It's Official: Twins Trade J.J. Hardy, Brendan Harris, $500,000 to Orioles for Jim Hoey, Brett Jacobson
by Jesse on Dec 9, 2010 12:21 PM EST
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PrintAu revoir, J.J.
Sometimes in life, things happen that you just don't understand. Sometimes in baseball, a front office has to make what will be a very unpopular decision. Well, the Twins didn't have to make that decision, but they did anyway.
At first glance this looks like a classic coal-raking, with the Minnesota front office getting the back side of their expensive suit trousers getting singed: they just traded one of the best defensive shortstops in baseball, and one of the better offensive shortstops in basball, for a pair of minor league relievers and half a million dollars. How much clearer can you get: "We don't like you, J.J. Hardy, and we don't like you so much we'll pay another team to take you off our hands."
But the money isn't for Hardy. The money is for Brendan Harris; about one third of what he'll be paid in 2011.
Instead, this is a deal about Hardy and the two arms the Twins are receiving in return: Brett Jacobson and Jim Hoey. Two career minor leaguers, two power arms, two guys who aren't getting paid more than the Major League minimum. Hoey, who will be the one who plays for the Twins if either of them do, offers a mid to upper-90s fastball as well as a changeup and slider. We talked this morning about his strikeout track record in the minor leagues: it's amazing. It looks like it's Anthony Slama-type amazing, but they're good numbers nevertheless. Jacobson, meanwhile, is projectable but 24 and about to pitch in double-A for the first time.
It's obvious that the Twins didn't like something about Hardy. If I can make it ever more plain: the Twins just didn't value Hardy. As an organization, they were clearly looking at the future and decided that Hardy wasn't going to be in their plans beyond 2011. In fact, I believe that if they had made a pros and cons list for this trade, it would have looked something like this:
Keep Hardy: 1 year eligibility, great defense, .750 OPS, cost of $6 million, no compensation at year's end
Trade Hardy: 1 year of Casilla, average defense, .700 OPS, 2 power arm relievers, plus team control, cost > $2 million
And when you look at it like this, it's not quite so bad. It's a business decision involving trade-offs of talent, production, money and even a return on investment: Hardy would have to have a pretty big year in 2011 to become even a Type-B free agent. I'm not trying to do anything regarding urine while telling you it's raining, but it's not like this trade is the end of the world.
Do I think it's a bad deal? Definitely. But I also see why the Twins made the decision. After days of agonizing over what was going to happen, now it has, and I at least sort of get it. Even if I vehemently disagree with the decision.
Best of luck to J.J. Hardy and Brendan Harris.
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Fuck you, Bill Smith.
You just traded one of the 5 best shortstops in baseball (think about that for a second) for a bag of balls.
Sometimes this Front Office… UGH.
by Patrick42 on Dec 9, 2010 12:32 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
re: " It’s a business decision involving trade-offs of talent, production, money and even a return on investment"
Edit: It’s a really poor business decision involving failing to rationally weigh trade-offs of talent, production, money and even a return on investment.
Also, I’d add the serial comma after money, but those were the important things.
Re: the comma
That’s a British thing…after writing a few thousand emails to Brits, you get used to their punctuation use. And spelling. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve spelled something here like “colour” and have had to delete it.
The Orioles are going to be a contender in the AL East
Look what happened last time we traded our shortstop to an underachieving AL East team.
by #8 guy on Dec 9, 2010 12:34 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Go get a veteran utility infielder
Or we could be back to the situation we were in with the Harris / Punto / Casilla infield crew.
Harris went with Hardy in the trade
Punto might be on his way to Cleveland
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Dec 9, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Talking about talent level
Not the particular players
What utility infielders are available
I’d love to have someone like Jon McDonald, but I think he’s a Blue Jay for life. Are there others?
