Jesse's Armchair GM a la Twins Thursday, Part 2
This morning I outlined my goals for the kind of players I'd be looking for this winter, if I were the Twins GM. Some of you agreed, some didn't, and that's perfect. Here's where I get into specifics.
Impending Free Agents
Carl Pavano: As a Type-A free agent, Pavano would net the Twins a first round draft pick if they offered him arbitration and he declined. The downside is that if they offer him arbitration and he accepts, they'll have to pay him something in the range of $10 million for the year. I'm playing a big risk here, because his acceptance of arbitration screws up most of how I plan to use the money I have this winter, but as one of the best two or three starters on the free agent market he should have multiple teams interested in offering him a multi-year contract. I'm offering him arbitration, because I'm confident he'll decline it and not have a problem signing elsewhere.
Orlando Hudson: I'd offer him arbitration. He's a Type-B free agent, which means that there won't be the stigma that comes against signing Type-A's due to the signing team losing a draft pick. More than likely he'll decline, as the middle infield free agent market isn't exactly flush with options and he'd be one of the most desireable options. Instead, if the unexpected happens and, like Pavano, he is unexpectedly unable to find a long-term contract, absorbing him for one more season at $6 million isn't the end of the world. Especially for a number two hitter with good defense.
Jim Thome: He's a sentimental choice to bring back, but I'm giving him a pass. First, Thome will be another year older, and Beau has outlined more than once how amazing his year has been historically and also how players tend to do at this point in their careers. Add to that his ongoing back issues and his inability to play a position, and I would prefer to spend money on players who can be productive at the plate while also playing defense and not having those red flags for injury.
Randy Flores, Ron Mahay, Brian Fuentes, Jon Rauch: Fuentes (who didn't finish enough games for his option to kick in) and Rauch are each Type-B free agents, but these four are all being allowed to walk. See ya.
Matt Guerrier: Another Type-A free agent, if he's offered and he accepts, he's likely to make $2.5-$3 million. In a market flush with bullpen options, will another team pony up the cash and draft pick in order to sign him to a multi-year contract? I'm not so sure. Sorry Matty, no arbitration offer for you.
Jesse Crain: As our best reliever in 2010 (once he started using his slider more often), I'm re-signing Crain for two years, $6 million.
Player Options
Jason Kubel: There's a $5.25 million club option, or a $350,000 buyout. Even after his disappointing season and terrible October, I'm picking up this option without hesitation. I'm picking it up with the intention of trading him, but I'll get to that later.
Nick Punto: Punto has a $5 million club option with a $500,000 buyout. I'm buying him out.
Arbitration decisions and roster reconstruction after the jump!
The Twins have a lot of arbitration-eligible players this year. I'm tendering offers to J.J. Hardy, Delmon Young, Pat Neshek, Kevin Slowey, Alexi Casilla and Glen Perkins. As for the rest...
Francisco Liriano: He's likely to garner $4 - $5 million in his first year of arbitration. Instead, I'm signing him to a four-year, $32 million dollar contract (2011: $4 MM; 2012: $8 million; 2013: $10 million; 2014: $10 million).
Matt Capps: I'm non-tendering Capps. I know, I know, he's supposed to be Joe Nathan's insurance policy and we traded Wilson Ramos for him, but A) we can do better with the $7 million he'd be likely to earn through arbitration and B) we shouldn't stick with him just because we traded too much for him. If we can do better with the money that would be allocated for him, then we should cut bait. I want my team to be as good as it can be, and I'm not concerned with making it appear slightly more palatable that we traded one of our biggest chips. We know that saves are over-rated, both in terms of the dollars awarded closers and in terms of the closer position, and for my money I can buy a better pitcher.
Clay Condrey: This is a no-brainer. He didn't pitch.
Jason Repko: We have good defensive outfielders coming through the minor leagues who can provide the kind of offense Repko provided.
All this leaves us with a skeleton roster of...
