Should Francisco Liriano Start the All-Star Game?
It's still a few weeks away, which means there is plenty of time for things to change, but right now Francisco Liriano is one of the better starters in the American League.
Has anyone else realized how good Liriano has been this season? What began as cautious optimism at the scouting reports early in the spring have slowly begun to materialize in the form of solid start after solid start. At the outset, it was early. Too early to judge on one, two, three or four starts.
And then he hit a hiccup--a couple of starts where he didn't quite look himself, and you couldn't be blamed if that dark place in the back of your mind thought maybe it was just another flash. But now, past the ides of June, Liriano has made 12 starts and it's time we can start making some relatively stable observations about him.
The Fastball - In terms of velocity, accuracy and the confidence he has in the pitch, the man is back on form. While it's not the 95 mph pitch is was in 2006 (as Aaron Gleeman recently pointed out, click through for a good read), his fastball is averaging 93.5 mph...which is nearly two miles per hour faster than it was in 2009. It also has more movement, as pitch fx data has fooled FanGraphs into thinking that Liriano actually throws a two-seam fastball. With more velocity, more movement and the ability to place the ball where he wants it, Lirirano's fastball is legitimately a plus pitch for him for the first time since 2006.
The Slider - Liriano now relies on his knee-breaking slider 33% of the time, which is a definitive rise over the last two seasons when he'd only throw it one out of every four pitches. Just like the fastball, there has been increased movement on this pitch which has resulted in a few more silly-looking swings and just a few more strikeouts. For the last two seasons it was easy to be of the mind that the slider was a pitch that Liriano would throw only when he needed to, which because of his inconsistent command meant that at times hitters knew to look for it. In fact, so fast this season Liriano's slider has been worth more runs above average than any other pitcher's slider in baseball. If you wanted to look per 100 pitches, Liriano's slider ranks third among pitchers who actually throw the pitch (behind Florida's Anibal Sanchez, and San Diego's Mat Latos).
Ground balls - Part of what made Liriano so dangerous and so successful four years ago was his ability to not just strike people out, but to induce ground balls. Since his Tommy John surgery his ground ball rates hovered just over 40%, but this season the rate has spiked back to near 50%. This is more than an incidental bump, and it's as close to the 55% rate he posted in his rookie season.
Control - We've already talked about Liriano's willingness to go with his fastball again this season and throw it with confidence. This has been an across-the-board improvement. Liriano still goes off the plate with regularity, but he's once again baiting hitters with his stuff as they take cuts on more than 30% of his pitches outside of the strike zone. When he goes off the plate, he does so with a purpose, and less so because he's missing his spots. There is no greater gauge of a pitcher's control than his walk rates, and Liriano's are currently at a career-low 2.34 BB/9.
The Numbers
This is where it starts to get fun. Whenever you can compare one of your starters to the best of the rest and they can match up with them, you know you have something special. The Twins, obviously, haven't had a starter make a statement like that since Johan Santana commanded the mound in the Dome.
Let's do it, then. For the sake of convenience, we'll look at Liriano and then ten other guys that I think deserve consideration. I know, I know, I used the phrase "...guys I think..." so the list may not be completely objective, but I'm pretty sure I've been reasonably fair. Beyond the Boxscore discussed AL starting pitchers for the All-Star game in their own way, so be sure to check that out as well for a slightly different take.
| Pitcher | IP | FIP | xFIP | K/9 | BB/9 | HR/9 | WHIP |
| Felix Hernandez | 94.2 | 3.67 | 3.61 | 8.37 | 3.14 | 0.86 | 1.29 |
| CC Sabathia | 92.1 | 4.24 | 3.94 | 7.41 | 2.92 | 1.17 | 1.21 |
| Ricky Romero | 90.1 | 3.17 | 3.23 | 9.07 | 3.39 | 0.60 | 1.22 |
| Zack Greinke | 89.0 | 3.87 | 3.94 | 7.89 | 1.82 | 1.21 | 1.22 |
| Jered Weaver | 87.2 | 3.20 | 3.48 | 9.86 | 2.36 | 1.03 | 1.17 |
| Justin Verlander | 86.0 | 3.28 | 4.15 | 7.74 | 3.24 | 0.52 | 1.12 |
| James Shields | 85.0 | 3.89 | 3.39 | 8.68 | 2.01 | 1.38 | 1.41 |
| Jon Lester | 85.0 | 3.09 | 3.44 | 9.42 | 3.81 | 0.42 | 1.16 |
| Francisco Liriano | 80.2 | 2.11 | 2.95 | 9.71 | 2.34 | 0.22 | 1.20 |
| Phil Hughes | 75.1 | 2.90 | 3.70 | 8.84 | 2.63 | 0.60 | 1.13 |
| Cliff Lee | 68.2 | 1.93 | 3.02 | 7.86 | 0.52 | 0.26 | 0.93 |
There you have it. 11 of baseball's best and most effective pitchers in the American League. If you wanted to try and make a case for a guy like David Price, Colby Lewis or John Danks I wouldn't begrudge you that right, but overall this list is pretty representative of the best you'll find.
