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The Twins have the best starters in the AL.

 

This has been discussed in some of the fine trade-deadline stuff this week, but the starting pitching staff has taken a ton of grief lately, and I thought it was time to make the case that we actually have the best pitching staff in the American League! 

*Especially* when playoff time rolls around.

World rocked yet?  If not, allow me to strip away, layer by stinking layer, the myth onion in which you are entrapped.

Star-divide

Myth #1: Liriano is fine, but he's no ace!

In case you haven't noticed (I'm looking at you in particular, Jim Souhan), the best pitcher in the American League pitches for your Minnesota Twins.  His name is Francisco Liriano, and his numbers look something like this (parenthetical ranking shows his place among the other 56 qualifying AL starters):

FIP: 2.18 (1st, and it’s not close)

xFIP: 2.95 (1st, and it’s not close)

% swings that do not make contact: 25.9 (1st)

% pitches out of the zone swung at: 33.7 (3rd)

K/9: 9.81 (3rd)

BB/9: 2.66 (19th)

HR/9: 0.15 (1st by a loooooong shot)

FB%: 26.9 (3rd)

GB%: 52.3 (8th)

ERA: 3.54 (18th)

IP/start: 6.4 (16th)

BABIP: .357 (56th—highest in the league)

You'll notice that Liriano suffers from a classic case of underrated-due-to-ERA.  His batting average on balls in play (BABIP)--something long-established by honest, hard-working stat nerds to be almost entirely out of a pitcher's control--is actually the highest of all qualified AL starters.  In other words, he's been the unluckiest starter in the AL.  If it were merely average (typically about .300), he'd have one of those gaudy, microscopic ERAs that make the babes go crazy.

On the other hand, his demonstrated combination of skills over which pitchers have control--striking people out, avoiding walks, and avoiding home runs and fly balls--is uniquely excellent.  This is why his FIP (measuring percentage of Ks, BBs, and HRs) and xFIP (measuring percentage of Ks, BBs, and fly balls) are tops and with room to spare.  (So suck it Cliff Lee!)

Myth #2: Carl Pavano is awesome because of his mustache.

This is actually true, but I wanted a myth theme with the headings.  The stats for everyone's all-time favorite Yankee are as follows:

FIP: 3.94 (23rd)

xFIP: 3.91 (14th)

% swings that do not make contact: 16.9 (35th)

% pitches out of the zone swung at: 36.1 (1st)

K/9: 5.15 (45th)

BB/9: 1.2 (2nd)

HR/9: 1 (31st)

FB%: 33.3 (14th)

GB%: 48.6 (17th)

ERA: 3.48 (15th)

IP/start: 7.06 (3rd)

BABIP: .259 (5th)

Not the same level of excellence there, but some real bright spots and a nice overall package (these stats are also as of June 21, so they don't include the 9-inning complete-game shutout he just threw on the 22nd).  Liriano's karmic evil Twin, Pavano has had all the good BABIP luck Liriano hasn't, and therefore probably isn't quite the pitcher his ERA suggests, but a decent #2 all the same.

Myth #3: Sure, Liriano and Pavs are fine, but our other starters couldn't pitch their way through the buffet line at a hug-therapy convention!

Wrong.  Consider the adorable Scott Baker:

FIP: 4.01 (26th)

xFIP: 3.84 (10th)

% swings that do not make contact: 18.2 (23rd)

% pitches out of the zone swung at: 35.3 (2nd)

K/9: 7.6 (15th)

BB/9: 1.74 (6th)

HR/9: 1.35 (47th)

FB%: 41 (39th)

GB%: 35.7 (48th)

ERA: 5.15 (48th)

IP/start: 5.96 (42nd)

BABIP:  .343 (52nd—5th highest in league)

If you squint your eyes right at all that, you can see that Baker's actually been a pretty elite pitcher when it comes to striking batters out and avoiding walks.  His Achilles heel is an extreme tendency to allow the long ball, which is bad, but you'll notice that even in that regard he's had pretty bad luck with the percentage of his fly balls that have left the park (another stat that pitchers really have little control over--Baker's HR/FB rate is the 10th worst in the AL).

