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OF defense


Everyone expects our outfield defense to be pretty horrible. Even though we have a bunch of total homers in this community, we've all come together on this point. So........ I'm going to politely disagree. Ok only a little.

First, I think our defense is going to be bad, as in below average. But, I think our predictions might be a bit too dire. First, as someone pointed out, corner outfield is just low on most priority lists (not negligible, just not a top concern). As Joe Posnanski said "He plays good defense in left field which is a bit like being a punter who who can tackle — handy, but mostly beside the point".

Secondly, I'm going with my guy, and saying that the stats are missing something. I don't use a stopwatch to clock Span, and I don't have the playing/coaching experience to be able to read the quality of his positioning and jumps. But he looks fast (really fast). He hit a triple at yankee stadium a couple of years ago, and the people around me couldn't believe how quickly he got around the bases. I have the same reaction watching him run in the outfield.

Star-divide

Delmon - the guy looks like he needs a hip transplant. Seriously, the average 75 year old is as flexible. But, I don't understand how his numbers slid so far from Tampa. Baseball players help me out - either his stats were inflated in TB, are deflated here, or shifting from right to left is harder than it seems. Also, he's fast, even if he doesn't change direction well. And the putouts have to be worth something (less than range, obviously).

Cuddyer - not fast (very not fast). But, he looks like he gets to a good number of balls, and people do seem to hold up on him. I just don't understand why his numbers cratered from before.

Kubel - ok, Kubel just does not look like an outfielder. He looks slow, and awkward. They used to say he had a great arm in the minors, but it doesn't look like it to me.

Ok, so now I've covered my gut reaction, but this site demands analysis. So, how can I support my claim. Alright, here goes. I think that Gomez ruined our outfield. ....No, that's not quite right.... How about this: Gomez stole the stats. Yeah, that sounds better.

If I understand UZR (I might not), then players get credit for every ball in their zone they get to, compared to the expected number for that position, plus they get credit for balls out of their zone. So, Gomez's ridiculous stats mean that he got all of the balls in his zone, and lots of them out of his zone. The question is, if Gomez didn't get the balls out of his zone, who would? I think that a lot of these would have gone to the other guys (some would have been hits). Every out of zone ball he caught, was in someone else's zone. In this respect, you almost have to look at the OF as a whole, and compare them to average.

As a whole, the OF defense was still bad (if you can just add up UZRs, I don't know if that works, but I get like - 30). But I'm wondering if they'll look better individually without Gomez, if everyone only puts up a -5, or something, for an aggregate -20 for the year, with good to great offense.

Lastly, if I'm wrong, and this isn't it, then Young needs to go to RF, and Cuddyer to LF. But, I dont' think that's the problem. Any amateur scouts want to tell me if there's a real difference?

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Three rightfielders

The Twins can hide a player in their short RF. Unfortunately they have three guys they need to hide there. Span is a middling CF. If one of those guys had the speed for LF the OF defense would be fine.

by DJL44 on Feb 8, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions  

Span

I honestly don’t think Span is half as bad as people think. The sample size of his innings in CF are quite small and he has consistently been a plus outfielder since drafted. He has incredible speed and he catches just about everything hit to him. He doesn’t take bad routes, either so what am I not seeing that makes him a poor centerfielder?

Personally, I think we’ll have this same discussion next year and we’ll be talking about what a stud defensive CF he is. The numbers just don’t jive with what I see when watching the game.

by TheBlackFreighter on Feb 8, 2010 1:06 PM EST up reply actions  

agree

That’s my impression too, and I think that fielding stats require phenomenally large sample sizes to be meaningful, but what do I know.

by snolls on Feb 8, 2010 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Fielding stats

take twice as long as batting stats to stabilize. 2 complete years of UZR should be regressed 50% to the mean. So going forward a defender is not expected to be as good or bad as they look with a small sample of UZR.

by Jon Kammerer on Feb 8, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

I like Span and Cuddy

I think those two are as good as any CF, RF combo. Delmon might look slow and lumbering but he makes the plays and throws runners out. Just for the sake of it could we name a couple of better defencive outfields. Angels? Yanks?, Boston? Who?

by b1 on Feb 9, 2010 11:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Other defensive outfields in just the AL

Baltimore: Reimold/Scott/Pie, Jones, Markakis
Boston: Ellsbury, Cameron, Drew
Chicago: Pierre, Rios, Quentin
Cleveland: Brantley, Sizemore, Choo
Detroit: Raburn, Thomas/Jackson, Ordonez
Kansas City: Podsednik, Ankiel, DeJesus
Angels: Rivera, Hunter, Abreu
New York: Gardner, Granderson, Swisher
Oakland: Davis, Crisp, Sweeney
Seattle: Bradley, Gutierrez, Suzuki
Tampa: Crawford, Upton, Kapler
Texas: Cruz, Borbon, Hamilton
Toronto: Lind, Wells, Snider

On this list, I’d say the only teams that are even close to the Twins defensively are the Angels (Rivera, Abreu at corners) and Blue Jays (Ditto for Lind and Snider). But even though Hunter and Wells have both lost a step, they’re still above average and probably better than Span in the field.

by Adam Peterson on Feb 10, 2010 7:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Of those teams

The clearly inferior outfield defenses are within the division, especially Chicago, Detroit and Kansas City.

The best is Seattle (again). Boston’s is great (I might flip/flop Drew and Elllsbury because of the Fenway dimensions). The Yankees have a stellar crew out there. And Upton/Crawford might be the best pair in the league. But Kaplar? Meh. I might prefer Zobrist out there.

