Right now I’m not sure what to make of this.

by Jesse on Jan 22, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions  

just curious

couldn’t he play some 1B?

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 7:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Not anymore

Thome is done playing 1B

by DJL44 on Jan 22, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

haha

thats sad, he can’t even play 1B

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 11:58 PM EST up reply actions  

sad but true

I’m sure he’d like the AL to allow him to ride a cart around the bases instead of walking the course basepaths

by caluofmn on Jan 23, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

All he needs to do is get to 1B

I’m assuming he’ll be mainly a pinch hitter. If he doesn’t hit it out of the park he’ll be pinch-run for as soon as he gets to first. I would welcome Thome to the team… in September when rosters expand.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t see this as being a horrible fit the more I think about it. Certainly not ideal, but if we can get him for super cheap, I think it could work. Delmon, Cuddy, Thome, and Kubel would share the RF, LF, and DH spots. Obviously Thome would just DH. Out of the 486 games for those three positions, You play Cuddy and Kubel 140 games each, and Delmon and Thome 100 games each. Kubel would essentially be the 4th OF, and play right or left when Thome DHs. Then Pridie can be the 5th OF, and only start like 10 games and be a defensive replacement/pinch runner in others.

Like I said, certainly not Ideal, but it should work. For under 2 mil, it’s probably a big enough upgrade to make a difference. I think I’d prefer someone like Endy Chavez though….

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 22, 2010 7:11 PM EST reply actions  

Actually the guy I'd really like is Jim Edmonds

but I think he’d find more playing time elsewhere, so I doubt he’d sign with us.

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 22, 2010 7:12 PM EST up reply actions  

If you're going for defensive backup, Chavez is the way to go.

If you want a guy who can actually get some playing time and not kill you, go with Winn.

Edmonds makes me wonder. He turns 40 in June and already had diminishing offensive returns BEFORE being a full year removed from the majors. Also, in 2008 his defense was horrible. I’m not really too intrigued by him.

by Jesse on Jan 22, 2010 7:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Winn and Chavez

are really the only two viable options. I would lean towards Winn, as he can provide some offense and even steal some bases. Chavez is really like a poor man’s Span or an older and obviously more accomplished Pridie. Winn would be a “nice veteran bat off the bench”, as Gardy would say. And he would love that.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 7:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Are either of these guys any better than Pridie

I would take him over Winn for sure, probably chavez…

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Are you serious?

Even with a significant decline, Winn hit as well last year in the National League as Pridie did in AAA. He’s also a definite defensive plus as a corner OF (something we could use) and definitely capable of filling in at center.

by DK on Jan 23, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Definitely..

No question, I would take Winn over Pridie. Especially if cost was not a factor. Winn is an established player, where as Pridie struggled to hit at AAA last lear. He would have been in the top 3 on the Twins in steals and he didn’t even play full-time last year. If it came down to Chavez or Pridie, I think there is no question that Chavez is the better player, but when money is a factor, I might just go with Pridie.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 8:08 PM EST reply actions  

Definitely not

Cost is a factor.
By ‘established player’ do you mean ‘declining 35 year old outfielder’?
His fielding is good, but so is pridie’s
He had a .302 wOBA…

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 22, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

But

its not like it would be a significant cost. And who would you rather have pinch-hitting (especially if we don’t have Thome), Winn, or Jason Pridie? Its not even close. And for a declining 35-yr old he plays above average defense and is very fast.

by bbeeck on Jan 23, 2010 9:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Pridie

CHONE rates Pridie’s D as +7 in CF. That makes him something like a +15 LF. If he never hits and only plays D in the 8th and 9th innings he’s a 0.6 WAR player. Pridie isn’t a good everyday player but because he is a plus defender he can have a lot of value off the bench.

by Jon Kammerer on Jan 22, 2010 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

Right,

which is why I’d just as soon take the cheaper Pridie over Chavez. But if we can have Winn, I’ll take the bat and decent defense.

by bbeeck on Jan 22, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

What is CHONE using?