| Pos | Player | 2011 Salary |
| C | Joe Mauer | 23.0 |
| 1B | Justin Morneau | 14.0 |
| 2B | Alexi Casilla | 0.8 |
| 3B | Danny Valencia | 0.5 |
| SS | J.J. Hardy | 6.5 |
| LF | Delmon Young | 5.0 |
| CF | Denard Span | 1.0 |
| RF | Michael Cuddyer | 10.5 |
| DH | 0.5 | |
| Bench C | Jose Morales/Drew Butera | 0.5 |
| Bench IF | 0.5 | |
| Bench IF | 0.5 | |
| Bench OF | 0.5 | |
| IF | Brendan Harris | 1.75 |
| SP | Francisco Liriano | 4.0 |
| SP | Scott Baker | 5.0 |
| SP | Nick Blackburn | 3.0 |
| SP | Kevin Slowey | 2.5 |
| SP | Brian Duensing | 0.5 |
| SP | Glen Perkins | 0.8 |
| CL | Joe Nathan | 11.25 |
| MR | Jesse Crain | 3.0 |
| MR | Jose Mijares | 0.5 |
| MR | Pat Neshek | 0.8 |
| MR | 0.5 | |
| MR | 0.5 | |
| MR | 0.5 | |
| Buyout | Nick Punto | 0.5 |
| Total | 2011 Payroll | 98.9 |
That's, actually, not so bad. Perkins may or may not be on the Major League roster, Punto's buyout is included, as is the second year of Harris' deal. You'll notice there's no Kubel since, as I mentioned above, I'm trading him. For a semi-decent prospect. This leaves us about $15 million to spend in filling the remaining holes that we don't want filled by in-house, minor league options.
Free Agent Signings
Sign Derek Lee (2 years, $14 million): This is the big splash, and it does three things. It provides the Twins another big right-handed stick, it fills the designated hitter position, and it provides a backup plan in case Morneau isn't ready to go for whatever reason. There's obviously some risk involved here--the dollars, Lee's age and his performance in 2010 mean this isn't a match made in heaven. But it's a good match, and it's a calculated risk.
Sign Joaquin Benoit (2 years, $8 million): Benoit was a strikeout machine on a minor league deal for the Rays this season, and he'll be one of many good relievers on the market. I'm adding to that by letting Fuentes, Guerrier and Rauch all walk. In the event Benoit gets snapped up for closer's cash there are other options there, but he's my top target.
Sign Jorge Cantu (1 year, $3 million): Cantu has had an up and down career, and is coming off another down year. He'll be 29 in 2011 and isn't much of an on-base man, but he can play first, second and third, and he can hit for power. He hit 40 or more doubles in '05, '08 and '09, and hit nearly 30 homers in '05 and '08.
Sign Felipe Lopez (1 year, $1.5 million): After hitting .298/.366/.407 between '08 and '09, Lopez fell of a cliff this season. But he'll be just 31 in 2011, can play second, third and short, and at this price isn't a bad backup option.
Sign Kiko Calero (1 year, minor league contract): Calero is another strikeout machine, but control issues have kept him from having a bigger career. He spent all of 2010 in AAA between the Dodgers and Mets, and he'll be 36 next season, but he retired 69 men on strikes in 60 innings in '09. He's a low-risk, high-reward kind of player, and if anyone can iron out a few control issues it's Rick Anderson.
Where does this leave us?
| Pos | Player | 2011 Salary |
| C | Joe Mauer | 23.0 |
| 1B | Justin Morneau | 14.0 |
| 2B | Alexi Casilla | 0.8 |
| 3B | Danny Valencia | 0.5 |
| SS | J.J. Hardy | 6.5 |
| LF | Delmon Young | 5.0 |
| CF | Denard Span | 1.0 |
| RF | Michael Cuddyer | 10.5 |
| DH | Derek Lee | 7.0 |
| Bench C | Jose Morales/Drew Butera | 0.5 |
| Bench IF | Jorge Cantu | 3.0 |
| Bench IF | Felipe Lopez | 1.5 |
| Bench OF | Ben Revere | 0.5 |
| IF | Brendan Harris | 1.75 |
| SP | Francisco Liriano | 4.0 |
| SP | Scott Baker | 5.0 |
| SP | Nick Blackburn | 3.0 |
| SP | Kevin Slowey | 2.5 |
| SP | Brian Duensing | 0.5 |
| LR | Glen Perkins | 0.8 |
| CL | Joe Nathan | 11.25 |
| MR | Jesse Crain | 3.0 |
| MR | Joaquin Benoit | 4.0 |
| MR | Jose Mijares | 0.5 |
| MR | Kiko Calero | 0.5 |
| MR | Pat Neshek | 0.8 |
| Buyout | Nick Punto | 0.5 |
| Total | 2011 Payroll | 112.4 |
That's $74.3 million on position players ($76.55 million including Harris and Punto), and $38.85 million on the pitching staff, for a total payroll of $112.4 million. Hell, if Hudson accepts arbitration then forget about Lopez, slide Casilla to the bench and make the overall payroll around $116.9 million. Personally I think the payroll will be closer to $112 than $116, but by that point we're just splitting hairs.
