Torii Hunter: Black Latin Players "Impostors"
He's a nice guy with a big smile, but Torii Hunter has a history of saying some incredibly dumb things to the press and the quotes from this article rank toward the top of the list.
4 months ago
Nick Nelson
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Geez Torii...
C’MON MAN!
From the only TRUE North division
by thewild_viking_twins on Mar 10, 2010 5:18 PM EST reply actions
Chemistry
Hunter has a number of dark-skinned Latin teammates. I’m curious to know how they’ll react to these quotes. Also curious to know whether Hunter will continue to be lauded as a clubhouse leader when he’s making statements like this that are at best distasteful and at worst flat-out insulting.
maybe ought to link to the actual story that the above article is refering to...
rather than a story about the story.
His actual point is a valid one, just not very eloquently stated.
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Torii just needs an editor. :-)
There is a serious discussion that could be had about the number of USBorn African-Americans in major league baseball. Following integration and throughout the 60s and 70s there was a sizeable number of players matching that demographic.
In the past 10-20 years, that number has dropped by quite a bit. Now, when someone just looks at the racial demographic then the drop in US-Born players will be masked by the influx in foreign-born “African-Americans”.
The concern over the drop in US-Born African-Americans is not necessarily a discrimination thing. Its more of a lament that the best US-Born African American kids aren’t as interested in playing baseball compared to two generations ago. Curt Flood, Vada Pinson and Frank Robinson all went to same HS in Oakland. Who has come out of that high school recently? If the Negro Leagues came back, would it have the talent it had in the 30s and 40s?
A lot of people would like to see more MLB ballplayers from this demographic. Torii just blurted out the wrong words. :-)
Boy is that charitable
I’m all for creative interpretation that takes the guys cleats out of his mouth and replaces them with silk. But at some point, a guy is judged on his actual words.
Lot’s of guys get fired for saying less overtly racist things.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I read the original article
and did not find it overtly racist, but then again, I also understand his point.
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 6:50 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it would be charitable to give him too much credit for the idea.
I thought Ozzie responded pretty well to that point.
He said (in his Ozzie way) that African-American kids have more choices in the sense that they can play basketball, or football, or what have you. Dominicans play baseball. So the demographic ratio is going to start moving.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Mar 10, 2010 6:34 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
+1
African-Americans are privileged compared to Dominicans. The absurdity of a rich black guy disparaging a Dominican because he’s not a “real blacks” is mind boggling. I’d like to see him go to Haiti and see how Caribbean African Americans live.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
lol
I dont think there are any Caribbean African American’s in Haiti….
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions
Yes there are
Haiti is a North American country
It is populated largely by ancestors of African slaves
It is in the Caribbean
People of African decent who call Haiti home are Caribbean African Americans, as distinguished from Southern African Americans or Midwestern African Americans.
We in the US think we have a monopoly on the word “American”. Everyone from the two American continents deserves to be called an American.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Versus Nelson Mandela
Who I once saw referred to as the first “African-American president of South Africa”.
I don't think he was disparaging them...
I think he was frustrated that the two groups get lumped into the same demographic.
Torii’s said some stupid things before about Mauer and Morneau which I’m not quick to forgive him for. But this I think was just blurting out the wrong word when told that Vladimir Guerrero and Willie Mays come from the same background. They don’t.
he certainly wasn't
I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 7:11 PM EST up reply actions
I understand it
But I see it from the other side. Tony Oliva was the victim of racism the likes of which Torii has never experienced. Was his racism somehow less valid because he came from Cuba?
I’m all for fighting ignorance about nationalities. But don’t claim that somehow US-born African Americans are the real ones and Caribbean-born African Americans are not. The ignorance he decries proves my point. They are both treated the same: With latent racism.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I don't think that is what he claimed
He wasn’t talking about “real” anything. He was in a roundtable talking about the lack of African Americans (or if you prefer, United States born black players) in baseball. Someone brought up a player from a Latin American community and Torii correctly (and inartfully) pointed out that recruiting from those communities is different than recruiting from inner cities in the United States. Each has its problems and issues, but they are undoubtedly different areas. To me, this was clear from reading the conversation that went down at the roundtable, but I just read Torii’s blog post and he said as much, too.
Also, I’m not sure that it is ignorant to use the phrase “African American” to describe United States born players (as opposed to Latin American born). It might be technically incorrect, but it is a pretty common usage.