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Asked and answered
Counsell, Bloomquist, Guzman, Hairston, Iwamura
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Also Punto
(cmathewson’s head explodes)
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Only thing I can think of
is they thought Hardy was good, but not worth the ($6M?) they were supposed to pay for him this year
Best of luck in that crap hole JJ, you’ll need it
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Dec 9, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions
Agreed
At least he didn’t go to Pittsburgh. We can see this as leverage because the Twins did pick up a few minor leaguers that can be involved in the package for Zach Grinkie.
At least he didn't go to Pittsburg?
Why would that have been worse?
I admit, I’m a little nervous about the Twins trying to get Greinke, especially after this trade. I’d love to have him, but the FO doesn’t seem to have a great grasp on player worth, so we’d probably end up overpaying for him.
Because
Pittsburgh has nothing I want or even Twins fans want. The knock on the Pirates is that they are a Triple AAA team and always try to get rid of their top players.
Really?
McCutchen? Tabata? Walker? Hanrahan? Meeks? None of these sound good to you?
and
they would trade any of them for Hardy…NOT
In Bill Smith We Trust....sort of
by carlpavanosmoustache on Dec 10, 2010 1:28 AM EST up reply actions
We absolutely would
If we want to pry a Cy Young pitcher away from a division rival, we will absolutely have to overpay.
Maybe this was just practice for that trade…
this seems almost like a shot at JJ...
why?
It’s not his fault Gardenhire’s an idiot. I hope JJ has an amazing year this year now and sticks it to Gardy.
Just handed Nishioka leverage
We need him to sign now, and even though he said something about money not being a huge issue, he should take advantage of our need.
That was my first thought, too
The timing of this trade seems as bad or worse than the trade itself. Though I suppose since Hardy was so obviously being dangled, the leverage was implicitly there, anyway.
by EmeraldTwinkie on Dec 9, 2010 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
In the short term ...
B.S. (good initials for the guy) will have a lot of very unhappy fans. He would have to make a bigger splash on the free agent market than the organization can afford just to tone down the criticism. Getting Pavstache and Thome back isn’t going to make up for this. I guess we’ll wait and see what things may come. Maybe the Twins are the phantom team that offered Lee a 7 year deal. Ha.
I Agree about Thome/Pavano
Would I like them back? Sure, but they cant be our only moves. It just doesn’t add up.
Gack
It’s beyond my understanding. Hardy is absolutely worth that salary, and now you are going forward with a guy who is as likely to be below replacement level as above (Casilla) and another guy who has never played major league baseball as your middle infield?
I thought those days were over.
Perhaps they needed the payroll flexibility, though if it was just to bring back Pavano, it was a bad chioice IMO.
Even then, it remains a surprise that they couldn’t get a better package.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 9, 2010 12:54 PM EST reply actions
Is there a bigger picture here?
I agree with you all, I would have kept Hardy. Are there any competent SS available (better than Casilila) that we are targeting? I’m trying to figure this trade out…
Brendan Ryan is the only guy left
And no, he’s not better than Hardy
That's what I was thinking
I also think there’s a chance that they were afraid of Hardy’s injuries. A player who only plays 100 games might be a risk.
He was certainly worth $6 million
He posted a 2.4 WAR last year despite missing almost 60 games. The market rate of a win right now is about $5 million, so JJ was worth almost $12.5 million last year.
For some perspective, the entire Twins bullpen WAR was 3.2. I don’t see how two marginal relief arms are compensation for one of the best defensive SS in the game.
If it was an issue with money, then why resign Kubel, Hardy is certainly a more valuable piece than Kubel.
Probably even more reasonable from the Twins' perspective
Keep Hardy: 1 year eligibility, great defense, .750 OPS, cost of $6 million, no compensation at year’s end
Trade Hardy: 1 year of Casilla, average defense, .700 OPS, 2 power arm relievers, plus team control, cost > $2 million
From the comments Gardy made about Casilla’s defense, I don’t think the team views him as a defensive downgrade from Hardy. It’s never appeared that the Twins put much stock in advanced defensive metrics (other than maybe the Adam Everett acquisition, although basically everyone agreed he was pretty good), and I think this is just another example of their old-school mindset regarding defense – if a guy looks good playing defense, that means he’s a good defender. That applies to some guys (Punto, Mientkeiwicz) but hasn’t so far been the case for Casilla, at least at second base.
