More Best Twins of All Time

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 1:04 PM EST Comment 52 comments

Following up on DJL44’s recent post on the best Twins of all time, I thought I’d share a similar list I’d created taking a similar, but slightly different approach. Rankings are after the jump.

I was inspired by Jay Jaffe’s fabulous JAWS system (JAWS=Jaffe WArp Score, here’s his latest article: http://baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10070), which evaluates ballplayers’ hall-of-fame merits by adding the sum of their career WARP score to their WARP score for their 7 peak years. This way a player gets points for having a long, productive career, but then effectively gets double points for their most dominant years. I suppose it’s a touch arbitrary, but at the same time there is just something that feels exactly right about it to me. Anyone familiar with the ins and outs of Bert Blyleven’s hall-of-fame case has probably run into JAWS.

So I created a similar measure for the best Twins of all time. Of course, players only get credit for production they contributed as Twins. (And no, I’m sorry, time as a Washington Senator doesn’t count.) For scoring, I used the average of WAR and WARP3 as a rough way of balancing out those systems’ respective strengths and weaknesses. And since careers with a single team are generally shorter than baseball careers in general, I used a peak of 5 years instead of 7. Again, sort of arbitrary, but it feels about right to me.

Oh, and I called it TWRPS, for Twins WAR/WARP Score. (I know, I should have come up with some way to call it GRTTY or SCRPY or PUNTO or something.)

Like JAWS, I thought TWRPS would be a nice way to evaluate Twins worthy of the Twins Hall of Fame. I’d be interested to hear what the TwinkieTowners think about the most over- and under-appreciated Twins. Also fun is to look at who on the current Twins has a shot at the Twins Hall or of surpassing some of the best Twins of all time. (Mauer vs. Carew? Morneau vs. Hrbek?)

It was all very educational for me. (Really, Roy Smalley was good?) I followed the Twins 87 and 91 World Series teams as a young, somewhat fickle Twins fan, but otherwise didn’t tune in for much Twins action until the mid 00s. I’d be curious to know what some of the Twins old-timers feel about the rankings.

In addition to the total TWRPS score, I added columns for years as a Twin, major awards the players accumulated as a Twin, hall-of-fame status, and separate columns for career and peak WAR/WARP3 score.