OK, I give
I get the point. What he meant is correct. American-born players have a lot of other opportunities. Baseball isn’t even their first choice or their second. It’s a distant third.
I just think you can’t pretend that what you say doesn’t have consequences, even if it’s not what you meant.
And I didn’t say it was ignorant to refer to American-born black players as African American. That is the common usage.
I’ll stop now, before I create more pointless controversy.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
+1
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
by AdamOnFirst on Mar 10, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
I'll go out on a limb
Torii talks about this subject a lot. Isn’t his charity designed to get more inner city kids into baseball? I’ve heard him talk about the lack of African Americans in baseball several times, especially when talking about taking Span under his wings. I really think this just came out wrong. To me, it sounded like he was saying that Latin Americans are “imposters” in the sense that people don’t notice the lack of African Americans in baseball because they see many skin tones. I don’t read it as Torii saying Latin Americans are fake black or whatever, but that they are masking the fact that there are so few African Americans interested in playing baseball. He often talks about how baseball got him out of the gang scene (yeah, yeah, he really does talk about how hard his life was a lot, but it helps his point) and he thinks baseball could help others. He’s notorious for sticking his foot in his mouth, but he’s also notorious for donating time and money to his charity. I think his words were taken out of context. I’ll defend this one.
+1
Again, what he meant was clear to me from the original article and from knowing his positions and involvement with inner city little league.
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 6:56 PM EST up reply actions
HA!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"All morons hate it when you call them a moron." -Holden Caufield
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Mar 10, 2010 5:23 PM EST reply actions
This reminds me of the race wars in St. Cloud
Blacks against Somalians.
But in this case, Black Dominicans were slaves just like Torii’s ancestors.
The other thing that gets me is this guy has made $100 million in his career. At what point does the ’oppressed black man" schtick wear off? $200 million?
I guess he has to feed his family.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
+100 for the Latrell Spreewell reference
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
by AdamOnFirst on Mar 10, 2010 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
To his credit...
He wrote about this event on his blog today.
by Twins Territory on Mar 10, 2010 6:25 PM EST reply actions
Thoughtful post by Torii
Definitely worth the read.
Ugh.
“A bag of chips”? Really? There’s really not any defense for this crap.
I thought Ozzie’s response was pretty good, though I imagine the article had to clean it up a bit.
http://www.realityfish.com
by Robin G on Mar 10, 2010 6:37 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Torii isn't wrong
He just was a little ineloquent. He’s right that for the most part, it’s cheaper to sign a bunch of latin american players to fill out your organization than it is to find U.S. players, and he’s not wrong that the issue isn’t seen as urgent, probably because there are so many Latin Americans playing.
The issue, however, is that it is very expensive to play baseball in the U.S. in such a way as to get attention from scouts. Most of the kids who are drafted high have spent years playing on travelling elite teams and the like. Colleges have limited scholarships for baseball, and there are comparatively few African Americans filling those slots.
by Eric in Madison on Mar 10, 2010 7:12 PM EST reply actions
Hunter is Wrong
Hunter sure ‘misspeaks’ a lot. I think it’s more a case of saying what he really thinks, and then backtracking later. Latin american signings have little to do with blacks in the US- in fact, they have a much greater effect on white players, since those are the majority of baseball players who are draft-eligible. Hunter’s real point is that baseball likes having black latin players, so as to look diverse, while avoiding American blacks who MLB is somehow scared of. Black players have made claims like this before (e.g., Sheffield). That’s why he used the word “impostor.”
It’s hardly news that Hunter likes to run his mouth and is not particularly brilliant. I’m not sure why anyone would feel motivated to rationalize this latest bit of genius.
+1
I’d try and make some great points, but cmathewson has pretty much said it all. If anything I think the lack of US born African Americans in baseball is due to the fact that they would much rather play basketball or football, not some underground plot to find a cheaper alternative. Hell maybe that is why whites are the minority in basketball, cause we’re to expensive and African Americans are the cheap commodity. I only jest!
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." ~Mickey Mantle
"The key to being a good manager is keeping the people who hate me away from those who are still undecided." ~Casey Stengel
by Michael in N.Cali on Mar 10, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions
Your jest
Your jest is a worthy thing to mention. Imagine if, oh, say, Michael Young came out and said this about black players, and called them impostors, and accused them of being cheap because they were poor. Imagine how ugly such comments would be viewed universally.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
by AdamOnFirst on Mar 10, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
Here's why I'd try to rationalize it.
