The case for Rah Rah Ramos
This spring, the most intense competition is between back-up catching prospects Wilson Ramos and Drew Butera. Really, there is not much competition here. Butera handles a pitching staff well and has a strong arm, but he's weak on the actual catching side of the game (he has had a lot of borderline wild pitches/passed balls this spring). And his hitting is almost nonexistent.
Ramos, on the other hand, is strong at every facet of the game. He's drawn praise from the pitching staff and Joe Mauer for calling a good game and being a quick study. He has an arguably stronger arm than Mauer. He's solid on the catching aspect and the catch-and-tag play. And he has hit for average and power. Also, he's started most of the games--against the best pitchers--when Mauer hasn't, whereas Butera has been a late-inning substitute most of the spring.
If it were just a matter of spring training, it wouldn't be a question at all. Ramos has clearly won the job. But as we have seen year-in, year-out, spring training performance is but a small factor in who wins the job. Despite the organization's hype about competition for jobs, the organization must balance a lot of factors in making decisions like this. A guy can hit .500 while starting every game at short and making all but one play in the field, and still not make the team. What factors are in the way of Ramos's spring performance translating into a trip to Anaheim to start the season? I'll delve into them after the break.
Experience
Ramos is only 22 and has played in 54 games above A ball. Butera is 26 and has played in 242 games above A ball.That is somewhat balanced by playing time in winter ball. Ramos was the starting catcher for Los Tigres d'Araguas the last two winters, where he was an all star in 08/09 and the Caribbean Player of the Year in 09/10. That's around 100 games of AA-level ball. But he's young and inexperienced. Butera is clearly the more experienced player.
Seasoning
The feeling is Ramos could use more minor league seasoning. Though he has hit for average and power everywhere he's played, he is a notorious hacker. In his last healthy year at Fort Myers, he had a BB rate of 7.4% and a K rate fof 20.6%. Last year at New Britain, when he was injured for much of the season and unaccustomed to all the breaking balls, his BB rate was 2.8% and his K rate was 10.7 %. That shows some improvement in K/BB, but he's got work to do on that part of his game. The thinking is, he could use a year of hitting AAA pitching to learn how to lay off breaking balls out of the strike zone. If you don't give him those reps, he might never learn that crucial skill. It might be in Ramos's best interest as a player to file off as many rough edges as he can before it really counts.
Butera is what he is. He has shown very little improvement in any hitting skill in the minors (his OPS above A ball is below .600). So bringing him up now certainly won't stunt his development.
Service time
If you have a future star in your system, you don't want him sitting on the bench accumulating service time and increasing his price tag when it's his time to shine. At least that's conventional wisdom. Conventional wisdom says the most fiscally conservative position is to stash the player in the minors until he can start and make an impact. If you do this, the player can make an impact for three years before you have to start paying him what the market demands.
I have to say, I don't really buy conventional wisdom here for four reasons. First, if a player is sitting on the bench most of the time, he's not gaining a lot of value relative to the market. So when he is eligible for arbitration, he'll be pretty cheap. This is why Johan Santana complained about spending so much time in the bullpen prior to becoming eligible for arbitration because relievers are worth a lot less in arbitration than starters (excepting closers). There are lots of cases like this.
Second, if a player makes a huge impact for two years, the Twins way is to sign him to a long-term contract prior to arbitration. The Twins didn't save much by keeping Denard Span in the minors until June of 2008 because they signed him to a fair contract before he was ever eligible for arbitration. If the Twins want to keep a guy, they'll make a fair long-term offer and mitigate the risk of going to arbitration.
Third, there's no guarantee a guy will even stay with the club until his arbitration years. The Twins clearly held Jason Bartlett back to save a year of pre-arbitration eligibility. Before he even got to a hearing he was traded to the Rays. Ditto for Matt Garza. If the Twins don't want to keep a guy long term, they're almost as likely to trade him prior to arbitration than they are to take him to arbitration.