They don’t have PBP stats for AAA and his sample size in the majors is tiny.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

TotalZone

which has pretty huge error bars in the minor leagues, considering, as you said, there is no PBP data.

by Steven Ellingson on Jan 24, 2010 12:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Scouting reports

I’ve read BA reports and stuff from Kevin Goldstein that also rate his defense as plus in CF. In general UZR and totalzone fall out like this: Plus, plus = + 15, plus = +7, average = 0, minus = -7, minus, minus = -15. A CF usually gains +8-10 when moving to a corner based on positional adjustments. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say a true CF would likely be a +15 LF, look at the UZR differences between Span in a corner vs CF.

by Jon Kammerer on Jan 24, 2010 8:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Delmon insurance

the great thing about having Thome would be insurance in case Delmon Young flames out. You really don’t know what you get with him, and if bad Delmon shows up and sticks around all year, who do you have to replace him? Right now, nothing. All our eggs are in the Delmon Young basket. Does that make you feel comfortable?

If Thome is around (and healthy…), if Delmon is dragging the team down, Kubel becomes the starting left fielder, and Thome becomes the DH. Without Thome, you get three months of .218 and wait for Young’s fall surge. Or, Kubel takes LF, Harris DH’s, Punto plays third, Casilla starts at second, and you hang your head in shame when your 7, 8 and 9 batters come up in the playoffs.

by by jiminy on Jan 22, 2010 9:09 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Delmon insurance. I like it. I really hope Delmon finally “gets it” this year, but I feel a lot more comfortable counting on Kubel-Span-Cuddyer-Thome in my OF/DH spots.

by Adam Peterson on Jan 22, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

plus

if Delmon gets it this year, we trade Delmon and offer arbitration to Thome, who should have Type B status. Revere takes over Delmon’s spot in LF in 2011 and we get a player/s in return for Delmon, and a sandwich draft pick.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 22, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

good point

This makes it make more sense. What would be our other option? If Delmon, Kubel, Cuddy get hurt…
Morales as our everyday DH? Pridie starting in the outfield?

We really don’t have much depth

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 23, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Didn't think of that

On a team with Thome and Kubel fighting for DH time I would guess that squeezes Mauer out of DH at-bats.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Even if not insurance

Gardy played Kubel in LF in 58 games last year and with Gomez gone that number will not be changing much so if Thome were to start DH for 58 games…….and a few more just to give Kubel a day off or two I think that would fit. I would be a heck of a lot better than some of those years when Gardy would have to pencil in Tiny or Punto into the DH slot….LMAO

richman

by anderson800 on Jan 23, 2010 7:17 AM EST up reply actions  

DH Mauer 58 games instead

They will want Mauer’s bat in the lineup.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Who catches?

Morales is hurt. So that leaves Drew Butera or Wilson Ramos. Butera can’t hit. Ramos is very raw. Even when Morales gets back, I don’t see him as anything but a guy to give Mauer a break for 30-40 games or so.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 23, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Morales won't be hurt the whole season

I agree that you won’t see Mauer at DH until Morales gets back. Mauer was at DH plenty last year, I don’t see why they won’t do that again. His bat is too valuable to bench.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 9:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, but their bench would be really thin with Butera, Thome, Harris, and Pridie

Harris can only play third effectively. Neither Pridie nor Butera can hit much. Thome can’t field. Gardy would be strapped.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 23, 2010 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

If Thome was willing to sign in the $3M range, I'd do it in a heartbeat

That would leave us with Mauer-Morneau-Punto-Hardy-Harris-Kubel-Span-Cuddyer-Thome as the starting 9, with Young, Morales/Ramos/Butera, and Tolbert/Casilla on the bench. One open bench spot, assuming we carry 12 pitchers.

Now, we could go one of two directions with that bench spot. If we sign a 2B (my preferred option, assuming as are willing to add around $8M more in payroll, perhaps a stretch), then Punto goes to 3B/Bench, Tolbert to AAA, and Casilla is waived (I think he’s out of options). We STILL end up with an open bench spot for our backup CF at that point. If we decide to save payroll and go with Tolbert/Casilla, then we fill the bench spot right away with the backup CF.

The main reason I like this scenario, it means we don’t count on Delmon (remember, he’s never provided above replacement level value with the Twins) as an every day starter. Kubel-Span-Cuddyer-Thome gives us our best possible OF/DH combination, IMO. Kubel or Young can take over as DH when Thome needs a rest, and heck, Young-Span-Kubel-Thome with Cuddyer moving to 1B on those days when Morneau needs a rest.

If we were also able to land a real 2B, I’d be downright giddy with Punto-Young-Backup CF-Backup C on our bench, and solid 2+ WAR players at all positions.

by Adam Peterson on Jan 22, 2010 9:12 PM EST reply actions  

Maybe Bill Smith has no intention of signing him, but is trying to help Thome out.