The 5.15 ERA isn't pretty, but as with Liriano, you're dealing with extremely bad luck on balls in play.  Combine that with the unlucky HR/FB ratio and the small percentage of runners he's stranded (yet another largely luck-based stat), and you'll see that Baker actually hasn't been all that far from that entirely useful starter we've all grown to love over the last few years.  He's just been getting tough breaks (and probably needs a hug).

Myth #4: As a group, our starters just don't match up against the big dogs...EXPESHELLY 4 DA PLEYOFFZ!!1!

Alright, we've already established that we have the best #1 starter: Liriano.  At least, he's been the best so far this year.  I'll grant that year-to-date performance is not the same as a projection for performance going forward, but with pitchers, this is much less so than for position players, especially with the healthy sample size we have for the 56 qualified AL starters (all have at least 96 IP). 

So let's go with it.  Let's say every AL starter will be for the rest of 2010 and the playoffs what they have been so far, in that they'll each continue to display the luck-independent pitching skill that they've demonstrated so far this year.  So we'll measure pitcher quality in FIP and xFIP (we'll just average the two since, while they're largely similar, they each give you a slightly different angle on home-run prevention).  Based on that criteria, here's the list of the AL's "aces":

Team

ERA

FIP

xFIP

(FIP+xFIP)/2

Rank

WAR

Francisco Liriano

Twins

3.54

2.18

2.95

2.565

1

4.7

Cliff Lee

Rangers

2.59

2.55

3.37

2.96

2

4.1

Jon Lester

Red Sox

2.81

2.96

3.4

3.18

3

3.9

Jered Weaver

Angels

3.16

3.08

3.32

3.2

4

3.5

Felix Hernandez

Mariners

2.75

3.05

3.38

3.215

5

4.1

Gavin Floyd

White Sox

3.87

3.19

3.69

3.44

6

3.4

Ricky Romero

Blue Jays

3.5

3.4

3.51

3.455

7

2.8

Justin Verlander

Tigers

3.86

3.09

3.91

3.5

8

3.3

Zack Greinke

Royals

3.59

3.37

3.64

3.505

9

3.2

CC Sabathia

Yankees

3.13

3.72

3.89

3.805

10

2.6

David Price

Rays

2.84

3.63

4.08

3.855

11

2.4

Dallas Braden

Athletics

3.74

3.72

4.02

3.87

12

1.8

Justin Masterson

Indians

5.25

3.99

3.99

3.99

13

1.7

Brian Matusz

Orioles

5.21

4.43

4.74

4.585

14

1.2

 

Again, for all this hemming and hawing about lacking a "true ace," the Twins are actually sitting pretty with Liriano.  The mighty Yankees and Rays on the other hand?  Their aces have been decidedly mediocre so far this year.  I don't know, maybe they're saving themselves for the playoffs?

Alright, so that's the ace matchup; Game 1 in the bag.  On to the pitchers for Game 2 and each team's next-best pitcher:

Team

ERA

FIP

xFIP

(FIP+xFIP)/2

Rank

WAR

Brandon Morrow

Blue Jays

4.71

3.32

3.92

3.62

1

2.6

John Danks

White Sox

3.37

3.34

4.12

3.73

2

3.2

Colby Lewis

Rangers

3.52

3.69

3.98

3.835

3

2.6

Joel Pineiro

Angels

4.18

3.9

3.89

3.895

4

2.2

Carl Pavano

Twins

3.48

3.94

3.91

3.925

5

2.2

Doug Fister

Mariners

3.56

3.58

4.27

3.925

5

1.9

Phil Hughes

Yankees

3.99

3.86

4.09

3.975

7

1.8

James Shields

Rays

4.9

4.35

3.73

4.04

8

1.5

Clay Buchholz

Red Sox

2.81

3.77

4.34

4.055

9

1.9

Trevor Cahill

Athletics

3.19

4.29

4.11

4.2

10

1.2

Max Scherzer

Tigers

4.43

4.31

4.11

4.21

11

1.4

Fausto Carmona

Indians

3.65

4.13

4.65

4.39

12

1.7

Kevin Millwood

Orioles

5.77

5.03

4.33

4.68

13

0.5

Kyle Davies

Royals

5.45

4.72

5.09

4.905

14

0.9

 