1st Yr	Yrs	Player	HOF?	MVPs/CY/ROOKIE	All Star	TWRPS	Rank	Career	Rank	Peak	Rank
1967	12	Rod Carew	MLB, Twins	ROY, MVP	12	96.8	1	59.6	1	37.2	1
1970	11	Bert Blyleven	Twins		1	80.2	2	47.1	3	33.2	2
1961	14	Harmon Killebrew	MLB, Twins	MVP	11	80.0	3	50.8	2	29.2	6
1984	12	Kirby Puckett	MLB, Twins	ALCSMVP,ASMVP	10	71.0	4	44.1	4	26.9	8
1962	15	Tony Oliva	Twins	ROY	8	67.1	5	39.4	5	27.7	7
2004	6	Joe Mauer		MVP	3	66.2	6	33.8	9	32.4	3
1991	7	Chuck Knoblauch		ROY	4	65.4	7	35.0	8	30.4	4
1995	12	Brad Radke	Twins		1	63.8	8	39.1	6	24.7	10
2000	8	Johan Santana		CY, CY	3	62.5	9	32.7	10	29.8	5
1981	13	Kent Hrbek	Twins		1	57.3	10	37.0	7	20.3	17
1961	13	Jim Kaat	Twins		2	52.0	11	31.3	11	20.7	15
1982	7	Frank Viola	Twins	CY, WSMVP	1	51.1	12	26.3	14	24.8	9
1961	10	Bob Allison	Twins		2	50.9	13	27.6	12	23.4	12
2004	6	Joe Nathan			4	50.9	14	27.0	13	23.9	11
1972	8	Dave Goltz				45.6	15	24.3	17	21.3	13
1963	10	Jim Perry		CY	2	43.5	16	24.4	16	19.2	18
1998	7	Corey Koskie				42.5	17	21.7	18	20.8	14
1981	9	Gary Gaetti	Twins	ALCSMVP	2	42.4	18	24.5	15	17.9	21
1990	5	Shane Mack				40.9	19	20.5	21	20.5	16
1976	8	Roy Smalley			1	38.7	20	20.6	20	18.1	20
1961	6	Camilo Pascual			4	36.6	21	17.5	25	19.1	19
1989	7	Kevin Tapani				35.7	22	18.8	22	16.9	22
1989	11	Rick Aguilera	Twins		3	34.4	23	21.2	19	13.2	31
1973	5	Larry Hisle			1	33.6	24	16.8	26	16.8	23
1965	8	Cesar Tovar				33.3	25	17.8	24	15.5	27
1961	7	Earl Battey	Twins		5	32.7	26	16.6	27	16.2	24
1997	10	Torii Hunter			2	32.5	27	17.9	23	14.6	28
2003	7	Justin Morneau		MVP	3	32.2	28	16.2	28	16.1	25
1961	7	Zoilo Versalles	Twins	MVP	2	31.2	29	15.3	29	15.9	26
1971	6	Steve Braun				27.4	30	14.0	30	13.4	29
1990	6	Scott Erickson				26.7	31	13.4	31	13.3	30
1969	3	Leo Cardenas			1	26.2	32	13.1	32	13.1	32
1963	4	Jimmie Hall			2	25.4	33	12.7	34	12.7	33
1988	6	Brian Harper				24.8	34	12.9	33	11.9	37
1983	9	Greg Gagne	Twins			24.5	35	11.9	35	12.7	34
1976	6	Butch Wynegar			2	24.0	36	11.8	36	12.2	35
1979	3	Jerry Koosman				22.5	37	11.3	38	11.3	39
1982	6	Tom Brunansky			1	22.5	37	10.9	41	11.7	38
1967	3	Dean Chance			1	22.3	39	11.2	40	11.2	40
1998	6	Eric Milton			1	22.1	40	11.3	38	10.9	41
1964	7	Dave Boswell				21.9	41	9.9	46	12.1	36
1993	12	Eddie Guardado			2	21.2	42	11.4	37	9.8	50
1964	6	Al Worthington				20.9	43	10.4	42	10.6	42
1979	6	John Castino		ROY		20.2	44	10.1	43	10.1	44
1975	3	Lyman Bostock				19.9	45	10.0	44	10.0	47
1980	2	Doug Corbett			1	19.8	46	9.9	45	9.9	48
1978	3	Mike Marshall				19.5	47	9.6	50	10.0	46
1977	4	Geoff Zahn				19.5	48	9.8	47	9.8	50
1965	4	Jim Merritt				19.4	49	9.7	48	9.7	52
1973	4	Bill Campbell				19.3	50	9.7	49	9.7	53
2005	5	Scott Baker				18.6	51	8.8	56	9.9	49
1986	6	Allan Anderson				18.6	52	9.0	54	9.6	54
1995	7	Matt Lawton			1	18.3	53	9.2	51	9.1	56
1999	7	Jacque Jones				18.3	53	9.0	53	9.3	55
2001	9	Michael Cuddyer				18.1	55	9.1	52	9.0	57
1999	6	Joe Mays			1	18.0	56	7.8	59	10.2	43
1998	5	A.J. Pierzynski			1	17.7	57	8.8	55	8.9	59
1995	9	LaTroy Hawkins				16.8	58	6.7	69	10.1	45
2004	4	Jason Bartlett				16.3	59	8.1	57	8.3	62
1995	5	Marty Cordova		ROY		16.0	60	7.6	60	8.4	61
1992	9	Mike Trombley				16.0	60	7.9	58	8.1	63
2004	4	Carlos Silva				16.0	62	7.1	65	8.9	58
1961	8	Rich Rollins			2	16.0	62	7.5	61	8.5	60