Conclusion
I'm putting a lot of faith in the starting rotation. If he's healthy, I believe Liriano is a legitimate staff ace. Behind him, both Baker and Slowey are capable of putting together seasons that look a lot better than the seasons they gave us in 2010. Should anyone stumble, I have faith that someone like David Bromberg, Kyle GIbson or Alex Wimmers would be able to step in, in addition to familiar names like Perkins, Anthony Swarzak and Jeff Manship.
The bench is versatile but has potential to hit, and this lineup...
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Lee
Morneau
Young
Cuddyer
Valencia
Hardy
...isn't too bad.
The bullpen has question marks still, from Nathan to Neshek to Calero, but with names like Billy Bullock, Anthony Slama, Kyle Waldrop and Rob Delaney waiting around, it's still a pretty deep talent pool.
How does that team look to you? Would players like Jorge and Lopez, who have had opportunities to play quite a bit in their careers, accept backup roles (even though, no doubt, Gardy would find them at-bats)? Is the lineup good enough, in spite of being right-heavy in the bottom half? Is the rotation good enough to compete?
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Comments
Jim Thome
Add to that his ongoing back issues and his inability to play a position, and I would prefer to spend money on players who can be productive at the plate while also playing defense and not having those red flags for injury.
Is that an Ozzie Guillen quote?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes!" -Bill James
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Oct 28, 2010 10:11 PM EDT reply actions
I considered a scenrio where the Twins traded for Greinke, but trades are messy so I stayed away.
I had Troy Glaus ($2.5 million) at DH, Tolbert as one infield bench option and Russell Branyan ($2 million) as the other. I then had Kubel, Baker and Aaron Hicks headed to KC for Greinke.
That should have us pretty near the $112/$115 mark.
Span
Casilla
Mauer
Morneau
Young
Glaus
Cuddyer
Valencia
Hardy
Morales, Tolbert, Branyan, Revere on the bench
Liriano, Greinke, Slowey, Blackburn, Duensing in the rotation and
Nathan, Crain, Mijares, Neshek, Calero, Perkins and Slama/Waldrop/Burnett in the ’pen.
i considered two scenerios in which the Twins traded with the Marlins
1. Josh Johnson to Twins for :
Kevin Slowey, Carlos Gutierrez, Angel Morales, Glen Perkins/ Jose Morales
2. Josh Johnson, Mike Stanton, and Chris Coghlan to Twins for:
Delmon Young, Kevin Slowey(or Blackburn) , Carlos Gutierrez, Angel Morales, Trevor Plouffe, Alex Burnett, Jose Morales
Josh Johnson the home town kid becomes our Staff Ace and we’d have him for 2011 and 2012 for pretty cheap money
Considering how dominant he is. I like Michael Stanton more than our own Delmon Young (despite Young’s big breakout in ‘10) Stanton provides more consistant bettter All-Around defense with even slighly more power and speed. (IMO)
Coghlan is super versatile 2B/ corner OFs/3B and maybe even 1B or CF…..(I’d start him at 2B)
The Marlins are always in re-build mode and i could honestly see this working if they Arn’t already too in love with Stanton that is.
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:02 AM EDT up reply actions
I should Add Delmon Young hits for a higher average and actually strikes out less
and probably walk about evenly… (so OB% actually favors Young)
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not a matter of being in love with Stanton.
You just have him waaaaaay undervalued in that trade. Six years of cheap team control of a likely star is the most valuable commodity in baseball.
I'd nontender Neshek
Otherwise, this looks pretty good.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
same here
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I like it, but ...
as I look at it, I have this unnatural compulsion to trade Hardy to the A’s for Pennington and one of their pitchers. Anderson or Cahill would be terrific (and unlikely), but Weurtz or Breslow wouldn’t be awful. The thing is … I really miss stolen bases.
Yeah, wouldn't be many of those.
I didn’t solve that problem, or the starting OF defense issue. Span, Casilla and Revere can all run, but Lopez hasn’t been a speed guy since ‘07 (he stole 83 from ’05 – ’07, including 44 in ’06 which seems insane now) and Cantu doesn’t run.
I keep forgetting about Span's speed on the basepaths
after this season. Maybe an economical way to improve the running game is to bring in some new 1B, 3B coaches … no?
Overall I like it...
I’d prefer a Greinke trade, sure, but short of that, this is pretty well thought out and good.
OF defense would be the main concern still, but that’s going to be tough to solve no matter what IMO. There’s no way we’re trading both Kubel and Cuddyer, and Gardy’s going to run one of those 2 out there.
And even though it’s probably an unpopular choice among many fans, I’m totally with you on Capps. That $6-7M could go a long way.
3 nitpicks: 1) I think Guerrier’s going to cost more than you think. But yes, I’d let him go.
2) I think a Liriano extension will take more than you think. 3) I think a Crain extension will take more than you think.