Other teams will raise their offers to him. The team that signs him will have less money for other players, which will leave the Twins one of the few teams left still signing FA.

No? Okay.

by benhertz on Jan 22, 2010 9:19 PM EST reply actions  

how about ...

Thome = 2 million
Lopez from Seattle = ? (I don’t know his salary but I remember the rumor)

for Liriano = 1.6 million and
Young for 2.6 million

That would = 2.2 million going towards 2b or 3b pay depending on where Lopez would play and Kubel goes to LF

Doofenschmirtz Evil, INC.
Phineas and Ferb

by doofus on Jan 22, 2010 11:07 PM EST reply actions  

I like the idea of lopez

but i think giving up liriano and young for him is a bit expensive.
also, i don’t want kubel in left, he’s not a great fielder, not that delmon is…

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jan 23, 2010 12:09 AM EST up reply actions  

No thanks on Lopez

I definitely would not trade Liriano straight up for Lopez. Delmon, possibly, it would at least be close. Definitely not both of them together for Lopez. Lopez projects as a 2-2.5 WAR player, a little below average offensively (with potential to be slightly above average moving out of Safeco), around average defensively. He’s not a bad option, comparable to Kouzmanoff. I wonder if Seattle would be interested in Perkins + prospect for Lopez. Seattle’s rotation, while solid at the top with Felix and Lee, is really thin at the bottom. Perkins might be a fit.

by Adam Peterson on Jan 24, 2010 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

My calculations (*pushing glasses up nose*)

So, I’ve got a nerdy little spreadsheet of the Twins offense that gives a % of playing time estimation for each player versus a L or R handed starter and gives a projected team OPS based on how well the projected lineup would do against a L or R hander (I’m using CHONE for the projections plus a home-cooked L/R adjustment). Using J. Christianson’s roster (http://www.startribune.com/blogs/82398042.html?elr=KArks47cQiUUUU), sans Thome, I get an OPS of

767 OPS against lefties (162 games at a 767 OPS = about 796 runs)
777 against righties (817 runs)

With Thome taking Butera’s roster spot (I wasn’t exactly sure who’d be axed for him) and giving him what I thought would be his share of PA against L and R, I got:

772 OPS against L (807 runs)
786 OPS against R (836)

So I’d see him adding something like 10 or 15 runs to the offense (which is, what, 1 to 1.5 wins?). What he costs us in defensive flexibility, I’m unsure. But if it’s just the matter of having Kubel in left a little more in place of Delmon, are we really losing anything?

by Luke in MN on Jan 22, 2010 11:27 PM EST reply actions  

There are

If he’s very cheap, there are dumber things the Twins could do, probably.

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 23, 2010 3:17 AM EST reply actions  

Call me an idealist

But I’d rather not have one of the few moves made over the winter that are best defined as “we probably could have done something dumber.”

by GACTwinFan on Jan 23, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Bench depth

I thought one had to actually be able to put on a glove to be a bench player. The current bench is defensively challenged as it is. And with 12 pitchers, there’s really no room for a guy who only pinch hits against right handed pitchers. Maybe Kubes could move to left against righties and make room for Thome to DH. That might be worth something. But not as pinch hitter.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 23, 2010 11:50 AM EST reply actions  

+1

No room until September

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions  

If Thome in the DH spot effectively replaces Delmon in LF

with Kubel playing more often in the OF, then it’s a pretty good upgrade for the Twins. Defensively, it’s a wash, as Kubel’s about as poor as Delmon in the field. Offensively, even with Thome’s declining numbers as he gets older, there’s about a 40 point difference in wOBA between Delmon and Thome. Over 500 at bats, that projects to 20 additional runs.

Sure, we’d be less likely to see Delmon reach his “potential” as an every day player, but IMO, we’re at least as likely to see continued poor performance from Delmon than we are to see a breakout.

by Adam Peterson on Jan 24, 2010 8:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Not ideal defensively

But, it would allow Cuddy to spell Morneau at 1st as well, while still retaining a big bat in the lineup.

by Han Joelo on Jan 23, 2010 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

Morneau would probably DH most times he doesn’t play at first. Gardy likes to use the DH spot to rest Mauer and Morneau without taking their bats out of the lineup, so I don’t know how many starts at DH Thome could really get.

by ben2 on Jan 23, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Off the top of my head, I think every closer in the AL Central is right handed. And I can only think of a handful of left handed starters in the AL Central (Buehrle, Danks, Laffey, Robertson, ?). Maybe that is what Bill Smith is thinking? Thome could get a lot of key 9th inning at bats and a lot of starts at DH within the division?

by Brad B. on Jan 23, 2010 12:34 PM EST reply actions  

True, better to be skewed towards RHPs, but

I know last year teams rejiggered their rotations or dug deep into their pockets to find a lefty—any lefty—to pitch v. the Twins (Twins had the 3rd most ABs against lefties in baseball, although still more than twice as many ABs v. R). Of course that’s a good thing in a way, cuz you’re forcing teams to throw out a lower-quality starter.

by Luke in MN on Jan 23, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Twins interested in Hudson and Lopez as well.