Fourth and most importantly, if you keep the best player in AAA to save money three years down the road, you will lose more games now. Losing is the surest way to keep fannies out of the seats. We saw this clearly with Bartlett/Castro. The Twins wondered why they couldn't draw fans in 2006 despite winning three division titles in four years. Well, it was pretty clear to a lot of fans that they were not fielding the best team they could. So why support that? If you really want to make money short and long term, put the best team on the field and worry about cost later. Holding your best talent back to save money three years down the road is penny wise and pound foolish.
Still, some argue that the Twins should follow conventional wisdom, even though the Twins have not done so under the Smith/Radcliff/Antony leadership.
Trade value
Even though the Twins are not likely to care much about service time for a bench player, they do care about trade value. Suppose Ramos goes to AAA and has the breakout year many people expect. He'll be worth a lot more on the trade market when he's a top 10 BA prospect than he is now, merely a top 50 BA prospect. Buy low and sell high. Because he was hurt for much of last year, his trade value is somewhat depressed. But after a good year, it will be at its peak. All the more so if he has no major league service time. The Twins may not care much about service time, but other teams do. They will pay more for a player with less service time, all things cosidered.
Let's face it, the Twins just signed Mauer to a contract that will keep him in a Twins uniform for the rest of his career. That leaves Ramos without a starting job in this organization at his natural position. Whether they trade him and get a front-line starter, or they move him to a new position, his value to the Twins is highest if he spends the 2010 season in Rochester, at least until it's time to set playoff rosters.
Of all those arguments, the last one is really the only one that makes much sense to me. If Ramos is the better player, I really don't care about "experience." And I don't think seasoning is all that important at this stage, especially considering that we are only really talking about a month or so of the season until Jose Morales can return from injury. Once Morales returns, niether Ramos nor Butera have a spot on this team. I'm even less convinced about the service time argument. No, the only one that makes sense is trade value. Andd that makes me kinda sad because I like Ramos a lot and I want to see him in a Twins uniform. But I can acknowledge that it is in the best interests of the Twins and for the player to try to maximize his trade value. Even if it is for just one month of the season.
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Honestly who cares
You are talking about someone who will get mabye 20 at bats before Morales returns. I’d probably let Ramos start in AAA so he can play every day, but I really don’t think it will be a big deal if he’s up there. He becomes a nice RH bench bat… That said, I think for his development, he’s probably best served playing in AAA. I doubt a month of major league service time will really hurt his career, but I don’t really see enough to merit starting his clock either.
by diehardtwinsfan on Mar 27, 2010 4:08 PM EDT reply actions
Assuming Morales is ready at the end of April, it's not that big a deal
But we don’t know when Morales will be ready. It might take a while since he hurt his shoulder in addition to his wrist.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Agreed.
Plus, says it was Ramos and he does extraordinarily well prior to Morales’ return. Would it be possible that the Twins might just want to stick with him if he provides a strong bat?
by Twins Territory on Mar 27, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Plus, suppose
Mauer goes down at some point in the season and needs to be DL’ed for a spell. Would you rather have had Ramos up here and getting seasoned, or would you rather bring him in cold from AAA?
This is a no-brainer. The Twins need to develop this kid, get him used being with the big club in case they really need him at some point.
by Old Twins Cap on Mar 28, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
When you talk about service time
you mentioned Santana,Span,Bartlett and Garza. They were all starters. Ramos may never be a starter with the Twins. Give him a year or two in the Minors and we’ll see what the teams needs are. Right now we don’t have many needs( 3B-Valencia and closer-Nathan ). I do think we need to save his service time, till we find a place for him. As far as trade value I don’t see how sitting on the bench makes him look more attractive then Mashing at AAA, I think his value drops in the Pro’s.
Bartlett spent the better part of a year on the bench. Santana spent three years in the bullpen.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Not when they were traded,
they were all starters. With Mauer, DH might be the only place Ramos startes. His value will be low as a back-up.
by b1 on Mar 27, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not like as soon as you become a back-up, your value plunges.