I’m not ruling out, by the way, the possibility that Casilla’s better at short than at second. I’m not saying it’s likely, either, but it’s certainly plausible.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
In brief playing time, Casilla actually outplayed Hardy in 2010
It seems sort of insane to put much stock in such a brief sample size when the whole of Casilla’s career is a .633 OPS with average defense, at best. But…he is on the young side. (I’m trying to talk myself into this and it’s just not working.)
good rational thought here.
while i think we at TT may overvalue hardy, i’m predicting a monster year from JJ this year.
Could UZR favor players who play deep?
Where does the pitchers zone end and the shortstop’s zone begin? I’m thinking if the shortstop prevents more infield hits (in the pitcher’s zone) but allows more singles through the hole, he’s penalized by UZR. Just a thought. I would rather have a guy who can play deep. But there might be something to being able to play shallow in terms of the number of outs the shortstop gets to.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Good question
If the play’s made in the pitcher’s zone, it would be counted as an out-of-zone play, and he’d get credit for it, albeit with it accounted differently in the stats. However, I don’t know how out-of-zone plays’ credit in UZR compares to how much you lose for missing an in-zone play – it’s certainly possible that the benefit of playing deep is overstated by UZR.
I’d also note, though, that a ball that gets through the infield is more valuable than an infield hit, because it can advance the runners farther.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Personally
I think if the Twins are trying to make a splash in the free agency market by either re-signing Orlando Hudson or signing David Eckstein. Both are second basemen, and the Twins might have a two to three year deal in the works here.
If Eckstein is the splash
He’ll drag you down to the bottom and drown you
the plan is to trade Danny Valencia and sign Eckstein and LNP
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 9, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Now my head really does explode
Stop it. They won’t grow back forever.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
but think of how many minor league relievers we could get for Valencia!
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 9, 2010 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
David Eckstein
Is listed by yahoo as a 2nd baseman.
How do Hoey and Jacobson rank?
…I just plugged both of them into my computer, which spit out some interesting numbers. Had Hoey been in the organization last year at New Britain and Rochester, he would have ranked #13 amongst all the pitchers in our organization. Right after Carlos Gutierrez and before Matt Fox. Current relievers in the organization who had better years were Waldrop, Holbrooks, Slama, Gonzalez and Bullock.
Jacobson would have ranked #64. Now I expect the scouts know a lot about each of these and the reasons why they are expected to be good bullpen guys in the future. Expect Hoey may be pretty good as he is coming back from surgery. Also saw that Jacobson is currently pitching with the Perth Heat, same team as Liam Hendriks.
Minor league relievers are by definition
marginal prospects. Hoey is 28 years old and walks too many guys, Jacobson is 24 and hasn’t seen AA. Even if one of them pans out, it isn’t a good trade. Guys who can strike out A ball hitters in short stints are not exactly in short supply.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Dec 9, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Looks to me that Gardy didn't want Hardy on his team...
…middle infield in 2011 will be Nishioka at second and Casilla at short. Look for the backup infielders to be Tolbert and Luke Hughes. Plouffe will be in Rochester, ready to come up if/when someone is needed.
The surprise to this deal may be that Hughes gets a chance to prove what the Twins may believe, ie, he has a very good right handed bat.
Hope and pray is not a plan
This is a contender, not a wanna-be break even team. Don’t mess with it.
leaving guys in AAA forever isn't a good plan either.