Capps made $3.5 million this year
Would he really double that in arb? I think he and Guerrier will be closer together than Jesse has them. I think Jesse’s right that Capps is a clear “no” at 6 or 7, but not so sure at 5 or so.
I actually think the extensions sound pretty reasonable. From a player’s perspective, the thing about guaranteed money is that (1) it’s guaranteed and (2) it’s money.
You had better get strikeout pitchers
Because your defense didn’t get better at all, the bench defense (Morales, Lopez and Cantu) is putrid. Offense isn’t really any better either. You spent too much on relief pitchers. I’d take a full year of Orlando Hudson over a bench of Cantu and Lopez, they’re the same price.
Derrek Lee still has a good glove, he’ll want to be an everyday infielder.
For the record
I’d offer arb to all the relievers and keep or trade the ones who accept. Capps is still tradeable at $6M.
I’d trade Kubel and spare prospects for DeJesus and Kendall – vets who can play defense and hit RHP better than what we have. I’d move Delmon to RF and make Cuddyer float positions. I’d re-sign Thome for $2M. I’d re-sign Hudson for 1 year.
I’d probably pass on trading for Greinke unless I could swindle the Royals with Blackburn, Slama and Revere.
any chance of putting an arbitration offer betting pool?
i’m sure adam petersen is already working on one
Roster/lineups
Pos Player 2011 Salary
C Joe Mauer 23.0
1B Justin Morneau 14.0
2B Orlando Hudson 5.0
3B Danny Valencia 0.5
SS J.J. Hardy 6.5
LF David DeJesus 6.0
CF Denard Span 1.0
RF Delmon Young 5.0
OF/1B Michael Cuddyer 10.5
DH Jim Thome 2.0
Bench C Jason Kendall 3.0
Bench IF Alexi Casilla 0.8
Bench IF Matt Tolbert 0.5
Bench OF Jason Repko 0.8
IF Brendan Harris 1.75 – dumped in the DeJesus trade
SP Francisco Liriano 4.0
SP Scott Baker 5.0
SP Nick Blackburn 3.0
SP Kevin Slowey 2.5
SP Brian Duensing 0.5
LR TBD – 0.5
CL Joe Nathan 11.25
MR Jesse Crain 3.0
MR Matt Guerrier 3.0
MR Jose Mijares 0.5
MR Matt Capps 6.0
MR Pat Neshek 0.8
Buyout Nick Punto 0.5
Total 2011 Payroll 119M
That’s probably too steep so I’d deal Matt Capps and promote Gutierrez.
Clarification – I wouldn’t offer arb to Fuentes.
I like the Cuddyer-as-uber-utility idea.
I floated that around in my head for a bit.
A couple points - Hudson is going to get a raise, even if it’s just to $6 million through arbitration. If it’s only $5 million it’s as part of a multi-year deal. Also, Thome is probably going to get $4$5 million, unless he decides to give the Twins a big discount because he really wants to stay here.
I like DeJesus in left, and if we take him over Hudson in your scenario we get a little more payroll balance. Non-tendering Capps and signing Benoit is a better option in the bullpen (you spent more of relievers than I did). You’re right about my bench defense, so in addition to Cuddyer instead of Cantu we can say Tolbert over Lopez.
I’m also not buying on Kendall. He hasn’t hit RHP since 2004, and hasn’t really hit in general since 2006. Additionally, while he led the AL with 41 caught steals…he did so because teams ran on him more than any other catcher in baseball. I’ll take Morales or Butera at a minimum, because Kendall gives us nothing.
Span (1.0), DeJesus (6.0), Mauer (23.0), Morneau (14.0), Young (5.0), Thome (4.0), Valencia (0.5), Hardy (6.5), Casilla (0.8): $60.8
Morales (0.5), Cuddyer (10.5), Tolbert (0.5), Revere (0.5): $12.0
Liriano (4.0), Baker (5.0), Slowey (2.5), Blackburn (3.0), Duensing (0.5): $15.0
Nathan (11.25), Crain (3.0), Benoit (4.0), Mijares (0.5), Neshek (0.8), Perkins (0.8), Slama/Burnett/Waldrop (0.5): $20.85
Total: $108.65 million
That’s a good offense, a good bat off the bench while keeping the defense-first Tolbert around, not to mention better teams speed: Span, DeJesus, Casilla, Revere and Tolbert can all motor. The rotation stays the same, and the bullpen still has some holes which could probably be spent by going after a couple of specialists on low-dollar deals.