Here, Pavano slides in at #5.  Not quite the cat-bird's seat we had in Game 1, but not too shabby, especially when you consider that we almost surely won't face three of the four superior #2 pitchers in the playoffs.  On to Game 3:

Team

ERA

FIP

xFIP

(FIP+xFIP)/2

Rank

WAR

Shaun Marcum

Blue Jays

3.36

3.67

4

3.835

1

2.2

Scott Baker

Twins

5.15

4.01

3.84

3.925

2

1.7

Andy Pettitte

Yankees

2.88

3.98

4.07

4.025

3

1.8

Jake Peavy

White Sox

4.63

4.05

4.12

4.085

4

1.8

Jason Vargas

Mariners

2.97

3.58

4.71

4.145

5

2.3

Gio Gonzalez

Athletics

3.75

4.04

4.41

4.225

6

1.7

Ervin Santana

Angels

3.63

4.09

4.4

4.245

7

1.9

Jeff Niemann

Rays

2.92

4.37

4.26

4.315

8

1.4

C.J. Wilson

Rangers

3.23

4.05

4.63

4.34

9

2

Jeremy Bonderman

Tigers

4.98

4.36

4.55

4.455

10

1.3

Jake Westbrook

Indians

4.74

4.6

4.45

4.525

11

1

John Lackey

Red Sox

4.65

4.32

4.92

4.62

12

1.7

Jeremy Guthrie

Orioles

4.58

4.91

5.1

5.005

13

0.7

Brian Bannister

Royals

5.65

5.54

4.85

5.195

14

0.1

 

That's right.  So far this year by FIP and xFIP, the only team in the AL with a better #3 starter than Baker is the Toronto Freaking Blue Jays, who are, needless to say, a team we will not have to worry about in the playoffs.

So who has the best overall 1-3?  Let's add up the ranks of each team's starters in each of the 3 groups.

Starter #

Starter

Rank among like starters

WAR

Twins

1

Francisco Liriano

1

4.7

2

Carl Pavano

5

2.2

3

Scott Baker

2

1.7

Score

8

8.6

Blue Jays

1

Ricky Romero

7

2.8

2

Brandon Morrow

1

2.6

3

Shaun Marcum

1

2.2

Score

9

7.6

White Sox

1

Gavin Floyd

6

3.4

2

John Danks

2

3.2

3

Jake Peavy*

4

1.8

Score

12

8.4

Rangers

1

Cliff Lee

2

4.1

2

Colby Lewis

3

2.6

3

C.J. Wilson

9

2

Score

14

8.7

Angels

1

Jered Weaver

4

3.5

2

Joel Pineiro

4

2.2

3

Ervin Santana

7

1.9

Score

15

7.6

Mariners

1

Felix Hernandez

5

4.1

2

Doug Fister

5

1.9

3

Jason Vargas

5

2.3

Score

15

8.3

Yankees

1

CC Sabathia

10

2.6

2

Phil Hughes

7

1.8

3

Andy Pettitte

3

1.8

Score

20

6.2

Red Sox

1

Jon Lester

3

3.9

2

Clay Buchholz

9

1.9

3

John Lackey

12

1.7

Score

24

7.5

Rays

1

David Price

11

2.4

2

James Shields

8

1.5

3

Jeff Niemann

8

1.4

Score

27

5.3

Athletics

1

Dallas Braden

12

1.8

2

Trevor Cahill

10

1.2

3

Gio Gonzalez

6

1.7

Score

28

4.7

Tigers

1

Justin Verlander

8

3.3

2

Max Scherzer

11

1.4

3

Jeremy Bonderman

10

1.3

Score

29

6

Indians

1

Justin Masterson

13

1.7

2

Fausto Carmona

12

1.7

3

Jake Westbrook

11

1

Score

36

4.4

Royals

1

Zack Greinke

9

3.2

2

Kyle Davies

14

0.9

3

Brian Bannister

14

0.1

Score

37

4.2

Orioles

1

Brian Matusz

14

1.2

2

Kevin Millwood

13

0.5

3

Jeremy Guthrie

13

0.7

Score

40

2.4

 