Really we lose Hardy and by my count the Twins have 3 guys that could help in replacing him with Casilla, Plouffe, and Hughes. I know Hughes can’t play SS but he can handle 2B and Nishioka could likely scoot over. It’s not that awful of an idea. Worked last year with Valencia coming up, worked a couple years before that with Span. Plouffe has a real shot to improve, he’s young and there’s a reason he was drafted so high. Could have a similar career path to Span if we’re lucky.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Hughes can't replace Hardy
Plouffe hasn’t proven he’s ready yet. You don’t just promote people to the majors because they’ve been hanging around a while.
My point being they're not just "hoping and praying."
The Twins have more than one guy that can step in. Do they have a top prospect ready to take over, no. Do they have multiple guys with big league potential that deserve a shot? None of them are incredibly exciting by any means but they have four guys Nishioka, Plouffe, Hughes, and Casilla that they can use to fill the two middle infield spots. You’re acting as though the Twins management is completely ignorant because you disagree with one small move. The same management that has won 6 AL central titles the past decade including a 94 win team last season.
Yes I wish we had more options too, but this management doesn’t just “hope and pray.”
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
If you don't want those guys to stay in AAA forever...
…trade them for nothing instead of your established starter.
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Dec 9, 2010 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Problem with that plan
Really we lose Hardy and by my count the Twins have 3 guys that could help in replacing him with Casilla, Plouffe, and Hughes.
It is not a sure thing, let along likely, that any of these guys are better than JJ Hardy, at least during the 2011 season.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
I would add Yoshi to that list
He might prove to be better than Casilla at short. I wouldn’t be surprised based on the highlight films.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I think you guys are missing the clear rationale
At least in they think that the only way for this team to improve was to add speed to the lineup. It has been stated a million times this offseason by everyone in the Twins FO. This may have been a salary dump to some extent, and they may not have really understood the value of JJ Hardy, but i will bet a dollar to doughnuts that they looked at Hardy and Casilla and said we can add speed to our lineup by playing Casilla everyday.
I bet they see Cailla and Hardy as about equals defensively and what they loose in Power potential (remember Hardy hasn’t mashed in 2 years now, which means they are more or less hoping that his power eventually returns) Casilla can make up for in OBP and speed.
I like having Hardy’s power potential on my team, and if this were the 06-09 Twins that would be an absolute must, but with Kubel, Morneau, Young, Thome?!?!, Valencia, and even Mauer, the Twins are no longer in desperate need of power.
This deal has definate risk of being an emarassing trade for the Twins, but i cannot call it that right now.
Casilla career OBP: .306. Hardy: .323
I mean I guess you just hope and pray that Casilla’s ready to make a step forward and that the crummy numbers he racked up were just learning curve for a young player. But between hope and pray versus solid MLB regular, I’d take solid MLB regular.
And yeah, speed is a big rationale for doing it. But it’s not a good rationale.
Huh?
solid major league regular at 7 mil a year, on a tight budget?
Heck yes. On a 1-year commitment: double heck yes.
Depending on what your definition of average is, an average MLB starting position player is worth something like 12.5 million on the free agent market this year. Perfect example this year: Paul Konerko.
I don't know
This was one (fairly open) place to add speed. We were probably already upgrading on speed using someone else instead of O-dog. But we have three outfield positions… two of which don’t have anybody who can steal a base. If they were that worried about speed, why wouldn’t we shop for someone who would improve both our defense and our overall speed? Because our outfield D could definitely use some upgrade.
I know that would probably include trading away Delmon, but I don’t like that it wasn’t even in the conversation if our big concern was footspeed.
What I fear
Hardy, Nishioka and Casilla are all tremendous risks. Hardy is an injury risk and NC have a shortage of major league at bats. If one of them goes down you are trotting out Plouffe, Hughes, Tolbert etc. Barring one of those 3 finding a swing adjustment like Bautista, there is an incredible risk that you are sending out a blackhole every single day in the middle infield. Just on a personal level, I would prefer to take the risks in the bullpen where the guys don’t pitch every single day as opposed to a middle infield position. If this is about saving money to put elsewhere, I don’t really see an elsewhere more important than shortstop and second base. So yes I say bring on disaster pen 11 with Waldrop, Slama, Burnett, Perkins, and Neshek as opposed to 2 pirahnas and a leaking boat.