2001	6	Juan Rincon				14.9	64	7.0	66	7.9	64
2008	2	Denard Span				14.8	65	7.4	62	7.4	69
1971	4	Eric Soderholm				14.8	66	7.3	63	7.5	66
1979	4	Gary Ward			1	14.7	67	7.2	64	7.5	67
1961	3	Jack Kralick				14.4	68	7.0	67	7.4	68
1961	6	Don Mincher				14.2	69	7.0	67	7.3	72
1980	5	Albert Williams				14.1	70	6.7	71	7.4	70
1978	5	Roger Erickson				13.9	71	6.6	73	7.3	71
2004	6	Nick Punto				13.4	72	6.3	74	7.2	73
1987	4	Juan Berenguer				13.4	73	6.7	70	6.7	76
1991	2	Chili Davis				13.2	74	6.6	72	6.6	80
1968	4	Ron Perranoski				13.1	75	5.4	84	7.8	65
2004	5	Matt Guerrier				12.8	76	6.1	75	6.7	77
1966	7	George Mitterwald				12.6	77	5.7	82	6.9	74
1993	5	Rich Becker				12.5	78	5.8	79	6.7	78
1968	4	Tom Hall				12.3	79	6.0	76	6.3	83
2004	5	Jason Kubel				12.2	80	5.6	83	6.7	78
2004	6	Jesse Crain				12.1	81	5.7	81	6.4	81
1984	4	Mike Smithson				11.9	82	5.8	79	6.1	85
1987	3	Jeff Reardon			1	11.7	83	5.9	77	5.9	87
1997	2	Bob Tewksbury				11.7	83	5.9	77	5.9	87
1999	7	J.C. Romero				11.3	85	5.1	87	6.3	83
1989	7	Mark Guthrie				10.8	86	5.3	86	5.6	93
1983	3	Tim Teufel				10.7	87	5.3	85	5.4	95
1962	4	Dick Stigman				10.6	88	5.1	87	5.5	94
2001	6	Kyle Lohse				10.5	89	4.7	93	5.9	87
1998	6	Doug Mientkiewicz				10.4	91	4.1	104	6.3	82
1973	4	Joe Decker				10.4	92	4.4	98	6.0	86
1999	6	Cristian Guzman			1	10.1	93	3.3	120	6.8	75
1991	4	Carl Willis				10.1	94	4.8	91	5.3	96
1976	5	Mike Cubbage				10.1	94	4.4	95	5.7	90
1992	1	John Smiley				9.6	97	4.8	90	4.8	104
2005	4	Francisco Liriano			1	9.6	98	4.5	94	5.1	100
1974	5	Tom Johnson				9.4	99	4.2	102	5.2	99
1993	6	Pat Meares				9.3	100	3.7	111	5.7	90
1969	5	Dick Woodson				9.1	101	4.4	95	4.7	107
1974	4	Tom Burgmeier				9.0	102	4.4	98	4.7	108
1975	4	Dan Ford				9.0	102	4.3	100	4.7	105
2007	3	Nick Blackburn				8.9	104	4.2	103	4.7	105
1997	2	Greg Swindell				8.8	105	4.4	97	4.4	111
1990	6	Scott Leius				8.8	106	4.3	101	4.5	110
1992	5	Jeff Reboulet				8.3	107	3.7	110	4.6	109
1971	5	Ray Corbin				8.1	108	3.2	125	5.0	102
2006	3	Dennys Reyes				7.9	109	4.0	105	4.0	119
1986	3	Keith Atherton				7.8	110	3.9	106	3.9	123
1991	1	Jack Morris		WS MVP	1	7.8	110	3.9	106	3.9	123
1996	3	Paul Molitor	MLB			7.8	112	3.8	109	4.0	117
2008	2	Carlos Gomez				7.7	113	3.9	108	3.9	126
1982	5	Pete Filson				7.6	114	3.6	115	4.1	116
2005	5	Lew Ford				7.6	114	3.3	120	4.3	112
2005	5	Mike Redmond				7.6	116	3.4	118	4.2	113
1982	5	Ron Davis				7.6	117	2.5	146	5.1	101
1991	3	Mike Pagliarulo				7.5	118	3.5	117	4.0	117
1999	4	Bob Wells				7.4	119	3.4	118	4.0	119
1983	3	Ken Schrom				7.3	120	3.6	114	3.7	129
1976	7	Pete Redfern				7.3	121	2.1	159	5.3	96
2007	3	Kevin Slowey				7.3	121	3.7	111	3.7	131
1986	5	Roy Smith				7.3	123	3.6	115	3.7	129
1961	4	Lenny Green				7.3	124	3.1	128	4.2	114
1961	1	Pedro Ramos				7.2	125	3.6	113	3.6	133
1978	4	Darrell Jackson				7.2	125	3.3	120	3.9	123
1981	6	Mickey Hatcher				7.1	127	1.8	167	5.3	96
1973	6	Craig Kusick				7.0	128	3.0	132	4.1	115
1987	5	Dan Gladden				7.0	129	3.2	125	3.8	127
1999	3	Mark Redman				6.7	130	3.2	124	3.5	134
2006	3	Pat Neshek				6.6	131	3.3	120	3.3	138
1962	5	Bernie Allen				6.4	132	3.1	130	3.4	137
1964	3	Johnny Klippstein				6.3	133	3.2	125	3.2	139
1998	4	Hector Carrasco				6.1	134	3.1	129	3.1	143