You can do the same thing by WAR, but this doesn't change things a whole lot (the Rangers get a very slight edge over the Twins this way).  Either way, the Twins are in as good a shape as anyone with their three best starters.

Myth #5: Please, at least grant me that Kevin Slowey sucks.

Sorry, he's actually the 2nd best #4 starter by FIP and xFIP in the AL (behind the Blue Jays' Brett Cecil).  Similar story to Liriano and Baker: he's had the 7th-worst BABIP luck in the league.

So there you go.  Ka-blam-o!  Myths broken.

Comment 54 comments  |  18 recs  | 

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(applauds)

Excellent work here. Good information, well written and entertaining. Write more.

The fact that three out of four starters have horribly “unlucky” BABIPs makes me worry a bit about the Twins’ defense. I’m comforted a bit by Pavano’s low number, so maybe it’s a fluke, but still… I’d like that to see it come around at some point.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 23, 2010 10:04 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for all that.

The thing about the defense is that the metrics actually have it as pretty good (UZR #2 in the AL) to average (BP’s defensive efficiency: 8th in AL).

by Luke in MN on Jul 23, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Idea

You know, what we need is the raw batted ball and location data used for UZR, in order to make a “reverse UZR” – basically, it would track batted balls that are not expected to be fielded. It would be interesting to know how many of those the Twins are giving up, and whether that’s a factor of luck (grounders into the hole) or skill (liners into the gap).

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 23, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I think you can get at this idea to some extent with LD%

Which has been high in general for the Twins’ pitchers, and which would at least in part explain how we’re getting high BABIP numbers with what seems like decent defense. Check out my response to A. Peterson on that below.

by Luke in MN on Jul 24, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd! Awesome writeup!

I can only agree with BeefMaster here. Great thing to read and definitely a must read for all of those out there crying for Oswalt
Now lets please get some regression for that BABIP for everyone but the ’stach and lets hope that Duensing is able to adequately fill #5 for the rest of the season.

After reading this (and I dont know how the FO really is into any of those stats) I am doubting there will really be a big splash as far as trades…

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 23, 2010 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Great post

Enough of this doom and gloom, we have a good rotation, dammit!

by bl4ckduck on Jul 23, 2010 10:40 AM EDT reply actions  

Nice perspective shift...

…but I sense that you will concede that Mr. Blackburn does need a sojourn in the ’pen.

Speaking of our new long reliever, I wonder if anyone can supply some comparative stats for him. His starts have been routinely hideous of late, but I’m wondering if there may be some statistical explanation for his hot start, followed by the massive stinkfest.

by Cooperstown Needs Bert on Jul 23, 2010 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, it's hard to build a case for Blackburn in the rotation based on his performance this year.

FIP: 5.77 (last)
xFIP: 5.11 (2nd to last)
Contact %: 93.6! (last)
K/9: 3.09 (last by far)

The thing with Blackburn is that he’s just broken. It’s not just that he hasn’t had the good luck he’s had the last two years (which is overstated a bit—his xFIP and FIP weren’t all that far worse than his ERA those years), it’s that the guy from 2008-09 just hasn’t shown up this year.

I’m not sure the bullpen is the best place for him to regain his mojo (or that the Twins really benefit from having him there), but he needed to come out of the rotation anyway.

by Luke in MN on Jul 23, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great look.

