The all-in for Greinke plan....
Lots to do this offseason, no doubt. Let's jump right in:
Let them leave: Randy Flores/Ron Mahay. Not much to say here.
Arbitration: I'm offering it to both Pavano and Hudson, and letting them walk. I think Pavano's going to end up with at least one 3-year offer at around $30M and that's just too much considering our other options. And I think Hudson will get a 2-year deal this time, and I don't like the chances for him to be productive/healthy in 2012. I also think Alexi Casilla at 2b is a reasonable area to save money. I'm letting them both walk and collecting 3 top 60 picks. Here's where it gets dicey:
I'm offering arbitration to ALL of Matt Guerrier/Jon Rauch/Jesse Crain. Each could net around $4M for one season, but I think it's a worthy gamble in all 3 cases. I think both Rauch and Crain will want a chance to close and I think they'll both get multi-year offers. If not, I think each is tradeable at 1 year/$4M. And I wouldn't mind Crain back. More on that later. Guerrier's the really big risk IMO. As a Type A, it's going to be tougher for a team to justify signing him. But there is a chance that a team signing higher ranked FA's would sign him as well. And I think it's justifiable to a lot of teams to give up a 2nd or 3rd rd pick for Matt Guerrier. Again, if not, it's either 1 year at $4M or a trade of him at that price. I'd take that risk.
Matt Capps/Brian Fuentes: I'm tendering and trading Capps. There are better, cheaper options in FA this year. With Fuentes, I'm giving him a 2-year deal with a promise at a shot at closing, both to begin 2011, and in 2012 (planning on declining Nathan's option). 2 years/$11M. I'm also re-signing Crain, if possible, for 2 years/$8M, also offering him a shot at closing. In fact, I'd treat the CL role, at least to start 2011, as a platoon. With Nathan hopefully working his way into the mix as the year progresses.
Jim Thome: I'm bringing him back at 1 year/$5M. I share the same concerns as most with him, but I don't see a lot of better options, and I like the depth he provides. Plus, I think the Twins want to see him reach 600 in a Twins uniform and contribute in the clubhouse. I'd use him a little more sparingly (hopefully) in 2011 than in 2010.
Extensions: 2 players I am offering extensions to as perhaps the highest offseason priorities for the team IMO. Francisco Liriano and JJ Hardy. If we wait until next offseason to sign Liriano, I think it'll be too late. I expect him to have a big year next year another year removed from surgery and with a full offseason of rest (he pitched over 240 innings last year including winter ball) and that's going to make his price go through the roof. I'm locking him up for 4 years/$40M. JJ Hardy is much the same. I expect a good year from him next year and a relative return to health. Given the weak SS options, if we don't sign him to an extension now, I think we lose him in 2012, with no forseeable great replacement option. I'm locking him up for 3 years/$20M.
Considerations: Delmon Young and Kevin Slowey. Neither of these may be popular, especially in Slowey's case, but I believe you seriously consider locking both up, whether they're in your future plans or not. Both figure to only get more expensive. I'd consider 3-4 year deals for both.
More after the jump.
The big move happens now:Zack Greinke. I believe in Liriano as an ace, but I think there's no better fit for Zack Greinke than the Minnesota Twins, in terms of contending, prospects, and market. This is the place for him to be. And he fits the Twins profile. Josh Johnson is the only better "ace" fit, but I expect Florida to retain him with the new stadium on the horizon and their extension of him. Here's my trade offer:
Kevin Slowey or Brian Duensing. Tough to say which KC values more. I value Slowey more, still. But KC might value Duensing more. I'd give either up. This offers KC a nice, young, cost-controlled starter who will give them innings.
Ben Revere. I like Revere more than most, but I don't think an OF with Span and Revere can work. Too little power, and I shudder to think of the beating the outfield turf will take with their throws from the OF together. Gives KC a future leadoff hitter who can be a productive player for a long time.
David Bromberg. He's not the level of Gibson or Wimmers in my mind, but he's performed well, and is likely to offer KC something similar to Slowey/Duensing in the near future. For the Twins, it's dealing from excess.
Angel Morales. Again, like Bromberg, he's not the 'name' that Hicks is, but his ceiling is extremely high. And he's performed even better so far in the minors. For the Twins, again, hate to see him go, but it's dealing from excess.
Anthony Slama or Deolis Guerra. Just a filler piece in the trade with a chance to be a solid major leaguer in time.
Overall this is what I'm offering KC. Might be too much, might be too little. But I think that's a fair package for a team with limited trade options. I also extend Greinke through 2014 in the same deal. For a deal at around $17M/season.