1997	3	Terry Steinbach				6.1	135	3.1	130	3.1	144
1982	11	Randy Bush				6.1	136	2.1	155	4.0	119
1963	2	Bill Dailey				6.1	136	2.3	149	3.8	128
1984	3	John Butcher				6.0	138	2.9	133	3.1	142
2001	3	Bobby Kielty				5.7	139	2.8	136	3.0	146
1961	4	Lee Stange				5.7	140	2.3	150	3.4	136
2001	3	Rick Reed				5.6	141	2.7	137	2.9	149
2006	2	Luis Castillo				5.6	142	2.8	134	2.8	153
1998	1	Mike Morgan				5.6	142	2.8	134	2.8	153
1982	3	Bobby Castillo				9.7	96	4.9	89	4.9	103
1964	4	Mudcat Grant			1	10.4	90	4.8	91	5.6	92
1973	2	Bill Hands				5.4	144	2.7	137	2.7	159
1981	9	Tim Laudner			1	5.4	144	1.8	168	3.6	132
1964	9	Rich Reese				5.4	146	1.5	188	4.0	122
1968	2	Bob Miller				5.2	147	2.6	139	2.6	162
1996	1	Dave Hollins				5.2	147	2.6	139	2.6	162
1993	2	Jim Deshaies				5.2	149	2.1	158	3.1	140
1989	3	Gary Wayne				5.1	150	2.6	141	2.6	166
1987	7	Gene Larkin				5.1	151	2.1	159	3.1	144
2001	3	Tom Prince				5.0	152	2.5	142	2.5	168
1985	2	Mark Salas				5.0	152	2.5	142	2.5	168
2008	2	Jose Mijares				5.0	152	2.5	142	2.5	168
1972	7	Glenn Borgmann				5.0	156	2.3	150	2.7	159
1996	5	Todd Walker				4.9	157	2.1	159	2.9	151
1990	2	Terry Leach				4.9	157	2.5	147	2.5	172
2003	4	Shannon Stewart				4.9	159	2.4	148	2.6	167
1995	4	Frankie Rodriguez				4.8	160	2.2	154	2.7	161
1997	6	David Ortiz				4.7	161	2.1	155	2.6	162
1977	6	Rob Wilfong				4.6	162	1.2	197	3.5	135
2001	1	Tony Fiore				4.4	163	2.2	152	2.2	179
1991	2	Tom Edens				4.4	163	2.2	152	2.2	179
1995	6	Ron Coomer			1	4.4	165	1.5	187	2.9	149
1970	2	Stan Williams				4.3	166	1.9	166	2.5	172
1981	5	Dave Engle			1	4.3	167	1.9	165	2.4	174
1986	1	Neal Heaton				4.2	168	2.1	155	2.1	184
1991	3	Willie Banks				4.2	169	1.6	175	2.6	165
1980	3	Fernando Arroyo				4.2	170	2.1	159	2.1	184
1973	4	Vic Albury				4.2	170	2.0	163	2.2	179
1972	4	Bobby Darwin				4.1	172	1.3	194	2.8	153
1970	7	Steve Brye				4.0	173	1.3	194	2.8	156
1977	2	Gary Serum				3.9	174	2.0	163	2.0	190
1990	5	Larry Casian				3.9	175	1.6	172	2.3	176
1983	3	Rick Lysander				3.9	176	1.7	170	2.2	183
1978	3	Bombo Rivera				3.8	177	1.6	179	2.3	176
1985	3	Mark Portugal				3.8	178	1.5	183	2.3	175
1974	4	Jim Hughes				3.8	178	0.7	231	3.1	140
1995	3	Rich Robertson				3.7	180	1.6	179	2.1	188
1985	4	Steve Lombardozzi				3.6	181	1.5	182	2.1	184
2006	4	Glen Perkins				3.6	182	1.6	172	2.0	192
1981	3	Brad Havens				3.6	182	0.6	237	3.0	146
2001	2	Dustan Mohr				3.5	184	1.6	177	1.9	193
2005	3	Jason Tyner				3.4	185	1.7	169	1.7	197
2003	1	Kenny Rogers				3.4	186	1.7	170	1.7	201
1990	6	Pedro Munoz				3.3	187	0.3	265	3.0	146
1970	7	Danny Thompson				3.3	188	0.4	262	2.9	151
1996	6	Travis Miller				3.3	188	0.5	244	2.8	156
1994	2	Alex Cole				3.2	190	1.6	172	1.6	202
1996	2	Greg Myers				3.2	191	1.6	175	1.6	203
2009	1	Joe Crede				3.1	192	1.6	177	1.6	205
1970	1	Luis Tiant				3.1	193	1.6	179	1.6	208
1983	3	Len Whitehouse				3.1	194	1.4	190	1.7	197
2009	1	Brian Duensing				3.0	195	1.5	183	1.5	209
1990	2	Junior Ortiz				3.0	195	1.5	183	1.5	209
1975	1	Johnny Briggs				2.9	197	1.5	186	1.5	212
1978	5	Jose Morales				2.8	198	1.0	207	1.9	194
2007	5	Jose Morales				2.8	198	1.0	207	1.9	194
1990	1	John Candelaria				2.8	200	1.4	189	1.4	218
1993	5	Scott Stahoviak				2.8	200	0.9	218	2.0	190