Another interesting read Luke, nice job. FP’d.

by Jesse on Jul 23, 2010 12:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Fantastic

I was aware of Liriano’s semi-obscured awesomeness and The Stache makes his awesomeness clear, but I didn’t realize that Baker was secretly not sucking as bad as a I thought. I think a lot of the problem with Slowey and Baker is that many (including me) actually thought they had a chance to IMPROVE on their last few seasons and we just keep seeing them get lit up. When we get our infield healthy, hopefully our defense will shore up and help the BABIP numbers for Bake and Slowey. I wonder how much of Baker’s problems have to do with our outfield defense, though….at least Kube and Young are starting to look a little more comfortable out there.

by dctwin on Jul 23, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Great read

Good to keep things like this in perspective the closer we get to the trade deadline. Let’s hope our starters’ BABIP (except for Pavano’s) start to regress to the mean.

Souhan in Chinese! : "一會兒,德爾蒙楊想與他無關的隊友。不想讓他們打他。難道不希望他們偷了他的頭盔。不希望他們成為他的Facebook的朋友。"

by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Jul 23, 2010 12:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Interesting perspective

But, also needs a dose of reality. Numbers and stats do not win ballgames, and in the last couple of months, especially the last month, Bake, Slowey and B-Burn have not kept the Twins close enough to win games. Likely, things will even out and the ship will get steadied, but, from the point of view of stability, they have been dreadful of late and we are fighting for third place in the weak Central.

Liriano is a special case, When he can get through the early innings, he’s a Monster. But, he’s been beatable early, and the victim of bunts and walks in the early innings. I love having him on the staff, but, will he really show up in the Big Game? Not against Ubaldo, not against the Tigers at home. That’s troubling.

On paper we’re fine. But they play on the diamond, and that’s where we are getting beat, and beat too early and too often, even Liriano.

by Old Twins Cap on Jul 23, 2010 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Rotation and Blackburn

I made a comment on another post that trades aren’t the key to the Twins postseason. The key is the performance of their current starting pitchers. Adding Sandy Koufax woudn’t be enough improvement on the current performance, and if the twins rotation played as expected at the beginning of the year, most of the options out there are unnecessary.

So, someone (ahem, Anderson), needs to figure out why our pitching has been so bad, and fix it. Or if it’s luck, it needs to even out. As regards Blackburn, here is some info I posted on Gleeman’s post on Blackburn:
-————————————————————
Blackburn actually bucked the trend (ERA vs FIP/xFIP) for 4 years, including his minor league success that got him ranked as our top prospect.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4270&position=P
His K rate and BB rate have been consistent since 2006 (ups and downs, but no obvious trend). His ‘06 numbers are skewed I believe, by a big split between 1st half and second half. I think that, since mid year ‘06, his ERA has consistently been below his FIP (xFIP only available for MLB). However, his FIP rose when he went to the MLB because his HR/9 rose.

I would love to see someone due the regression to get the credibility factor, but what percentage of people who’s ERA<FIP for 3.5 years (by about .5) are able to keep it up.

Anyway, his FIP and xFIP are basically driven by his HR rate. That is what got so much worse this year. HR/FB of 14% is about 50% higher than his prior MLB average. I think it’s fair to expect regression going forward, back to FIP/xFIP more similar to his prior numbers. Whether you expect his ERA to match his prior ERA or his prior FIP/xFIP (which at 4.5 wouldn’t be bad), depends on the credibility stat I put above.

Anyway, demoting him makes sense. Someone needs to figure out what’s wrong, and fix it, so the HRs stop, and the K rate goes back above 4, and BB below 2. It may not be this year, but I think it’s fair to put up an a priori expectation for next year in the range of 150-200 IP with ERA around 4.5.