I'm skimping in the backup OF position, using Brandon Roberts or Rene Tosoni. Letting Repko go. The 2010 OF isn't ideal at all, but I don't see anything different as likely. And I like Cuddyer and Kubel's chances for big years in their contract years. Plus, both figure to be Type A FA's next year. I'm looking forward to those picks. I'd use Cuddyer as more of a utility guy, playing a lot in RF, but also some at 3b, 1b, DH, and maybe even occasionally at 2b.
I'm also skimping a bit in the bullpen, going with a group of Fuentes/Crain/Mijares/Nathan and 3 young guys. But I think that's fine. I think Waldrop/Burnett/the rotation loser, or Manship can fill in okay here. I'd actually be in favor or using Gibson there to start the year, limiting his innings as his max has to be set at around 180 this year. And if it's not working? Make a deal for someone else, just like this past year. Just don't give up a top prospect for a 2011 non-tender candidate reliever again. I also expect some of the kids, like Gutierrez, to come through by mid-season or so. I'm also skimping in the INF utility role as I don't see a lot of big PH opportunites on this team. I'm going with some combination of Plouffe/Tolbert/Harris/Hughes to help out there.
It's not an infallible team, and the payroll is a bit high, but there's a significant drop-off in 2012, with Benson taking over in RF in my world, and Thome/Kubel/Nathan all gone as well. Finding a cheaper DH option and an in-house closer. And our pitching would be unreal and give us a real shot in the playoffs, especially if Baker is healthy and Liriano takes another step forward. Here it is:
C-Mauer-$23M
1b-Morneau-$15M
2b-Casilla-$1M (arbitration estimate)
SS-Hardy-$6.5M (extension estimate)
3b-Valencia-$500K
RF-Cuddyer-$10.5M
CF-Span-$1M
LF-Young-$5M (arbitration/extension estimate)
DH-Kubel-$5.25M
Bench: Thome-$5M, Tolbert-$500K, Tosoni/Roberts-$500K, Plouffe/Hughes-$500K, Morales/Butera-$500K
Total offense: $74.75M Plus Harris/Punto buyout: $2.05M Total: $76.80M
Greinke-$13.5M (extension to start in 2012)
Liriano-$4M (more money to kick in in 2012)
Baker-$5M
Slowey/Duensing-$2M
Blackburn-$3M
Bullpen: Nathan-$11.25M, Fuentes-$5.5M, Crain-$4M, Mijares-$500K, Burnett-$500K, Waldrop/Slama-$500K, Manship/Gibson-$500K
Total staff: $50.25M
Total team: $127.05M
Unreasonably high? Maybe. But again, it will be significantly less in 2012. I could see the Pohlad's approving something like this for one year. Anyway, that's what I got.
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I like going after Grienke
But I don’t think there is anyway KC trades Greinke without (at least) one of Hicks/Gibson/Sano. They don’t have to trade him. They could wait til midseason or next offseason. This proposed deal doesn’t have one top 100 prospect in it, not one front line starter, not any future stars. It has too many 27 year olds. Would anyone have be ok trading Liriano for a young Juan Pierre and a bunch of filler? KC has a great minor league system right now but they are (somewhat) weak in two areas – RH pitching and true elite CF prospects. Rumors on ESPN said they want Hicks but it might require both Hicks and Gibson.
Your're almost exactly 1 Zack Greinke over the $115 limit.
And I wonder if that’s not almost as big a barrier as the prospects it would cost. It’s hard to add Greinke and not make the team better, but if you’re dumping $13 million somewhere else to get down to $115, your overall improvement maybe isn’t dramatic enough to justify the cost is prospects.
Your prospects package isn’t nutty, but yeah, I’d imagine that Hicks is the guy the Royals would want at the center. I think giving away Hicks AND Gibson is crazy talk. They may ask, but unless we’re brain dead I wouldn’t touch it. Really, I’d almost consider Gibson untouchable. Gibson looms large in our short-term plans.
Maybe
But if you were the Royals, would you trade you franchise player (and fan favorite) for one guy (no matter how good of a prospect) who hasn’t played A+ yet? Esp when the GM is not necessarily liked all that well by his fanbase and might be on the hotseat despite building a great farm system? One year of Santana netted the Twins two players in BA top 100, + two more pitching prospects. I just can’t see how the Royals trade two years of Grienke for only one big time prospect.
I’m curious on how some of our other prospects are regarded around baseball. Could Benson have slipped into the top 100 after his season? The Twins seem to have three big time prospects (Hicks/Sano/Gibson), one who can’t be traded (Wimmers) and maybe one more who could reach the top 100 (Revere). But Benson and Hendriks and Morales all had good seasons and I’m really interested in how they get stacked up.