Poll

Who's the most underappreciated Twin of all time?

Bert Blyleven

119 votes

Chuck Knoblauch

44 votes

Joe Nathan

30 votes

Dave Goltz

16 votes

Jim Perry

21 votes

Corey Koskie

59 votes

Shane Mack

59 votes

Roy Smalley

18 votes

Nick Punto

54 votes

420 votes | Poll has closed

1 recs | Comment 52 comments |

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Comments

Jose Morales

had his first cup of tea in 2007, yet still managed to accrue 5 years of service too the twins? what kind of twisted magical time machine chicanery are the twins playing with? are they trying to implode the universe by causing a quantum paradox?

Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?

by the Real Thor on Mar 2, 2010 3:01 PM EST reply actions

I think the service time for the two Jose Morales' is being summed.

Three for one and two for the other.

They shouldn’t be the same. The older one has 750+ PA while the current one has just 137. No way they are both 2.8. Looks like a bug.

by DavidRF on Mar 2, 2010 3:11 PM EST up reply actions

I think that must be right.

Ignore anything this says about Jose Moraleseses.

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions

Nice

I especially appreciate the thoroughness – it is a wonderfully irrelevant thing to know that Alex Cole was (by one measure) the 190th-most-deserving Twins Hall of Famer of all time.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Mar 2, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions

I thought I was being restrained.

I could have posted all 658 Twins ever. But I thought it was a bit cruel, e.g., to point out that a certain manager for a certain Philladelphia team is the 2nd-worst Twin of all time.

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 5:43 PM EST up reply actions

Nick Punto

is 8 slots ahead of Jason Kubel, in essentially the same amount of service. Something is wrong with that.

by montanatwinsfan on Mar 2, 2010 3:51 PM EST reply actions

agreed

There needs to be a way of factoring in dirt percentage of uniforms. He should be waaaayyyy higher on than Kubel on this list.