Other teams know how valuable Ramos is. He was the Carribean Player of the Year at age 22. He tore up spring training. A month as a back-up won’t change that. If he doesn’t start in Rochester this year, his value won’t go up. So I argue he should go down for most of the year. As some have said, it doesn’t matter much if he spends the first month with the big club, except it does strengthen the Twins’ bench.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Based on Gardy’s comments, it seems like Ramos is his option. This is a situation where the front office could intervene and say, “We think it’ll be a short period of time before Morales returns, lets not start Ramos’ service time.”
We’ll see. The Twins have a week to make the decision.
by Twins Territory on Mar 27, 2010 4:26 PM EDT reply actions
If I were Gardy
I’d want Ramos too, but the FO has to do whats right for Ramos and the Twins down the road.
by b1 on Mar 27, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems to be down to this competition.
The Twins have told Jacque Jones and Anthony Slama that they will play in the exhibition games next weekend but start at Triple-A. Meanwhile, Casilla has won the final bench spot as Matt Tolbert was optioned to Triple-A after the game.
Mike Maroth and Ben Revere were sent to minor league camp.
by Twins Territory on Mar 27, 2010 4:30 PM EDT reply actions
The final bullpen spot is either Neshek or Perkins I’d think. Although Neshek seemed more likely to start in extended spring training or the minors first, I’d think he makes the team (because of Nathan’s bullpen spot).
Does Perkins start on the DL, get optioned to Triple-A, or get traded?
by Twins Territory on Mar 27, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions
Take the best player
Which is clearly Ramos. If he looks good in his limited PT, it will only enhance his trade value, with only a small impact on his service time. He won’t get as many ABs, compared to Rochester, but he can still learn a lot.
How well does Ramos run?
By the time we know what we have in Ramos, we’ll have a really good idea what Delmon Young is. If Delmon can’t cut it ….
Ramos is not fast
But he’s faster than Butera
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Take Butera
I like Ramos a lot better, but I don’t really see the point. Yes, he can learn from Mauer, but he can also do that sometime later. I don’t think Morales is going to be out for more than a month. The backup catcher will get around 20 AB’s.
With our lineup on paper, we shouldn’t have to count on Ramos/Butera to win. They’ll be pieces, but very, very small ones. I think it makes more sense to take Butera, though Ramos is clearly better in probably every way. I don’t think it’s about who’s better though. I think it’s about who’s going to be the backup and sitting most of the time. If Mauer gets hurt, that’s when we really need Ramos…otherwise, I don’t think we do.
Baseball reminds us of all that once was good, and that could be again.-Terence Mann/James Earl Jones in FoD
Butera
I’d say take Butera, but he’s shown pretty clearly he’s not ready yet either. In fact, he may have shown he doesn’t belong on the 40 man roster. Grabbing a veteran off waivers is another option.
not sure why you said
he may have shown he doesn’t belong (spring numbers?) I would say there’s a couple others you could say that about.
by b1 on Mar 27, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
he said that because
Butera has shown an utter inability to hit the ball at all levels of the minor leagues. If he was our every day starter and played an entire season in the bigs he’d likely hit .175
It's the defense too
You need to be Henry Blanco to justify a bat as poor as Butera’s. He’s not that good defensively either. Bad hitting catchers are really easy to find, I doubt Butera would get snapped up by some other team.
Does anyone want Mauer's back-up to play?
I hope his back-up gets 0 atbats.
by b1 on Mar 28, 2010 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
CMath, you forgot...
the FA part of the equation. By delaying Ramos even 2 weeks, we can delay his FA a full year. That’s a big key to me, even more than the service time/arbitration issue.
For 2 weeks, we’re probably literally talking about something like 5-10 ab’s. For 2 months, we’re talking about something like 50 ab’s.
I LOVE Ramos, and think he deserves to be up baseball-wise, but in this case I go with the business side and delay him a little bit to save down the road.
He'll get optioned later
The only way it would backfire is if Ramos gets a year-ending injury in the first couple weeks forcing him to stay on the DL.