Kendall still hits LHP
He doesn’t need to hit RHP. We have a guy named Joe Mauer for that. He’s still pretty good behind the dish too. He isn’t anything special at his age but he has 100 points of OBP on Drew Butera. If Kendall gives you nothing, Butera gives you less than nothing. Plus, the Royals need to take back Brendan Harris in the trade to cancel out some of Kendall’s salary. A team starting Chris Getz might actually get some use out of Harris.
I’m also not sure why Hudson would get a raise. He didn’t overperform his previous year.
I like the idea of spending even less on the bullpen and auditioning the minor league arms. At least one will stick and they can fill in at the trade deadline again if necessary.
It thinks hyphen-words-hyphen is a strikeout.
Stay away from Kendall - torn rotator cuff
He needs major shoulder surgery and could be out until anywhere from April to June because of it.
And he knew about the injury since July, but tried to play through it. You don’t want a guy that won’t come forward when he’s been in serious pain for months (and his injury showed in his play – .528 OPS after the All-Star break).
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 29, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Good to know
I still want a real backup catcher. One who can hit his weight.
agreed
I’m not asking for .300 or anything. But someone who doesn’t treat the Mendoza line as a career achievement award would be nice.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 30, 2010 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions
There's always Jose Morales
Might not be the best defensive catcher, but I’ll take him over Butera any time.
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 30, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
the moment i read derek lee my head exploded
Bold moves. On the whole I’m buying
I can’t see the FO displaying the cajones to let go of that many familiar names and I as the atypical timid Minnesotan, have an aversion to dramatic changes.
Not me, I wouldn't mind Cantu if we could get him for = or <3 M
But Derek Lee is a NO
and same with Felipe Lopez, I’d rather have Mark Ellis or about 2 other guys….
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Capps is coming back
Thinking he won’t is just daydreaming. And I’m not sure Kubel has much trade value unless you just want to give him away, which might not be a good idea.
Lee is an interesting idea, I think someone else suggested Konerko, but either way, White Sox fans would be irate so that’s good.
I think so too
Ramos was slightly too much to give up for 2-3 Months of a league average Closer…
Plus Capps provides insurance for Nathan if Nathan isn’t himself which I kinda actually expect sad to say
(loook at Neshek and Mijares and so many of our other guys)
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd rather see Benoit instead of Capps.
Like I said, don’t hang with an overpaid bullpen arm just because we traded too much for him. We can do better for closer insurance than him.
Maybe
But it’s just not realistic to make payroll projections without including him.
Why don't we just match whatever the Yankee's payroll spends
What would our roster look like then?
MPR, Lefsa, Grumpier Old Men and Joe Mauer! Top that.
by By Allen's Mullet on Oct 29, 2010 1:04 AM EDT reply actions
C Mauer
1B Morneau
2B Hudson
SS Hardy
3B Valencia
LF Span
CF Crawford
RF Cuddyer
DH Dunn
C V. Martinez (and 1B insurance)
INF Uribe
INF Punto
OF Revere
PH Thome
SP Lee
SP Liriano
SP Greinke (plenty surplus to trade – Kubel, Young, pitchers, prospects)
SP Pavano
SP Baker
LHR Fuentes
LHR Mijares
RHR Putz
RHR Soriano
RHR Benoit
CL Nathan
Should probably pick up an extra reliever in case Nathan can’t pitch, I’ll grab Grant Balfour out of nostalgia.
Maaaaaybe before that Mauer deal
After that STUPID contract we couldn’t do almost half of those moves even with Yankee money, silly
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
still i LOL'd
I called it - Joe Mauer's first career Home-Run at Target Field !!!
Why Oh Why did the D'Backs select A.J. Pollock over Mike Trout?
I hate Hunter Wendelstedt, you hate Hunter Wendelstedt we all hate hunter w
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Oct 29, 2010 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
The Mauer deal wasn't stupid
It was completely necessary. Pay the hometown hero, future Hall of Famer, best catcher in baseball, perennial team MVP what he’s worth. You could make all sorts of tertiary moves but you would be playing Drew Butera every day.
How many catchers
are 5 wins about replacement for their position?
How many seats do you think Mauer fills?
I’ll say it again, Mauer pays for himself, on and off the field. We wouldn’t be TALKING about having a 110millionish payroll w/o Mauer in the lineup. We’d probably be looking at a 90million max and be paring off other regulars while we get ready for a non-competitive season.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I love that
Punto somehow is on this team
by clutterheart on Oct 29, 2010 7:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Interesting Take
I hated that part!