Because he’s actually investing his time and money in improving circumstances in black communities. He sees the types of people he grew up with surrounded by bad choices, and he’s trying to give them a good choice in baseball. That doesn’t make what he said smart, but it gives him the benefit of the doubt.
Hunter’s charity work doesn’t have anything to do with his comments. If anything, it puts a questionable spin on the motivation behind his program.
by drivlikejehu on Mar 10, 2010 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
It's business.
Period. In my opinion it is not about race. It is economics. If it is cheaper to get a good player from Latin America than it is from here, then it shall be done. If a team thinks it’ll get more return on there dollar by wooing a Japanese player, then it too will be done. It’s why Torii make $100M, it’s why we discuss whether Nathan’s contract is insured, it’s why our payroll is now 10th with a new stadium, and why we have yet to re-sign our catcher.
I get what guiness is saying in that we need to see past his words and consider what was meant…we tend to overreact whenever a comment is seemingly racist…but money drives the bus and IMO it is money that is responsible for MLB’s demographics and race is just one of the many aspects that get secondary consideration.
by z-squad on Mar 10, 2010 9:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
You must be kidding. Do you think players like Santana, Ortiz, Reyes, Beltran, Vlad and a billion other guys are playing for chicken scraps? Hell, we just signed Sano for what a $3+Million bonus! How many US born black or white players in our minor league system also got a bonus like that? Gibson our #1 pick last year got what, $1.85 Million? How can you possible say it is cheaper?
"You don't realize how easy this game is until you get up in that broadcasting booth." ~Mickey Mantle
"The key to being a good manager is keeping the people who hate me away from those who are still undecided." ~Casey Stengel
by Michael in N.Cali on Mar 10, 2010 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not saying it IS cheaper
I’m saying that IF it is cheaper and the potential return is greater then that is the way it will go. Would teams pay MORE for a Dominican player than a U.S. American player (black or white) if he were LESS likely to generate a return? Of course not. With every signing bonus or contract there is an economic risk/reward. Black or white, Latin or Japanese, decisions are based on possible revenue.
Tom Kelly said it himself just after Hrbek retired, “baseball has now officially become a business.”
by z-squad on Mar 10, 2010 10:49 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Santana signed for $10K
… but times have changed recently. Its sounds like 15-20 years ago you could load up on dozens of cheap latin-american teenagers, then them to instructional camps and pick out the best and brightest for placement in the rookie leagues.
Everything I’m reading today makes it sound like the scouting process is much more organized and competitve these days, that bidding wars for guys like Sano are becoming increasingly common. If that’s the case, I can imagine there being a Latin-American draft at some point.
Yes, the draft is coming in 2010 I believe
That was determined at the Winter Meetings, if I’m not mistaken. At least Selig said it was a done deal. I didn’t follow up to make sure it happened. So the Twins going all out last year will be an aberration because they’ll have to draft these kids next year. It reminds me of the draft-and-follow rules. The year before they changed the rule, the Twins signed like 5 draft-and-follow guys.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
This is racism
Lets have somebody call this what it is: racism.
And it isn’t the first time Hunter has run his ridiculous mouth off. This kind of thing is why I wasn’t all that sad to see him and his big WAR go. I got sick of all the doublespeak mixed through big smiles. Hopefully everybody else is starting to figure out that he’s a total cad like some of us figured out his last couple years with the Twins.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
agreed
Thank goodness Guiness Junky can tell what Torii really meant while the rest of us fools can only rely on what Torii actually said.
For this fool, it is clear that Torii had good intentions, all the while harboring bad ones.
Torii Hunter: Black Latino players aren’t black, they’re ‘impostors’
“What troubles me most was the word “impostors” appearing in reference to Latin American players not being black players. It was the wrong word choice, and it definitely doesn’t accurately reflect how I feel and who I am," Hunter posted on his Angels-sponsored blog Wednesday afternoon
.
by montanatwinsfan on Mar 10, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions
at least you know what you are
that is the first step
by guinness junky on Mar 10, 2010 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
ha, ha,
and now we know who you are.
by montanatwinsfan on Mar 11, 2010 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
+1
I have lost most to all respect for this guy. He is an overpaid buffoon….
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
by 33MorneauMVP on Mar 10, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just glad he doesn't get a free pass like he did when Lavell followed him around
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
+1
We should call a spade a spade, and call racism what it is.
Even if Torii had a legitimate point he was trying to make (and that’s a big if), his point gets completely lost in his racist sentiment.
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Mar 11, 2010 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
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