"2 weeks"
That 2 weeks in the minors can happen at any time. If he was up for a month to start the season and then got sent down to AAA when Morales came off the DL, it would still delay his free agency for a year.
by ajmargarine on Mar 27, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
also
afaik, the service time “issue” isn’t really an issue anyway. Unless Ramos spends the ENTIRE season at the MLB level (in which case we could lose him after “only” 6 years if he never goes to the minors again) or spends the entire season in the minors(in which case we can have this same exact talk in 365 days).
If we plan on having him split time between MLB and AAA this year, the whens of it don’t really matter as long as he spends 2 weeks+ at AAA at some point.
by ajmargarine on Mar 27, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
oh and one more thing (lol)
The “2 weeks” thing affects his free agency. We’d want him at AAA for probably at least 6 weeks to prevent him from becoming a Super 2 and be eligible for an extra year of arbitration.
by ajmargarine on Mar 27, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Well, the month, or whatever, of service time isn’t much, but it COULD come into play later depending on his future callups. Not a lot of guys actually end up joining the team for the first time out of camp, staying on roster all year, and ultimately having a clean, year by year service time clock. Most of ’em have a callup or three mixed in that can add up.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
People...
I know all that about the service time/FA. I guess what I should have added to my thoughts is this; I really, really believe that Ramos is going to be a special player. And I think once he’s up, it will be extremely difficult for them to send him back down, especially Gardy. I think he’ll do that well. So yes, I think once he’s up, he’s up for good. Hence that 2 weeks DOES matter, a great deal. IMO.
I don't think two weeks is that big a deal inteh scheme of things
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
The ONLY
The only reason I can build a decent argument for keeping up Ramos around is you want to give him a month taste of the show. You want him to get a few at bats against the best pitchers out there, to get to watch Joe Mauer on an everyday basis, to get a taste of the MLB life to keep him as hungry as ever. If you think this bit of experience before Morales comes back is valuable and worth giving him a month or so of service time, I can see why the Twins would do that.
Other than that, this is ridiculous. He’s never played above AA and hardly played there, it’s very few at bats, and it absolutely isn’t worth complicating his arbitration clock for very little in terms of contributions… especially when you think the start of the season has plenty of extra off days so Mauer won’t need as much backup. Just go with Butera, wait out Morales…
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
Morneau trade?
In the best of all possible worlds, it would be best for the Twins to have Mauer and Morneau in the lineup for foreseeable future, but how’s this for a possible scenario? (Delusion?) Assuming that Morneau performs at or near the level of the past, I would think that the Twins would have a hard time finding it financially feasible to sign him to an extension when his present contract runs out given what he could command on the open market. What if the Twins were trade him a couple of years before his contract is up, thereby avoiding being squeezed into something at the end as they were with Santana? I would think he would easily bring an established player to fill and immediate position and 2 or 3 legitimate prospects. Mauer would then move to 1st instead of 3rd or the outfield as has been bandied about. If, with his size and athleticism, he can be a gold-glove catcher, he could sure as hell, with a little work, be a gold-glove 1st baseman. Wilson by that time, would be ready to move in behind the plate with Morales as his back-up.
I highly doubt Morneau will ever leave the Twins organization.
And to trade him now would make very little sense.
RonGarde: Target Field is going to be exactly like Progressive Field, except you'll have a chance to die of frostbite in the middle of July
Never say never
Nobody said anything about trading him now. Much as I like Ramos, there’s no reason to believe he’s ready to step in full time now. A year or two down the road is another thing. And there’s absolutely no reason to believe that Morneau has the ties to the area that Mauer has. As a Vancouver boy, Seattle or elsewhere on the West Coast might look mighty good to him. Might be better to trade him at a time when his value is the highest than risk letting hiim go into the free market and get a virtually diddly squat like they did for Santana.
I agree with fischean
Morneau loves the organization, and he’s not going anywhere as long as mauer is here.
Terrible nickname
Please don’t let “rah rah” catch on. Somebody’s been listening to too much lady gaga.

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