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Oct 29, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Y'know
It would just be hilarious if in some bizarro world the Pohlads just decided “screw it” we’re gonna win a world series again and just plan to lose money this year. Even if the Twins just swept up and picked off one of those big free agents it would be great to hear the east coast teams crying that they couldn’t buy a championship.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
people ping on Carl Pohlad for being cheap
but he was willing to take payroll chances when the Twins had a shot to win in 87 and 91-92. I don’t know how serious he was about entertaining contraction in the dark days though, so I won’t defend him altogether.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
yah I wasn't trying to call him cheap
He runs the team like a business and that’s fine by me. It would just be fun if he decided ahh screw it let’s splurge a little or a lot for a few years and see what happens.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Just to clarify.
“He” would have to be Jim Pohlad, Carl’s son. Carl died in January 2009.
Ownership showed a willingness to spend last off-season and this year, the first in Target Field, as was reasonable to expect.
I don’t anticipate too much further increase over what’s needed to cover contractual obligations, but I’d sure like to be pleasantly surprised.
At some point during Mauer’s tenure, with the right pieces coming together, I think it could make sense for them to “eat” into their revenue further and up the payroll in a bid for another World Series.
Always interesting, this game.
by twinpirate326 on Oct 30, 2010 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn't work well enough
Even the Yankees can’t buy a championship every year. If you put all your eggs in that basket you might end up with nothing.
1) I don't think either of us said "every year"
2) I didn’t say “this year” was the year.
I ‘did’ say however, that Carl was not adverse to doing this when he was owner and he saw a chance to win big. So I don’t think we can count this out completely.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
The ratio of Pohlad money to MLB payolls has been dropping steadily in the last 20 years.
It’s a lot easier to extend your payroll $5m than $50m. The entire 91 payroll was less than Mauer will make next year.
not arguing that
But I am saying that Carl Pohlad wasn’t near as ‘skin-flint’ as many made him out to be. At least not in the days the Twins were competitive. Like I said, I’m not defending the contraction-era stuff, because I don’t think we’ll ever know how much of it was posturing by MLB and how much was him legitimately being sick of playing in the Dome and watching revenue dry up.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 30, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Looks good to me for the most part
I especially like the Liriano extension and nontendering Capps. It would be awesome if we could pull off that kind of contract with Liriano. And I really doubt we actually will nontender Capps, but I absolutely agree with you that it’s the right move.
One thing I’m curious about – does Nathan start the season as closer for you? Who fills in if he isn’t up to it at the start of the season?
Another problem – both Crane and Benoit might seek out closer roles with other teams instead of signing here. I’m sure the Rays will go after Benoit hard, because they can’t afford to bring back Soriano. And we’ve already heard the rumors that Crain wants to close. We might be able to pull one of them in with a promise to close until Nathan’s ready, but I’m not sure how likely that is to succeed. I might offer Rauch arb as a backup plan, because I doubt we get both Soriano and Crain. Rauch shouldn’t be too expensive if he does accept, and if he doesn’t, we get a supplemental draft pick. It’s more risky to offer MattyG arb because as a Type A reliever, I think he’d almost certainly accept, but that’s another option. I’m not familiar enough with the free agent RP market to take any guesses at other backup plans if we can’t get hold of both Benoit and Crain under your plan.
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Oct 29, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions
Free agent listing
Right here, and there are a LOT of good bullpen options this year…so even if we can’t have Benoit and Crain, there are options available:
Closers
Octavio Dotel (37) – $4.5MM mutual option with a $500K buyout – Type B
Frank Francisco (31) Type A’12 – Type B
Brian Fuentes (35) – Type B
Kevin Gregg (33) – $4.5MM club option for ’11, $8.75MM for ’11
Trevor Hoffman (43) – mutual option worth $7-8.5MM; buyout at $500K-1MM – Type B
Chad Qualls (32) – Type B
Jon Rauch (32)
Mariano Rivera (41) – Type A
Rafael Soriano (31) – Type A
Kerry Wood (34) – $11MM club option – Type B
Right-handed relievers
Grant Balfour (33) – Type A
Miguel Batista (40)
Denny Bautista (28)
Joaquin Benoit (33) – Type B
Jose Contreras (39)
Jesse Crain (29) – Type B
Juan Cruz (30) – $4MM club option with a $500K buyout
Elmer Dessens (40)
Brendan Donnelly (39)
Chad Durbin (33) – Type B
Kelvim Escobar (34)
Kyle Farnsworth (35) – $5.25MM club option with a $500K buyout
Jason Frasor (33) – Type A
Chad Gaudin (28)
Enrique Gonzalez (28)
Matt Guerrier (32) – Type A
Aaron Heilman (32) – Type B
Bob Howry (37) – $3MM club option with a $250K buyout
Mike Lincoln (36)
Mike MacDougal (34)
Justin Miller (33)
Guillermo Mota (37)
Fernando Nieve (28)
Micah Owings (28)
Chan Ho Park (38)
J.J. Putz (34) – Type B
Jon Rauch (32) – Type B
David Riske (34)
Takashi Saito (41) – Type A
Chris Sampson (33)
Scot Shields (35)
Jeff Suppan (36)
Koji Uehara (36) – Type B
Tyler Walker (35)
Jeff Weaver (34)
Dan Wheeler (33) – $4MM club option with a $1MM buyout – Type A
Jamey Wright (36)
Left-handed relievers
Joe Beimel (34)
Bruce Chen (34)
Randy Choate (35) – Type B
Scott Downs (35) – Type A
Pedro Feliciano (34) – Type B
Mark Hendrickson (37) – $1.2MM club option with a $200K buyout
Ron Mahay (40)
Will Ohman (32)
Dennys Reyes (34)
Arthur Rhodes (41) – Type A
J.C. Romero (35)
Bobby Seay (33)
Scott Schoeneweis (37)
Hisanori Takahashi (36)
Taylor Tankersley (28)
Missing one very good reliever prospect at the end...