I've italicized the leader in each category. Our Liriano leads in xFIP and the guaranteed-to-regress HR/9, but he's very close to the lead in a number of other categories.
Recently, LEN III pointed out that Liriano has never pitched more than the 136.2 Major League innings he pitched last year in one season. It's a valid argument, particularly for those who would argue that All-Star games should host players who would put the best numbers up over an entire season and are expecting some regression from Liriano. Some regression is likely to come, if only in the area of home runs.
With that, I'll leave the discussion to you. Liriano has had a great start to 2010, but here's the question: does he deserve to start the 2010 All-Star game?
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I would think Cliff Lee would be the starter if it were today.
I think Liriano is going to have to outduel Jiminez to get into the conversation.
I would be fine with Lee.
Except he missed a month. That beyond the box score article just made me mad, they didn’t even include Liriano, not even over Javier Vazquez. I know they use their true talent garbage, but Liriano has simply been a better starter than anyone in the AL outside of Cliff Lee so far. If it’s anyone besides Lee or Liriano starting, I’m gonna be pissed.
I think Lee and Liriano are the two to consider.
Liriano has pitched more, but Lee has a longer resume and slightly better rate stats.
Interesting question that I think remains to be answered: between Lee and Liriano, who’s benefiting from the better pitcher’s park?
I would definitely say Lee.
Seattle is a dead zone, Target Field isn’t THAT bad. But regardless, they’re both benefiting from their home ballparks, as seen by their really low HR/9 rates. Liriano seems to be more dominant with the strikeouts, while Lee has the best command of anybody in the league.
Target Field
is a double’s haven. Safeco is nothing. You can’t pop many HRs out of it, or get many doubles or extra base hits of any kind. Target Field is the better field for hitters.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
Sample is still small
Twins and Opponents are scoring a combined:
8.67 R/G in 34 home games
8.57 R/G in 30 road games
Not even half a season yet. Most people use 3-year averages.
David Price not even on the top 11? No one looks at regular ERA anymore?
I understand that many of those advanced metrics might be more “projective” but run prevention is the name of the game. I’d vote Price for CYA if the season ended today.
That's a good point.
Although I’d lean on it more for Cy and MVP—where the question is what you actually produced in a given year—than for all-star, where the question to me is more: Who are the best players?
True... I posted that preference for position players
Give a little bit of weight to the previous season to eliminate the flashes in the pan.
For some reason, pitching feels different. Maybe I’m being inconsistent though. I could easily see dinging Price for being ho-hum last year.
If he keeps it up for the full year, then the end-of-the-year awards are 2010-only.
What's with Price?
Look at his numbers K numbers and Shields. It’s backwards!
by Milt on Tilt on Jun 16, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
By the way
Don’t get too caught up in the strikeouts statistic. Shields should not even be an all-star, much less start the game. His ERA is 4.55 (average at best), he’s given up 13 HRs, and he’s a .500 pitcher this year.
Greinke should not be an all-star either. Besides the 2-8 record (I know, I know . . . record for pitchers is overrated), his ERA is 3.94. Good ERA but not all-star worthy.
Which one?
Not that it matters. Neither one deserves to be on the All-star team.
Shields is not even the 2nd best pitcher on his own team. I’d take Price and Garza over him for sure and maybe even Niemann.
As for Greinke, he’s doing okay, but you have to be rational about how many SP’s are actually going to be on the All-star team. There will be six or seven at most. Here are all the SP’s I would put on the team before Greinke in no particular order:
Price
Pettite
Bucholz
Lee
Liriano
Garza
Romero
Hughes
Lester
Danks
Weaver
Marcum
Verlander
Hernandez
Burnett (A.J. not Alex)
Pavano
Need I go on?
And yes, Carl Pavano has very similar numbers as Greinke aside from the K’s.
Yeah, you could pick most of those guys over Greinke.
But this is the point every year. There are always deserving guys who get left off of rosters and lists. Just because you prefer this list over Greinke, that doesn’t mean he shouldn’t be part of the conversation. He’s having another good year. And with the exception of Liriano, I’d trade any of our starters for him.
I would take him in a heartbeat over any of our starters besides Liriano
And even though I think he will be an all-star in the future, I don’t think he is nearly as deserving as numerous other starting pitchers this year.
KC does need to have someone on the team though
Who else from their team would you take instead? Guillen maybe?