The trade
Essentially this trade was money for JJ Hardy (and Harris whatever his prospects may be).
Any rewards from the two minors guys (leaning on unlikely) are a bonus.
In total, an absolute steal for the Orioles, the Twins front office probably is happy with itself saving some dollars, and the fans are left pissed.
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but
Essentially this trade was money for JJ Hardy (and Harris whatever his prospects may be).
It looks like the $500,000 is coming from our pockets. We paid them.
Exactly
this trade fails even as a salary dump.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 9, 2010 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
It's still a pretty effective salary dump
The Twins are giving up players costing roughly $8M, and they’re only chipping in $500k to the Orioles. Even factoring in the costs of the minor league guys, the Twins will take something like $7M off the books with this trade.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Head-scratcher
I don’t like this trade, but the comments here seem to fall into the Gleeman-esque “the front office is dumb” category. I’ve come to expect more from this board. Let’s face it, we’re all sitting at our desks a loooong way from the winter meetings. Maybe this truly was the best offer out there.
Or maybe Bill Smith needs to join President Obama in negotiating school.
I will anxiously await a rationale.
The why-we-had-to-trade-him part is what I don’t understand. Much more than the return we got. (Although I’m not crazy about that either).
Another head scratcher
Why are people so emotionally attached to Hardy? He played, what, 120 games? He played some nice defense, but I don’t think I will “miss” him the way some people will, apparently.
It's not an emotional attachment
I was “attached” to Hardy because he was the best shortstop on the Twins’ roster and is now being replaced by Alexi Casilla.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Perhaps for you...
but quotes like this from posters: “I will always be a fan of yours” indicate emotional attachment.
Absolutely no emotional attachment to Hardy.
Actually, on a purely like-him basis, I like Casilla more. It’s just about who’s going to help us win more.
Oh I am emotionally attached to Hardy
Because I thought he was a really fun guy. And he had some great walk-up music.
But that is not the only reason I’m having problems with this trade. The biggest being: now we have an entire infield full of people who may have huge problems. Not one of our guys is a sure thing. And our MI is two guys who still have to prove they can play well at the Major League level.
We did not NEED to trade him.
Which is why most people are furious. We should have just held on to him. He hit about average for SS and his defense is superb, and at a premium defensive position. Look, I don’t think anybody here would be opposed to a trade where we got a decent return for him. But we got more or less a bag of balls in return, and left with a player who, when given the chance to start, sucked more wiener than a pornstar. Oh and players coming from Japan have about at 50% chance of succeeding at the MLB level. So we have to worry about both middle infield positions. We dealed from a position of weakness, when we did not need too and got sh*t for return. This is why we are all pissed.
"FTYITAWAB" -less cowbell, more 'neau
Must. vent.
Best of luck to JJ, and Harris too.
But FBS. I was just staring to like you, and now you do this?
Bucky's 5th Quarter The best site for Badger news on the web!
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On, Wisconsin!
My feelings exactly.
FBS. I’ve completely had my mind changed this year on the Twins FO and Gardy. I don’t see the logic to this move. Gardy can’t win in the post series. While I was trying to rationalize Gardy, as he is a tremendous regular season manager, this deal reeks of his speedy BYTO loving hands. I now feel that the management and FO needs to be replaced or at the very least restructured.
This deal has completely destroyed all of my confidence in the Twins management. They owe it to the players and most importantly the fans (We pay your salaries and payed for your stadium too!) to put the best possible team out every year (with in the scope of rationality, naturally). This deal puts neither the best team on the field (Hardy> and Yoshi is an unknown) and hurts us in the long run by allowing us to pursue Pavano and overpay for him. Oh and we could have at least asked for a pack of baseball cards because those cards would be worth more than two minor league pitchers.