…Alex Burnett. I suspect Slama, Delaney, Waldrop and Burnett will all begin their season in Rochester with the chance that one will be with the Twins depending on other moves or injuries. Of that group, Burnett may again be their first choice as I suspect he will come back from the offseason as a better pitcher than he was in the first half last year…when he was very good!
The most important thing
about this excercise in futility (because Billy’s goinna do what he’s gotta do without EVEN ONCE considering this thoughtful team structuring) is that it get our minds off the fact that our Twins should be in the World Series right now and onto next season. Viva next season!
If Bill Smith isn't reading TwinkieTown, he should be fired.
We basically do his job for him, only better, and for free.
Not to mention less inside knowledge
Some of our stuff looks great on paper, but still… there is more to it
by twinscrazy_german on Oct 29, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
No, not really
Let’s see…
Fire Gary
Trade Maurer, Morneau, and everyone else
Goodbye to Punto, Thome, Fuentes, and all other free agents
Sign as many free agents as we need/want
Bring up everyone from Rochester to fill the gaps
All Bill Smith has to do is sit back in his leather executive chair, smoke a cigar and watch all the WS pennants roll in!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"I've made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes!" -Bill James
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Oct 29, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Overall I like it, but Derrek Lee's not who I'd spend 7 million on this year and next.
Really, isn’t Kubel or Thome and a $2 million platoon mate better than having Lee? You can still sub in Cuddyer at 1st for Morneau, which maybe isn’t ideal, but whatever, it’s your backup plan. If we’re in a situation where it’s looking likely that Morneau isn’t a regular next year, then maybe I’m with you. But Lee was underwhelming at best last year and switching to the harder league and becoming a permanent DH at age 35? That sounds like a bigger risk than we took with Thome and Thome cost $12.5 million less. I could easily see us getting absolutely nothing for that $14 million.
Also, CASILLA BATTING SECOND …oh, sorry, I guess I’ll have 162 game threads next year to complain about that one.
Formatting quibble
Derrek Lee’s name has two "r"s in it – the linked “Derek Lee” in the original article goes to some guy I’ve never heard of who pitched briefly for the Twins in 1993.
I’m not positive I’m on board with the Derrek Lee signing, but it certainly would make a splash.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Whoot!
Sanity in the GM’s chair.
Gardy’s crying in his own grit.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I hate the rotation
Just hate it
The beard abides.
by Jason Kubel's Beard on Oct 29, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions
I agree
I don’t see the starting rotation holding up any better next year against elite hitting than they did this year.
It’s a recipe for another short-series sweep. I’m not on the ‘power arm’ bandwagon. But we do need someone else who can get a K when he needs one.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If that's the rotation....
….we’ll see Gibson and/or Wimmers at some point. I actually prefer both of those guys to Slowey right now. I have to believe that Baker and Blackburn were limited by injury for most of 2010. I’d be happy with their 2009 performance in 2011.
That said, I expect the Twins to make a serious run at Greinke.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Greinke in the rotation
Means Ben Revere in the OF. I don’t see how to balance the payroll otherwise.
Kubel, Revere and Slowey for Greinke
They’l have to cut costs in the bullpen.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yep - we need someone Greinkesque for sure
Greinke
Liriano
Pavano
Baker
Duensing
is ideal, though costly…
The beard abides.
by Jason Kubel's Beard on Oct 29, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll pur Blackie
in Pavano’s spot and move Baker and Duensing up even. Not nearly as costly, still about as effective. We could save money on the pen with that rotation, because they wouldn’t be called on for nearly as many innings as they are now.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
If the Twins go get a starter Pavano's gone
As good as he was this year I say take our draft picks and let him walk.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
What makes you think the Royals will do this?