+1
I went on this rant last year where I ripped the notion of dismissing the ERA stat in favor of stats like FIP and xFIP. I have a lot of respect for most of the writers on this website (including Jesse), but to not even include the ERA’s of the ten pitchers listed is a big mistake in my opinion. For that reason, I agree that Price should be the starter.
You think Price should be the starter because I didn't include it?
Or you think he should be the starter based on ERA?
Because there are a lot of deserving guys out there, and while Price is probably in the top tier of pitchers, he’s not the best starter on his own team this season.
Actually I take that back.
Price has been a wicked good pitcher this year too in his own right. I just like Shields, because I think he’s been pitching better than his numbers, and Price a bit worse.
Not because you didn't include it
Even I’m not that irrational and childish, but apparently I didn’t proofread that sentence very well :)
Price’s ERA and record are outstanding, and he is the ace for arguably the best team in baseball. I just don’t understand why you include James Shields on your list but not Price or Garza. It’s one thing to say Shields is an underrated pitcher; it’s another to say he is better (or having a better year) than Price or Garza (which you basically did by not including them on your list).
+1
What about Wins? ERA and Wins should be included on here. Even if they don’t necessarily prove he’s the better pitcher, wins and losses decide Cy Young’s and All-Stars.
No, but it's not a worthless statistic either
I don’t think wins should be a major factor in determining Cy Youngs and All Stars, but they are still worth something. The idea is to win, after all, which is another reason I have difficulty with Zack Greinke being an all-star this year. Not only is his ERA less than spectacular, his record is terrible. I mean, it’s hard for me to imagine a 2-8 pitcher being an all-star, especially because his ERA doesn’t wow me.
To some degree
I agree. But ultimately I want a guy who wins. Doesn’t allow runs. What your not going to find in any statistics is…performance.
Winning isn’t simple wins and losses or a low ERA. Pitcher A could give up twice as many hits as Pitcher B. Pitcher B could also Strikeout twice as many batters as Pitcher A. But the question stats can’t answer is….when is that hit allowed or when do you get the strike out? Are the bases empty or loaded? Guys who win games get the outs when they need the outs.
Wins also show a pitcher's level of consistency to a degree
Would you rather have a pitcher who throws 7 innings and gives up 6 runs one game and 7 scoreless innings the next or a pitcher who gives up 3 runs over 7 innings in each start? The first gives you a great chance to win in one start and a poor chance in the next. The latter gives you a quality chance to win in each game. Both have the same ERA, but I would rather have the consistent pitcher.
Wins always depend on run support to a certain degree, but can sometimes be more reliable than ERA as in the case of Nick Blackburn. He’s had a few really bad starts this year but has otherwise been outstanding and deserves his 6-3 record in spite of his rather shabby 4.96 ERA. On the other hand, Liriano also is 6-3 but deserves a better record due to lack of run support.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that sometimes the wins and losses statistic is valuable, and sometimes it is not. But it should not automatically be dismissed as meaningless.
Between Lee and Liriano
I think most of the world doesn’t really realize just how good Liriano is this year. Yeah sure, there are the David Prices and Phil Hughes, but Liriano is really REALLY good. If, thats an IF, Liriano has indeed turned a corner, he is our ace. With Gibson possibly up in the big leagues by July of next year, the Twins would be one of the best rotations in baseball with two ace type pitchers, and Slowey/Baker rounding it off.
Anyways, I believe the starting pitcher in the All-Star Game is between Lee and Liriano. Lee missed the start of the season, but he has been locked in ever since. Liriano had a hick-up in May, but he has been locked in. I would be perfectly content with either Lee or Liriano starting the All-Star Game.
*N.B. If the Twins did manage to shift a reasonable trade for Lee, can you imagine Lee and Liriano heading into the playoffs? Two ace pitchers…I would be willing to face the Yankees then!
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
getting ahead of ourselves
IF Gibson makes the majors next year, (maybe), you think he’ll already be an ace?
IF (strong emphasis), he ever ends up that good, it won’t be his first or second year (IMO). I think he has potential, but he is lighting up the minors because he is a well developed pitcher for lower levels (3 good pitches). Put him in the majors now, and he probably gets shelled. Give him another year, and he might be decent. If his ceiling is being an ace, it will take him time to get there.
All I’m saying is don’t get too optimistic. The current players and the prospects don’t peak together.
Petitte wouldn't be a terrible choice
Sabathia shouldn’t even be going to the game… yet he makes the top 11 list above?
What happened to sorting by ERA or ERA+, filtering out the low-IP guys and boosting the high-K guys?
Sabathia is close to the league lead in IP, and has a higher K rate than Price.
I did filter the list. That’s why there’s no Beckett, Lewis or Vazquez.
Any chance he goes with a Boston guy?
Lester is having a great year and Bucholz is under the radar. I’m not a Boston guy but would be very comfortable sending either of them out.
