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According to LEN III the Twins did actually make Washburn an offer about a week ago. Washburn's agent, Scott Boras, turned down the $5 million that was on the table, likely hoping to get his client a higher base salary. I have to say $5 million is already too high for Washburn, but then again I'm not running the front office.

Head over to the FanPosts where TonyO runs down the list of players the Twins have invited to spring training. Included: Ben Revere and...Mike Maroth?

about 2 years ago Twinkietown_tiny Jesse 37 comments 0 recs  | 

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Good move by Boras.

Take nothing less than $10 million, and keep him out of the Minnesota weather.

by benhertz on Jan 8, 2010 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

Kenny Rodgers was a Boras client

The Twins signed Rodgers in late February 2003 for $2 million after Boras had turned down $5 million offers in January. As anybody who follows the Twins knows, The starting rotation was pretty set prior to the signing: Brad Radke, Joe Mays, Eric Milton, Kyle Lohse, and Johan Santana. After the signing, Johan Santana was relegated to the bullpen while Kenny Rodgers and his 4.57 ERA pitched 198 innings. Santana eventually started in place of Mays, who blew out his elbow. But he only pitched 158 superb innings when he was perfectly capable of pitching 200 plus as the ace of the staff.

Now we have Washburn, who will likely be available for the same paltry sum as Rodgers was when we get closer to spring training. And we have Francisco Liriano, who is doing to the Dominicans what Santana did to the Venezuelans in the winter of 2003. Washburn’s demands are sure to get into the Twin’s price range as spring training approaches. The situation is eerily similar. The difference is Rodgers was a ground ball pitcher and Washburn is not. And the 2003 Twins were a very good defensive team, while the 2010 Twins…not so much. Also, unlike 2003, the Twins have two other lefthanders who have had major league success, should Liriano come to spring training like a prize bull—bent on throwing every pitch through the catcher—as he did in the spring of 2009.

Are the Twins destined to make the same mistake?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 8, 2010 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

Was it really a mistake?

Signing Rogers for $2M was a steal. Mays was terrible, the team saved money on Santana’s arbitration and they won the division. I’ll take a mistake like that (signing an above average starter for a 1 year $2M deal) every year.

by DJL44 on Jan 8, 2010 9:16 PM EST up reply actions  

I get your argument, but it bit us in the end

Santana didn’t show this side of himself very often, but lots of people have said that signing really pissed him off, as much because it saved the Twins a hefty arbitration price tag as because it cost him a shot at the Cy Young that year. As strange as that sounds, Santana was a supremely confident guy even then.

Anyway, that was straw #2 of his discontent with the Twins organization, which ultimately contributed to his untimely departure from the organization.

Straw #1? Getting sent down to learn the change up from Bobby Cuellar. The Twins did that to make him a better pitcher. In his mind, they did it to save a year of arbitration eligibility.

Straw #3? Trading Luis Castillo in the middle of a pennant chase.

Everything you do has consequences. Trying to save money on arbitration is penny wise and pound foolish because it can drive a wedge between the organization and the player. It also doesn’t pay because you lose more games without your best talent. Losing begets poor attendance. Poor attendance begets strapped budgets. So by the time the guy does make it to arbitration, you can’t afford him anyway.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jan 9, 2010 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Remember last year..

We did sign Joe Crede..who is a Boras client..to a $2.5 million incentive-laden contract after they were originally asking for I believe it was $5-$6 million a year…so this Washburn to Minnesota rumor is far from dead.

by TonyO on Jan 8, 2010 9:32 PM EST reply actions  

Exactly.

The Twins offered $2.5 much earlier according to reports, and Boras rejected it. Right before spring training, he realized it was the best offer, and Crede packed for Minnesota (Fort Myers). This situation seems eerily similar.

by Twins Territory on Jan 8, 2010 10:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Ah man, you two just brought me down ...

I jump on here all giddy that this whole Washburn thing didn’t go through, then I read something like this.

by sploorp on Jan 10, 2010 3:21 PM EST up reply actions  

How about we just say no to Washburn

I mean there’s a point where it becomes OK to sign him because he can be a trade chip midseason, or if he blows we can just cut him, but Id rather just stay away.

Beadlemaniacs - Award winning* college basketball blog

by fetch9 on Jan 8, 2010 9:43 PM EST reply actions  

The front office needs to stop obsessing over Washburn

Even 5M is better spent to upgrade another position, not for the chance that Washburn might be an upgrade.

"So [Kouzmanoff]’s going to make decent monkey, but he’d be affordable." - Jesse

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Jan 8, 2010 10:37 PM EST reply actions  

+1

http://www.realityfish.com

by Robin G on Jan 8, 2010 10:44 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Not only that ...

If they were willing to spend 5 million on Washburn, it means they still have 5 million left in the budget they are willing and/or can afford to spend. That 5 million would go a long way toward signing someone like Hudson.

by sploorp on Jan 10, 2010 3:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Why not take a chance?

It isn’t like he would cost a ton. Depth in your starting rotation is always a good thing—we were pretty thin last year with all the injuries. Who knows how Slowey is going to come back and whether or not we can depend on Liriano. I wouldn’t go over the $5MM though. Boras is just trying to get us to bid against ourselves.

Of course, I would have rather gone after Beltre, but he is off the market now. I think we could use another solid arm.

by rencito on Jan 9, 2010 1:38 AM EST reply actions  

Because we've got enough choices.

We have four sewn up slots, then Liriano, Perkins, Duensing, Manship, and whoever gets invited to spring training to fight it out for the fifth slot. Even if Slowey isn’t 100% (a legitimate concern), we’re really covered. I don’t want a) legit up-and-comers (read: Duensing) to be blocked, b) to burn $5 million that could be spent in a lot of other areas, or c) to make our traditional “Ramon Ortiz” mistake of the season by getting a veteran who hasn’t been taken by someone else for a very good reason. Washburn is not very good.