Joe C mentions that the Twins have had “internal discussions” about Miguel Tejada, Orlando Hudson and Felipe Lopez as well. It sounds like Tejada has struck a deal with the Orioles this morning, but its good to hear that the Twins are perhaps finally thinking like the rest of the blogosphere.

Of course the note also came with the disclaimer that they’re waiting for prices to come down. It will be interesting to see how much Tejada signed for and whether that will knock down prices on OHud and Lopez as Miguel himself was asking for a pricey deal.

by TheBlackFreighter on Jan 23, 2010 1:29 PM EST reply actions  

1 year $6M for Tejada

Not a bad deal for Tejada, the price on the other 2 guys just dropped $1M.

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Tejada

It sounds like he gets some incentives as well. I think Lopez/OHud are now looking like 1/6 or 1/5 with an option and buyout. How happy is Placido Polanco right now!

by TheBlackFreighter on Jan 23, 2010 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

filled w/ something…and obviously close to bursting…

by caluofmn on Jan 23, 2010 9:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Ew.

Why must you remind us?!

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all." -Earl Weaver

by fischean on Jan 23, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

wow

I was encouraged to see Joe C’s note that the Twins are really considering Hudson and Lopez. If one of them could really be had for 1/5, wow!

by by jiminy on Jan 23, 2010 8:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Where

did he say that? I can’t find it. Considering we’re paying Punto 4 mil that would be a bargain haha.

by bbeeck on Jan 23, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

He said it in the post

Also, there are four free agent second basemen left and at most two openings, depending on how the Nationals go. Even if the Nationals sign Hudson, that would leave Lopez, Belliard, and Kennedy available with no other open roster spots. One of those guys will accept a minor league deal. All of them are better than Punto.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 23, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Belliard isn't

He can’t field worth a darn

by DJL44 on Jan 23, 2010 11:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree.

I’m not much of a fan of Belliard at all. I’d take Punto over him. Kennedy, Hudson or Lopez would all be upgrades. MLBTR is reporting that Orlando Hudson wants 9 million. The Twins won’t pay that. I could see maybe 6, but not 9. I’m assuming Lopez is probably asking for around 7 then?

by TheBlackFreighter on Jan 24, 2010 2:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow

How could Hudson ask for $9 mil.? He wasn’t even a starter by the end of the season. Not questioning the report, I just think its ridiculous that his agent thinks he can ask/get that amount for an older player who didn’t start in the playoffs. I wouldn’t pay more than $5-6 for him. I don’t think I would pay more than $5 for Lopez either.

by bbeeck on Jan 24, 2010 8:03 AM EST reply actions  

Aaron Gleeman

wants the Twins to sign Jim Thome and put Delmon on the bench, who then platoons at DH with Thome. This is the only scenario I would accept.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 25, 2010 5:16 PM EST reply actions  

really?

then who plays in LF everyday? Kubel’s knees?

by montanatwinsfan on Jan 25, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

The thing I don't like about that is that you lose Mauer at DH on his days off.

There is also the problem with who plays LF, like montana said. I would love if we could somehow steal DeJesus from the Royals, maybe trade them Delmon+ for him. Nobody would accept that, but maybe Dayton Moore would

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Jan 25, 2010 7:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Dayton Moore

a guy who would trade for Betancourt should trade for Delmon. We would not lose Mauer at DH on his days off. Thome would be on the bench and Mauer would slid in at DH. Kubel plays the field.

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett

by BCTwins on Jan 26, 2010 9:34 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

That’s what I expressed a couple of days ago. You don’t consume a bench spot for a left-handed pinch hitter, not with 12 pitchers. But if he’s in a DH platoon with Delmon, and Kubes is in left field, it makes some sense. Kubel isn’t great in left, but he’s better than Delmon. And I’m not worried about his knees, not with the natural grass in Target Field.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 25, 2010 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

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