Here’s a link to John Sickels grading system of the Twins minor league guys.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2010/10/16/1755909/minnesota-twins-top-20-prospects-for-2011
Lot of depth but probably not a lot to excite the Royals if we’re excluding 3 of our 4 top prospects.
I thought that Revere was in the top 100....
and Slowey DOES have a lot of value still IMO. Or Duensing. They’re the only “27 year old” in that deal.
Ben Revere is 22. David Bromberg just turned 23. And Angel Morales is 20.
I guess you could say Slama, but again, that’s just a filler piece.
There’s plenty of upside in that deal if I’m KC. Whether it’s enough or not is a question, sure, but I think it’s fair. Especially when you consider the very small pool of teams that Greinke can even go to. When you take out 1) big market teams, 2) non-contenders, 3) contenders that don’t have the need for Greinke, and 4) contenders that don’t have good prospects, you’re left with a fairly small group.
I really hate the thought of giving up either Gibson or Hicks, even for Greinke. I expect both to be in the top 20 prospects in baseball this year. If push came to shove I’d probably do 1 of them, but definitely not both. And I don’t think any other team would match an offer of both of those 2 either.
Yeah, this.
No one in the Santana deal cracked the top 50. In addition to Sano, I think a number of other prospects will probably make someone’s top 100 if not everyone’s: Wimmers, Revere, Benson, Arcia, Hendricks, and Salcedo. And you’d probably need one of them in the deal if you weren’t including MLB talent. Someone like Slowey or Duensing packaged with Hicks would be pretty damn serious. Maybe too serious for my tastes.
You’re talking about:
Twins give:
Hick’s 6 years of team control
Slowey’s last 3 years of team control
Royals give:
2 years of Greinke
The Twins will pay about 26 million to Greinke for the 2 years and the Royals will pay much less than that for the 9 years. It’s too much, right? (I reserve the right to change my mind on this several times during the offseason)
Slowey's value
Is really being overrated, here. If the Royals are making this trade, it’s with 2013 in mind. Why would they want to add a pitcher who is just getting expensive and rates as a mid rotation guy, at best? Fangraphs WAR had him only slightly better than the Royals craptacular Kyle Davies.
I think one way to look at this is would Twin fans be insulted if the Rangers offered Scott Feldman, Engel Beltre, Luke Jackson, Justin Grimm and Miquel Velaquez for Liriano? It’s a comparable offer. Rangers would be saying things like, ’Feldman’s 09 is the real Feldman, and we’ve thrown in a B- prospect (like Revere), 3 C+ prospects (one more than the Twins offer)’
Disagree...
that package is not close to as good as the Twins one proposed here.
As for the 2013 point...
I view Slowey or Duensing more as the “good” replacement in the rotation for them for the next couple of years. Not as a future centerpiece. There’s still value in that. The Royals will want some immediate impact for any trade for Greinke IMO. Slowey/Duensing probably offer that about as well as any other plausible traded player for him.
I got that
But they’ll still want a centerpiece and Revere doesn’t cut it.
I'd say the "centerpiece"...
would be the Bromberg/Morales combo, with the “good/valuable” parts being Revere/Slowey.
Admittedly
I’m basically going off of John Sickels rankings. None of the players involved are top 100 guys. The package might not be as good, but the pitchers aren’t the same either.
Liriano and Grienke are the same age, both have two more years of control and one has a Cy Young, pitched twice as many innings, has been healthier and has been by far the better pitcher thus far in their careers. That may change going forward, Liriano was better this year, but it’s not a sure thing.
He just missed
John Manuel: “Revere didn’t miss by much. Jim Callis and I recorded a podcast that sounds awful thanks to my poor technical skills; we’ll try to do it again. But in the podcast we talked about Revere, and I think I wish he was on most of anyone who missed. He missed because there are questions about his defense and power; if you’re grading him out, his speed and hit tools are both well above-average, his power and arm are both below or well-below, and his defense is fringy if not below. He’s a tough call; our voting left him just out.” John Sickels ranks him a B/B- guy: “I still like him, but I’m growing more concerned about the lack of power, and he needs to use his speed better.”
I'd love it if you could do it
But I highly doubt that KC bites on Revere. I’m guessing one of Gibson/Hicks will be involved… like it or not.
I’m fine with getting Greinke, but I don’t think this matchup is as good as you’d like, especially now that we don’t have a guy like Ramos to throw in there. Revere just isn’t that good, and personally, I think Benson is better both now and will likely have a better career too.
by diehardtwinsfan on Nov 6, 2010 11:18 PM EDT reply actions

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