In summary of my rant: This deal is illogical and pisses me off!
"FTYITAWAB" -less cowbell, more 'neau
Yep
This is what we get for catering to the whims of the “AL Manager of the Year.” He couldn’t handle having guys who didn’t fit his overly formalistic view of what middle infielders should be (Scrappy and speedy) no matter how productive they actually were. Hardy was probably one of the most underrated players on last year’s team, both due to his excellent defense and solid offense (for a position like shortstop). Unfortunately Gardenhire and the front office have firmly placed themselves in the category of people who couldn’t see or understand his worth.
Bitterly disappointing deal.
I have a hypothesis.
Maybe this means Sano is closer than we think? Is he playing winter ball anywhere?
42
Ha! I like your thinking.
But I think he’s due for something like a full season at rookie league next year. Only, what, 4 or 5 more levels to go before MLB.
This sucks :(
Good luck JJ. I will always be a fan of yours.
"Danny Valencia is a fricking stud! Hide your daughters!"
-Denard Span
+1
I liked him when he was with the Brewers. I was ecstatic when we got him for Gomez (that was a steal). The way he played at the end of the year showed he was healthy, and fixed the problems with his swing. He is certainly due for a career year next year. I had hoped that the FO and Gardenhire saw this. I guess not. I would have signed him to a contract extension. Instead, the FO traded him for a bag of balls.
"FTYITAWAB" -less cowbell, more 'neau
I actually like Casilla and Nishioka individually
And would be willing to take a chance on either of them. But both of them? With Morneau coming off a head injury and Valencia by no means a lock to repeat his 2010? That is just a lot of question marks for one infield.
by midwestmodeltrainenthusiast on Dec 9, 2010 2:27 PM EST reply actions
by a lot of question marks
you must mean – ALL OF THEM
Maybe they just like Casilla more than we thought
Their thinking has to be that the difference between JJ and Alexi was not worth $5 million, and they could improve the team more by spending that money elsewhere. I hope they’re right.
If Casilla can’t stay consistent, and Nishioka can’t deliver, this gamble could really drag the team down. But I guess we can’t judge this trade until we see what they do with the money they saved. Right now, though, it looks like a straight up trade of Hardy for Nishioka. So, we’ll see.
oh, who am I kidding
This totally sucks. This is exactly the type of move the publicly funded stadium was supposed to prevent. It’s a salary dump, pure and simple. We’re back the the old AAAA infield of old.
Not sure if someone already noted this ...
perhaps this move has dual purposes:
1) unloading payroll for free agents signings that leave me luke warm (Pavs, Thome)
AND 2) backfilling the minor league roster as Slama, Burnett and company are promoted.
Yeah, I don’t think it holds water either.
Just one of those guys
Barry Bonds
Randy Moss
Tarrel Owens
JJ Hardy
Some guys are just not worth the headache they create in the locker room.
Huh?
Don’t disparage people as they leave the organization. That’s just sour grapes.
Microsoft Office 2011
Bill Gates needs to make sure his team finally includes that sarcasm font we have heard so much about.
by PinkiePinkerton on Dec 9, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Don't forget
Joe Mauer – baddest of the bad apples
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Dec 9, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
JJ Hardy always did come off as a real clubhouse problem.
Being so loud and in your face and everything.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
I would assume no
Only heard great things about JJ
Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD
Why do we all have to be so negative about this?
I mean, the Twins did get rid of Brendan Harris here.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
I just got a text at work telling me about this.
My reaction was to let out an audible throughout the office, “F*** that. So stupid.” and throw some wadded up paper at my computer. I don’t get it.
"The benefits are...a tad more range up the middle."
This was LENIII thoughts on the deal. I don’t mean to rip on him, because in general LEN is very good, but WTH? Was this really his take or the FO’s take reissued? I mean, there are a handful of criticisms you can launch at JJ (injury risk, poor on base skills, slow on the base paths), but defense is not one of them…ridiculous even. Does the brass really believe that Hardy was a below average defender?