I will rethink my position is taking Washburn means we aggressively move Perkins and Liriano, getting back good pieces, preferably an infielder.

http://www.realityfish.com

by Robin G on Jan 9, 2010 8:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Too many questions

I agree that the money is better spent upgrading at other positions, but we do have a lot of questions in our rotation. Slowey, Perkins (not sure he is going to be effective anyways), Liriano are all big questions.

I’m really not sold on Duensing. I wouldn’t call him an up and comer. His numbers in AAA in 2008-09 are rather mediocre. I don’t think Manship is ready either.

I think Washburn is a solid choice. He has a career ERA of 4.10 and WHIP of 1.30. Last year, his overall numbers were better than that. Overall, he is a pretty average pitcher, but not a bad guy to have at the back end of the rotation. He is much lower risk than Ramon Ortiz was.

by rencito on Jan 9, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

net gain

Using CHONE projections Washburn adds 0.4 WAR over our current staff. We’d be better off using the $5M on Bedard (1.6 gain) or an infielder. Washburn isn’t a bad player, he has a 1.9 WAR projection. He is just too similar to the players we have to make a big difference.

by Jon Kammerer on Jan 9, 2010 8:41 AM EST reply actions  

I agree with this sentiment

$5M is just too much. If he’s desperate and willing to take $2M, that’s another decision for another day. The biggest reason why they shouldn’t jump in on Washburn is there are better players for bigger holes who might take that money (Hudson, Tejada, Lopez).

by DJL44 on Jan 9, 2010 9:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Not Tejada.

I’m also a long-time O’s fan (though we’re currently on a break). Not Tejada under any circumstances. He’s both a powerful clubhouse presence and very bipolar; this makes him extremely streaky, and when he’s down, he can really pull other people down with him. And he freeswings. It’d be a big mistake to have him near Span and Young.

http://www.realityfish.com

by Robin G on Jan 9, 2010 9:40 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I’m not worried about Span changing his approach

by ckb on Jan 10, 2010 2:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree on the +0.4

is not worth $5M. I also think one of the 5 if not 2 of the five pitchers will increse their WAR more then the 0.4 for Washburn. My guess Liriano and Perkins.

by b1 on Jan 9, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Truthfully...

…if the Twins were to get an Orlando Hudson or Felipe Lopez and then bring in Washburn, it wouldn’t bother me one bit. But if they’re going to use $5 million on him and then not upgrade at third or second, then there are some problems.

by Twins Territory on Jan 9, 2010 11:53 AM EST reply actions  

+5000000

exactly.. We need a 2nd and 3rd basemen far more than we do a 5th starter, especially when that 5th starter might actually be worse than what we presently have.

by diehardtwinsfan on Jan 9, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Also, it sounds as if the Twins would push harder to move Perkins if they add another veteran. I don’t see why having Duensing and Liriano isn’t enough incentive to move him.

by Twins Territory on Jan 9, 2010 11:53 AM EST reply actions  

Suddenly I'm a much bigger Scott Boras fan...

"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane

by AdamOnFirst on Jan 9, 2010 1:53 PM EST reply actions  

+1

Beadlemaniacs - Award winning* college basketball blog

by fetch9 on Jan 9, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Boras is a Ass

The Twins played out his bluff last year with Crede and got a smaller contract and it looks like he just did the same for Washburn. If we offer again it should be $2.5M. Same goes with Crede. Most of these guys should jump at an offer, it could be their last.

by b1 on Jan 9, 2010 3:36 PM EST reply actions  

+1

I’m also a bit miffed at St. Louis. Who were they bidding against for Matt Holliday? All the big money teams were out of it and the market is down with more teams looking to shed payroll rather than add it. Boras had zero leverage in this deal and I was hoping St. Louis would have been smart enough to see that. I guess not.

by sploorp on Jan 10, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Boras is good...

…at getting teams to bid against themselves. You are absolutely right that there was no one else bidding for him. That contract was a head scratcher.

by rencito on Jan 10, 2010 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Washburn

seems like he pitches well early in the season. Anyone confirm that?

Also, what happens now can always be undone during the season in a trade. He’s a chip. NY or Boston needs an arm, guess what? We got a veteran, and it just so happens that our younger, cheaper replacement is better, so we save Arb time, spending it on Washburn, while gaining a PTBNL.

Plus, with some young lefties and young pitchers, Twins really look to mentor with a veteran pitcher. 5 plums seems too high at first blush, but it’s hard to really know what the Twins are planning or could use him for during the long season.

by Old Twins Cap on Jan 9, 2010 4:34 PM EST reply actions  

Washburn Splits

He is at his worse in March/April and June. May and July are his best months and he is pretty average in August/September even with last year’s woeful end. He is pretty close to even between 1st and 2nd half.

Splits here.

by rencito on Jan 9, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

It’d seem right that the Twins would sign a veteran that does well early. Ramon Ortiz and Livan Hernandez seemed to do great through the first month or two.

by Twins Territory on Jan 9, 2010 11:03 PM EST up reply actions  

So wait...

…5 million gets you Vlad Guerrero, but NOT Jarrod Washburn?? JARROD WASHBURN?? Wow….

by Boss10 on Jan 10, 2010 10:52 PM EST reply actions  

Oh...

…and as for Mike Maroth, if you can’t find a 20-game WINNER…. :)

by Boss10 on Jan 10, 2010 10:54 PM EST reply actions  

Nicely done

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jan 11, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions  

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