MPR, Lefsa, 3M, Sun Country Airlines, Grumpy Old Men movies, Joe Mauer. What a blessed state!

by By Allen's Mullet on Mar 2, 2010 4:16 PM EST up reply actions

I spit out my sunkist

When I saw punto was ahead of the likes of kubel, guerrier, berengar, guzman, and mien—— Aww screw it, you know who im talkin bout. Unreal that punto is the 72 greatest Twin ever. . .

I love Twins Baseball and Minnesota Vikings Football.

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Mar 2, 2010 4:20 PM EST up reply actions

I know some would argue otherwise,

but I actually didn’t think it was appropriate to artificially inflate Punto’s score to account for his limitless intangibles.

Obviously Punto is getting credit for defense and putting up what offense he’s put up at low-offense positions while Kubel gets penalized for the opposite. If you’re curious, here’s how it shakes out:

Punto
2006: 3.2
2008: 2.1
2009: .7
2004: .5
2005: .4
2007: -.7

Kubel
2009: 3.4
2008: 1.9
2007: .7
2004: -.1
2006: -1.3

That’s by WAR only. (By the way, for people who would have a negative number in their “peak years”, like Kubel, I don’t double-count the negative number. They just get their positive-value years counted in the peak.)

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions

Poor Ron Coomer,

Who knew he was THAT ineffective?

by montanatwinsfan on Mar 2, 2010 3:54 PM EST reply actions

About the poll

Bert will always be the most under-appreciated Twin until he gets his number retired. I always thought he belonged on the banner in the upper deck of the Dome with Hrbek, Oliva, Kirby, Killer and Carew.

by ckb on Mar 2, 2010 4:43 PM EST reply actions

+1

I hadn’t really thought about number retirement versus being in the Twins hall. But you’re totally right. Also, Bert had to wait 2 years to make the Twins hall. He should have been a “first-ballot” Twins HOFer.

by Luke in MN on Mar 3, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions

He's arguably the 2nd best Twin ever, right?

He has to have his number retired.

by ckb on Mar 3, 2010 12:49 AM EST up reply actions

If you want your number retired

Don’t flip the fans the bird

by DJL44 on Mar 3, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions

Yep, his image is not exactly like Harmon's

Also, unlike the guys on that board, Blyleven didn’t play most of his career in a Twins uniform. Now, the Twins traded him twice, but he only played nine+ out of 20 years with the Twins. If he gets into the Hall, he’d wear a Twins cap. Like Carew, he’d get his number retired at that point.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 3, 2010 10:01 AM EST up reply actions

yeah,

I think there is a certain played-almost-all-of-your-career-with-the-Twins factor that probably rightfully goes into this stuff. That probably hurts Knoblauch too.

But does it make sense for the Twins to wait for the BWAA to figure out that Bert’s a HOFer before they retire his number?

As for personality issues, he’s probably better liked than most Twins would be if we’d been given equal doses of their personalities through the broadcast booth. I mean, he was a pitcher—he’s supposed to be sort of a jerk.

by Luke in MN on Mar 3, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions

He is a jerk

That’s his whole persona. It’s supposed to be funny. I suppose it is for a while.

No I didn’t mean the broadcast booth. He was outspoken and vulgar as a player.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 3, 2010 3:24 PM EST up reply actions

Google News Archive

Wow. With the google news archive, you can read some pretty fascinating comtemporary accounts. What a resource.

Bert was indeed quite a moody guy in his early to mid career. He flipped off the fans the game before he was traded to the Rangers. Twins fans taunted him with choruses of “Bye, Bye, Bertie”. Asked about the gesture, Blyleven said “I couldn’t care less about the fans. I’ll flip them again…. They think I’m greedy. Maybe I should flip them every game and that would bring more fans to the park.”