I will certainly lament the opportunity to watch JJ play SS in a Twins uni going forward. It really was just a thing of beauty. It seemed like every night there was a ball hit in the hole and I was upset that a bleeder got thru. Amazingly, Hardy got there and would field it cleanly, effortlessly. At that point I would think, “wow, that’s hella range,” but expected an infield single. Again, Hardy would surprise and fire a bullet to first to make the out.
Defense is my favorite part of baseball. It’s probably because I was a no stick, speedy glove man in my days on the diamond. Watching Hardy play defense was poetry in motion. An MJ turnaround jumper, a Kareem sky hook, a Gretzky deke, a Nabokov block, a Pujols AB, a Griffey swing, a Halladay start, a Gutierrez catch, a Montana thread (yes, I realize I am getting carried away)…some things are just sweet and delicious to watch. JJ Hardy was like this on D. Not flashy and even seeming to defy physics at times (he is not fleet of foot), he gets to balls that 95% of those who have played this game never even could get leather on. His arm was a bazooka, allowing him to make throws from the hole that only Uribe, Ripken and a few others would even attempt. He does not get many web gems because what others have to make spectacular looking, JJ makes them look routine.
Good luck JJ. We hardly knew ye.
I think the Twins honestly believe this
By all indications, the Twins appear to believe that “speed = range” (which I will grant is generally true in the outfield). I’ve never seen any indication that they put much stock in advanced defensive statistics, which I believe pretty consistently show Casilla with poor range at second and Hardy with exceptional range at short.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Yes, Gardy really believes Hardy was a poor defender
That’s the only rationale for this trade. Read Gardy’s quotes on Casilla at short. “He’s athletic,” “acrobatic,” “He can come in and get the ball.” Gardy doesn’t like middle infielders who read the game, make the play, and have strong arms. Even though statistically, smarts+arm trumps athleticism.
He likes “scrappy” effort guys who “hustle” to prove their worth. And if you think in the field, you weren’t hustling. The fact that Gardy can’t even read fielding % and see that Casilla is 30 points worse as a shortstop doesn’t matter. (And fielding percentage is hardly an ‘advanced metric.’) Casilla ‘hustles’ so he’s the right guy…for now.
by Shawn Gillogly on Dec 9, 2010 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
I sort of thought this about Ramos, and I think it may be the case with Hardy too
that the organization maybe knows something that we don’t. Hardy was out for a while last year and I don’t think he was every really healthy, I just don’t believe wrist tendonitis goes away if you keep playing every day. I thought the Twins got rid of Ramos when people thought his stock was much higher than it actually probably was. Hardy was a good defender, but randomly sucked at throwing to first more often than anyone would like. I him the best, but I don’t think he’s nearly as good as some people seem to think. He had one awesome year, and has yet to come close to those numbers again, I personally doubt he ever will.
by ctxsix on Dec 9, 2010 6:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
One downside to Hardy you didn't mention:
He gets hurt just about every single year. Sure, I like the guy too and he’s still young and could have a monster year, but the dude has been hurt like 4 seasons in a row. I guess being the best at defense comes with a price of sitting out anywhere from 1/6th to 1/3rd of the season.
We also fail to realize the twins have made trades like this leaving us scratching our head (like the pierzinski trade, eventho we had mauer coming up) but those guys turned out pretty well for us. Maybe the twins see something that others don’t and we’ll be whining about dealing Hoey to the Yankees for 5 players in a few years from now.
you know who else gets injured a lot? Even more than Hardy?
Nishioka. So how is this an upgrade in any way, including injuries?
I don't see what the big deal is.
Hardy didn’t come across as anything special to me. If we’re focusing on great defense only, we might as well put LNP out there every night. He’s not anything special on offense, and I think Casilla is a capable replacement and he might be ready for a break-out year. We’ll see.
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
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