They aren’t going to take major leaguers for Greinke… they may take 1 pitcher like Slowey, but it will be for minor leaguers… start thinking Slowey, Hicks, Revere, adn possibly one more.
by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 29, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they'll do it because it fits so nicely with what the Twins need to do
Ergo, it’s what the Royals want to do. :-)
Really, trade speculation is fun. But it always runs afoul of reality. For every speculation, there’s an equal and opposite counter proposal. The truth is, we really have no clue what the Royals will demand for Greinke. But I would say the package I propose is pretty fair.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
They'd take 1 starter
as a replacement. And then probably 2 prospects. They wouldn’t take Kubel, because he doesn’t represent value to them, and he doesn’t get them younger.
The deal the KC types have suggested is 2 top-tier prospects, probably we could swing that to a replacement starter 1 top1 second tier. That’s as far as they’d go. They don’t NEED to move Zac this offseason. It’s just better for them if they do.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd do that
Wimmers give you an opportunity to trade Gibson.
But I’d rather do Bromberg, Revere, Parmelee, Stuifbergen
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I'd really like to keep Gibson
I just think his potential is higher than most. I’d rather give a better OF prospect like Hicks, keep Revere and give them a lesser pitching prospect than Gibson like Bromberg.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
What were you thinking with trading Kubel?
I just didn’t see any details? Were you thinking he’d just be sent for prospects in a bit of a salary dump?
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Midlevel prospect I believe he said
Didn’t go into details afaik
by twinscrazy_german on Oct 29, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
ok I must have missed it
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Midlevel prospect is not enough
Kubel is a very good, relatively young hitter. And he’s not very expensive yet. Most teams can handle his contract anyway. He’s worth at least someone’s top 5 prospect—I’d say at least a B prospect on Sickel’s scale.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Am i missiing something here?
Did we not just win 94 games? Even more impressive exactly 3 hitters (Valencia, Young, and Thome), and maybe 3 pitchers (Liriano, Crain and Duensing) had better than average years. Span, Mauer, Morneau, Cuddy, Kubel, Hudson, Baker, Blackie, Slowey, all regular players, all who had worse years than they had the previous year.
Should we expect Young and Valencia to have as good of year next year as they did this year? Probably not, but it might be more relevant to think about whether or not we expect Span, Cuddy, Kubes, baker, Slowey, Morneau, Blackie, even Mauer to bounce back and have better years next year? All have a track record that shows that improvement should be expected.
Most of this team will likely improve
I could Thome regressing, though I disagree with not keeping him. If he can be had for a similar role, you do it… period.
Span, Hardy, Morneau (by playing all season), Mauer, Kubel, Baker, Slowey, and Blackburn all stand to probably improve a bit. I even think that Young will likely take another step forward, though it may not be quite as big. I do think another power arm in the pen would be nice, and if Pavano goes, I wouldn’t mind having another decent starter, but there’s a pretty decent core here… you don’t break it up.
by diehardtwinsfan on Oct 29, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is right,
but it’s all about making the best team possible. And we’re going to probably lose some significant contributors, like probably at least two of Hudson, Pavano, and Thome.
agreed
But @ least 2 of those 3 were going to regress next season.
Most likely Pavano (given his peripherals indicate there was a good deal of ‘doing it with mirrors’ this season on his part) and Thome. Hudson could probably return his numbers for 1, maybe 2 more years.
But if Hudson asks for a big payoff, his numbers aren’t good enough to grant it. Thome might be encouraged to stay @ discount for a bench-hitting role. Pavano, I see no upside to resigning.
by Shawn Gillogly on Oct 29, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
it's not like he's saying blow the whole team up and start over either though
If the Twins could afford to bring back the exact same team at around the same price I think they would strongly consider it but with just about everyone due raises to some degree that’s just not possible.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Liked...
Most of it. Can’t understand how you can conceivably think Nathan, at his age, and given the surgery, could bounce back and be effective in just a year. Tommy John usually takes a pitcher in his prime on average a year and a half to return from. Look at Crain, Neshek, Liriano as strong cases in point. Given the fact that Nathan has a couple years on each of them, I would imagine closer to the two year mark, and by then he’s going into decline. I’m not saying we don’t try, but I think you offer Fuentes at or around 5-6, you could shave a 1-1.5 off of Crain’s if you tell him that he’s our closer in waiting if Nathan can’t do it. That ensures you have Crain and Fuentes in your bullpen, both of which were strong down the stretch for us, AND it gives us two closing options if Nathan is a no go.

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