Then in May of 1980, he took left the Pirates team in a huff, threatening to retire, because he disagreed with the way the manager was using him. He said being pulled too early in the game “took a lot of the competitiveness away from me”. Then later he says the following “I felt I had to speak up. If I didn’t, maybe 20 years from now, I’d be wishing that I had spoken up. Maybe 20 years from now I’ll wish I hadn’t spoken up.” Funny reading that quote 30 years into the future. :-)

by DavidRF on Mar 3, 2010 4:11 PM EST up reply actions

Interesting. And calling Twins owner Calvin Griffith a "fat bleep" was a touch crass

Not sure if that’s the AP doing the editting there or if that was actually Bert’s quote.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ba0yAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uuoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=870,179655&dq=bert+blyleven+gave+fans+the+finger&hl=en

And I didn’t know Bert was traded for Roy Smalley! Wild.

by Luke in MN on Mar 3, 2010 9:12 PM EST up reply actions

The link I had called him a "fat censored"

Funny how it got cleaned up differently in different papers.

by DavidRF on Mar 3, 2010 11:40 PM EST up reply actions

I did like

that Radke was ahead of Santana. But this is based on the fact that I liked Radke much more than Santana. (Radke got after it, Santana, at times, failed to battle his tail off)

I always loved that one.

by FoulJack on Mar 2, 2010 5:18 PM EST reply actions

Radke was an automaton

Santana has a heart of fire.

by montanatwinsfan on Mar 2, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions

What is a automaton?

And are they common in Montana?
Hi there.

I always loved that one.

by FoulJack on Mar 2, 2010 5:46 PM EST reply actions

A mechanical sheep

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 2, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions

sounds pretty useful around the house.

RonGarde: Target Field is going to be exactly like Progressive Field, except you'll have a chance to die of frostbite in the middle of July

by fischean on Mar 2, 2010 6:17 PM EST up reply actions

They'd be OK except for the grassfires, I'd imagine

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"All morons hate it when you call them a moron." -Holden Caufield

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Mar 3, 2010 1:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs

I always knew Morneau was more valuable Versalles!

And now this chart proves it! So to all you who didn’t care, I say to you “Now Who is Crazy!”
AHAHAHAHAHAHA!

On a calm and serious note good work Luke. This post is an interesting conversation starter.

"I couldn't do that. Could you do that? Why can they do it? Who are those guys?"

by maxisagod on Mar 2, 2010 5:54 PM EST reply actions

Thanks

And glad I could finally bring some closure to the long, bitter battle between the Morneautes and the Versallesians.

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions

Blyleven?

He’s his own publicity machine. I voted for Mack. He had a sew years when he was better than Puckett during Puckett’s best years.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 2, 2010 6:09 PM EST reply actions

He knitted some damn fine sweaters to boot!

by montanatwinsfan on Mar 2, 2010 6:54 PM EST up reply actions

Good call

Mack was incredibly underrated during his run in the early 90s. I think part of it was that he was good at drawing walks, which no one appreciated at the time (for the same reason, it surprised me to find out that Hrbek virtually always out-OPSed Puckett), and that Puckett was already the established star, so the guy with the slightly lower batting average and similar homers never really stood out.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Mar 3, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions

Al Worthington!

Came out of nowhere!

Visit www.TwinsCards.com and check out "rosters" to see my collection!

by rosterman on Mar 2, 2010 6:13 PM EST reply actions

I think you should add an "E" in the assessment...

JAWS is easy to remember. It would be TWERPS and easier to remember.

"I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. See, my mule don't like people laughing. He gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it . . ."

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Mar 2, 2010 9:46 PM EST reply actions

(E could be for evaluation?!?!?)

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Mar 2, 2010 9:46 PM EST up reply actions

A four or five years back a whole pack of rabid fans...

were saying that Nathan wasn’t really that important to the Twins success and that we should trade him for some young players. Frankly, I was flabbergasted at that suggestion. I’d say in the past half dozen years, you’d be hard-pressed to find someone as tough in tight situations (excluding the end of last year) as Nathan.

by Skippy tastes better than Jiff on Mar 2, 2010 9:51 PM EST reply actions

I agree that Nathan doesn't get enough love somehow

And I should point out that WARP rates closers much more highly than WAR (my guess is that WARP accounts for the high value of good pitching in save situations, etc., and WAR doesn’t), so Nathan and other relievers would be a few slots higher or lower if you were to just use one or the other.