The Twins are in the upper part of the middle group. This is how I would rank them:

1. Seattle
2. Boston
3. New York
4. Tampa

5. Twins
6. Oakland
7. Toronto
8 LA
9. Cleveland
10. Baltimore
11. Texas

12. Detroit
13. Chicago
14. Kansas City

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 10, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

A little high

I’d have Oakland (Rajai Davis is a CF in LF) and LA both ahead of the Twins. Abreu is equivalent to Cuddyer and I have to give Rivera the edge over Delmon. I like Cleveland just a little better too, Sizemore is really good. Pie/Jones/Markakis is very underrated on your list, they’re probably 6th after OAK. That drops the Twins from 5th to 9th, still ahead of Toronto (which is bad, Wells is below average and the corners are terrible) and the rest of the AL Central. They’re going to be close to CLE and LAA.

There are some brutal OF defenses in this division.

by DJL44 on Feb 10, 2010 11:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Why are Detroit and Chicago below the Twins?

Austin Jackson is supposed to be a + defender and Ordonez and Raburn in the corner OF are better defenders than Cuddyer and a combination of Young/Kubel. The Sox have a great defensive replacement in Jones, Rios has been a great defender historically and Pierre is an average to slightly above average fielder in LF. Quentin is about on par with Young and Kubel.

And, Oakland’s outfield D features 3 CF’s and is easily among the best in MLB. They are definitely ahead of the Twins outfield.

by Scottwood on Feb 10, 2010 7:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

Austin Jackson might be a plus defender, but we don’t know that yet. At best, he’s equal to Span. Ordonez is the slowest right fielder in baseball, way slower than Cuddyer. I saw enough of Raburn last year to know he’s no better than Young.

Rios was a good right fielder, but he’s not a good center fielder, far below Span. And he’s flanked by below average corner men. Pierre has lost a step but might be the equal of Young. Quentin never had a step, a few steps slower than Cuddyer.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 10, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah

And RF in MN is all messed up in UZR. Gotta go with scouts to compare the RF in this division.

I agree about Rios – good in RF, challenged in CF. Quentin is terrible.

by DJL44 on Feb 11, 2010 10:27 AM EST up reply actions  

There is nothing to suggest that Rios is bad in CF

Even after applying a positional adjustment from his great numbers in RF, he would still rate as an above average defensive CF.

by Scottwood on Feb 11, 2010 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Positional adjustments

Positional adjustments alone suggest Joe Crede can play SS.

by DJL44 on Feb 11, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Rios has rated well in a limited sample in CF

Its not just looking at positional adjustments. He is a very good fielder.

by Scottwood on Feb 11, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions  

UZR needs large samples to be valid

Rios is a corner outfielder. He’s just not quick enough to be a plus defender in center. He’s better than Podsednik, but that’s not saying much.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 11, 2010 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Whoa, there
Pierre has lost a step but might be the equal of Young.

Yeah, I know Pierre has mediocre instincts and no arm, but “might be the equal of Young”? You’ve seen Delmon play, right? Pierre wasn’t a great centerfielder, but he was generally competent (his career UZR/150 out there is -1.8, even with last year’s huge negative swing); if he’s only the equal of Young in the field, that probably means that he has lost a leg or contracted ebola.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Feb 11, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions  

OK, point taken

He’s better than Young. A little better than Podsednik, as well. But having Rios next to him will be challenging.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 11, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Brian Sabean would beg to differ

He believes you put your best you’re best fielder in RF, don’t ask me, ask Brian Sabean

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Feb 8, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Haha. Brain Sabean's an idiot.

Or he just said that to make Barry Bonds happier.

by matty_b on Feb 10, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Gomez may have had an effect on Delmon and Cuddyer's numbers

and Span has had too small of sample in CF to deem him poor. It’s very unlikely for someone to be elite in left and bad in center. There should be a dropoff, but not as large as it’s been. You say he’s fast, and that’s true, but most (all?) center fielders are fast. I would predict him to be about average.

Delmon’s numbers will probably get better getting out of the dome, and possibly with not having Gomez around stealing balls he would have gotten to. Cuddyer’s numbers may have been hampered by the short porch in right, although i don’t know if MGL made adjustments for that.

Overall, I’d put us at about 20-30 runs below average. This is partially numbers based, partially my intuition, partially homerism. I don’t think you can reasonably go any higher than that. That seems like a lot, but a guy like Adam Dunn will put you in a hole that large all by himself.

Anyway, I think we’ll only be slightly below average overall defensively (it depends on how much Punto plays instead of Harris). I’d say about 10-15 runs overall.

With our offense (definitely a top 5 lineup) and pitching (above average, probably not top 5 though) this really isn’t a big deal. Our overall team is significantly better than the White Sox (5 wins or so). We certainly could have signed Juan Pierre, and had a good outfield defense, but I think I’d rather have our guys.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Feb 8, 2010 12:39 PM EST reply actions  

I thought this too

But Gomez started fewer than half the games in center last year.

One thing I think will help: The new stadium has excellent lighting. The Dome’s lighting for corner outfielders was brutal because it was built for football. Left fielders have always lost a lot of balls in the lights. Right fielders have lost some too, but the right field lights were higher than left field lights. But even if they tracked liners in the lights, they tended to take poor routes because the subtlety of the spin on the ball, which determine the ultimate flight of the ball, is harder to pick up with bad lighting.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Feb 8, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

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