Pettitte is a good choice
I’d rather have someone not on a short leash when it comes to innings make the start.
In no way, shape, or form should Andy Pettitte be starting the all star game.
He’s having a mostly luck-based good year so far, but he really doesn’t deserve to go based on the fact that he cheated.
I don't like the Yankees either
But a non-Yankee player with his ERA and W/L would be a reasonable pick to start.
All-star decisions are not made based on projections
Which is essentially what the FIP and xFIP metrics are if I understand correctly. Those particular metrics dismiss everything other than walks, strikeouts, and home runs as being unimportant. While said three are important, they are only a small part of the game of baseball and are used to project future ERA.
It’s rather idiotic in my opinion to make All Star game nominations based on projections of what a pitcher’s ERA should be rather than what it actually is. I can listen to the argument that metrics provide a better idea of future results, but what we think a pitcher will do in the future should not impact whether he is an All Star or not. All Star candidates should be selected based on actual results (what they have done, not what you think they will do). Therefore, while those two metrics may be useful for making personnel decisions, I see very little significance in determining who is an All Star and who is not.
Depends on what an All-Star is
Is the All-Star Game designed to choose A) the best players, B) the players who have contributed the most, or C) the players the fans most want to see?
If A, you should use FIP or xFIP (or some other stat that filters out luck/fielding to some degree). If B, you should use ERA (along with IP), although you should try and adjust it for defense and park. If C, there are no statistical criteria.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
unfortunately
most people go with C, which is totally not the point of the All-Star Game. For instance, is Nick Punto worthy of the title “all-star”? I don’t think anybody would claim that Punto is an all-star, yet he is 5th among 3B in votes.
All-Stars are those worthy of the title, just as MVPs and Cy Young Award winners are of theirs. If Juan Uribe was voted as MVP at the end of the season, would you argue the fact? Of course, because it is a statistical position, just as the All-Star Game is for those, or should only be, that qualify from a statistical standpoint.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any of us." - Kirby Puckett
I go on actual results for All Star games
Like I said, if you want to make personnel decisions while taking xFIP and other such metrics into account, that’s fine. But All Stars should be those who performed the best and have actual objective numbers to back this up IMO.
Not really
FIP and xFIP are based on BB’s, K’s and HR’s only (if I understand correctly). Those are really the subjective stats because someone decided that those were the only important stats for a pitcher. What this ignores is that pitchers can make good pitches that force hitters into weakly hit routine outs.
The entire All-Star team is going to be made of Yankees, save for the guys who get voted in or are put in just because they need an All-Star.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"A lot of us didn't even know the rule." -LNP
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jun 16, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That's because Joe Girardi
The manager whose only skill is luck, will be managing the AL team and will get to choose the reserves. Much like Joe Torre and Terry Francona did, as well, they will show an unfair bias towards their players.
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."- Bill Watterson
by 92 MPH Knuckleball on Jun 16, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we really want him to start...?
I mean this from a big picture perspective. It would undoubtedly be a great honor for Francisco, the team and all of us fans, certainly he should be in the discussion, he has pitched that well this season. I’d love to see him up against the best the NL has to offer but I’m uneasy about the potential for injury, getting lit up and regressing, altering his mechanics at all… of course in all likelihood none of this would happen but the fact that it ‘could’ scares me. He’s worked so hard to get back to where he is that I want to see him in a Twins uniform pitching games for us that count. I’m less worried about position players, but rather protective of Liriano at this point. Not sure if anyone else feels the same way.
Yes, we should shut him down for the rest of the year in fear of something bad happening.
All of those things are just as likely to happen in a regular season start as in an all star game, so I wouldn’t be too worried about that.
It makes more sense in regards to the HR Derby too. A pitcher throwing in the All-Star game isn’t any different than throwing in a real game except that it’s less strain because it’s only a few innings at most, whereas the home run derby (real or perceived) seems to have more of a chance to really throw a batter off for the second half.
"Nihilists?... I mean, say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude... at least it's an ethos."
I would be happy
If he just made an APPEARANCE in the all star game, unlike what happened in 2006.
"I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information."- Bill Watterson
by 92 MPH Knuckleball on Jun 16, 2010 3:42 PM EDT reply actions
They've changed the rule so that players can re-enter if there are injuries
They used to hold back one or two guys in case of that (or extra innings).
Turns the whole game into a bit of a sideshow though. Like one of those split-squad games in early spring training. I’m glad everyone “gets to play”, but as far a the game goes its basically over by the 4th inning.
All this article does
Is make me want Cliff Lee that much more. Holy crap, if they could both keep it up we’d have the most lethal 1-2 punch in the bigs come playoff time. Dang.
But seriously, great article, I thoroughly enjoy reading about how good Liriano has been :)
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?

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