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions

WAR does account or leverage

I’m guessing that WARP gives full value for the leverage, without taking into account chaining. Personally, I think WAR is closer to the truth.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Mar 3, 2010 1:05 AM EST up reply actions

some strange rankings

I’m sure the formula is well-thought-out, and the first 60 or so seem to make sense, but then it gets weird. Shannon Stewart 40 spots below “Pags” Pagliarulo? Kevin Slowey and Mark Redman below Ken Schrom (wow, I don’t remember him AT ALL)…Who is #70 Albert Williams??…And unloading Big Papi doesn’t seem so crazy when he shows up at #161.

by BomboR on Mar 2, 2010 10:27 PM EST reply actions

This is a counting stat - so you get more credit for more playing time

and he’s only counting years in a Twins uniform. Big Papi would be a lot higher if you counted his Red Sox numbers.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Mar 2, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions

Dude didn't get a lot of run support, but he wasn't bad

by Luke in MN on Mar 3, 2010 12:10 AM EST up reply actions

Man, we had some down years

When Coom-dog and Engle were our reps at the midsummer classic. Where’s Terry Felton on this list?

by z-squad on Mar 2, 2010 11:10 PM EST via mobile reply actions

Felton = #604

by Luke in MN on Mar 2, 2010 11:37 PM EST up reply actions

Thanks for putting that one to rest

We can stop calling Dan Gladden an “former Twins great”. He was barely a “former Twins good”.

Shows that Knoblauch, Perry and Pascual have been repeatedly overlooked for the Twins HoF. Smalley was snubbed to go to Gagne also.

by DJL44 on Mar 3, 2010 9:50 AM EST reply actions

They give the '87 guys tons of extra credit

The ‘87 team tends to be romanticized by the Twins organization, so I think they’re always going to end up disproportionately represented in the Twins Hall of Fame. The ’91 team might not get as much love, even though it was a better team, since there were so many guys on the team that were only around for a short time.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Mar 3, 2010 10:10 AM EST up reply actions

Dan Schatzader (sp?)

Tom Nieto
Steve Lambardozzi
Al Newman
Keith Atherton

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Mar 3, 2010 10:53 AM EST up reply actions

Don't forget...

Les Straker (it still seems weird that he was the #3 starter on a championship team)
Mark Davidson

Keith Atherton may have been the nerdiest-looking player in major league history.

Fun fact: When Doug Meintkiewicz homered in the 2002 ALDS, he became the player with the longest last name ever to homer in the postseason, breaking a record previously held by Lombardozzi.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Mar 3, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions

RANDY BUSH!!!!!!

:-)

by DavidRF on Mar 3, 2010 1:32 PM EST up reply actions

Best Twins

I’ve been doing my own rankings of the top300 Twins of all time using a variety of factors including some used here (WARP3, VORP, OPS+/ERA+, allstars, longevity, peak value, awards, postseason heroics, etc). Admittingly its a little touch/feel than the rankings here punishing players like Goltz and Braun who performed well but on mediocre teams and hence not many accolades. Stickandballguy posted my list last fall, here’s the link.

http://stickandballguy.com/blog/2009/10/19/top-300-twins/

by NateTubbsRules on Mar 3, 2010 11:41 AM EST reply actions

Sweet

Interesting to see another list, especially with all the data you’ve got on there. Amazing that Killebrew almost has as many HRs as the next 2 (hrbek and allison) combined! Are these just stats compiled with the Twins?

by Luke in MN on Mar 3, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions

Yes.

1961 Cutoff. Harmon misses out on an HR title, AS appearance and 84 Senator HR’s this way, but I guess you have to draw the line somewhere.

by DavidRF on Mar 3, 2010 3:06 PM EST up reply actions

Jeff Cirillo

I know there are a lot of Punto haters out there, but keeping JC off the list sac-religious (no pun intended)! Is it because he has risen above past and present Twins to control the hot corner? He who controls the hot corner, controls all! And that is none other than Jeff Cirillo. Did someone say 3B options!??!

LHRtoMSP

by LHRtoMSP on Mar 3, 2010 2:10 PM EST reply actions