I.e. don’t dump him completely. I have high hopes for his return next year.

by snolls on Jul 23, 2010 12:46 PM EDT reply actions  

4.50 wouldn't be bad at all--

But of course the key is to fix what’s gone wrong, as you say. Mechanical problems, I suppose, elude statistics, at least when we’re talking averages over time.

by Cooperstown Needs Bert on Jul 23, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Encouraging

Take that, everyone else!

by bbeeck on Jul 23, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions  

Excellent Analysis....but while we're doing stats

A couple of other stats that stick out…
Twin starter ranks in MLB out of 30 teams
BAA .283 (28) Only Balt and Pitt are worse
ERA 4.55(24)
OPS .771 (25)
TB 1040 (1) Twins starters lead MLB in TB
Hits 655 (1) Twins starters lead MLB in Hits
and now for the good news
Wins as a starter…(42) tied for 3rd (Boston) Thanks Pav!
BB 125 (1)
Basically confirms what we already know…Twins starters give up a lot of base hits, extra base hits…but don’t walk many and surprisingly thanks to:
Twins BA wRISP .289 (1) and bullpen ERA 3.09 (2)
have managed, in the most important stat of all Wins (51) to be tied for 11th in MLB….almost top third.

 

by rancher33 on Jul 23, 2010 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

All that could be related

As Luke noted, three of the Twins’ starters (Baker, Slowey, Liriano) have very high BABIP. If that is indeed luck and not a product of leaky defense or them giving up increasingly solid contact, than every single negative stat you posted might be explained away…

BAA would obviously go down if BABIP went down (assuming that there isn’t a ridiculous spike in HR rate). ERA would go down if they gave up a lower batting average. Any decrease in BAA would be doubled in their opponents’ OPS. TB and hits also scale with BAA.

I’m not sure that the Twins’ poor BABIP allowed is actually the product of bad luck (the defense and solid contact explanations are scarily plausible), but it would certainly be nice if it was.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 23, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Starter's BAA, TB and HR's

I was surprised that the starters win total was top 3 with all the hits and TB’s they have given up. They have had to do a lot of damage control and a lot of pitching from the stretch.
Starter’s HR allowed tied for 9th (Yankees, Rangers) not horrible. Blackburn has allowed (19) same as Hamels and Lilly. Garza, Sheets (18), Shields (22) Buy hey…Haren has given up (23) Oswalt only (11).

by rancher33 on Jul 23, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good work & post.

The problem is that it’s not translating into wins. We are 3 games back in a mediocre division that we may not even win. So much for stats. Liriano & Pavano have pitched well for awhile now but after that it’s a crapshoot. Hopefully someone else will step up to give us some consistency. The good thing is that the Tigers & the Sox have problems also. If we can get to the postseason we stand a chance. Not a good chance, but if we can get hot at the end who knows.

by iowaron on Jul 23, 2010 2:34 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree with you...stats do only go so far.

I think that is what’s frustrating…no stat for “Give me the ball, I’m going to win this (expletive) game”

by rancher33 on Jul 23, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed, sort of--

It’s true that the stats are not translating into wins right now, and stats mean little without the ultimate W.

At the same time, this might be somewhat of an indication that it isn’t really panic-time for the rotation. These figures may completely fail to predict what happens down the stretch, but they do suggest that the rotation doesn’t need a major fix, apart from the steps that have already been taken.

But, on the other hand, I think that the statistics do miss something with regard to deadline trades which the posts from earlier this week at least point to: the “rake” factor. It’s completely unpredictable and, I would suppose, statistically unprovable, but a trade can be a spark, a motivator, both for the team as a whole and for the acquired player. The Twins have seen that with Stewart, Cabrera, and Pavano in recent years, and I wonder if it could happen again this year.

I’m not much of a statistician, but I’d be curious to see some figures on players performing above expectations after a trade.

by Cooperstown Needs Bert on Jul 23, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey it's our team Hugh.

I going to root for them win or lose. Hey the 87 Twins won 85 regular season games but guess who has the trophy.

by iowaron on Jul 23, 2010 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Buerhle's

WAR is 2.0

"it’s over, tdogg.

no. it’s not unlike me. when i make an unqualified statement, it means i’m sure i’m right" Larry

by Tdogg on Jul 23, 2010 2:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post

Enjoyed the analysis and especially the humor! GO TWINS!

by twinzgrl on Jul 23, 2010 2:46 PM EDT reply actions  

My man

The Hochevar Principle: The future comes to all teams. Some teams wait for it. Those teams finish in last place a lot. -Joe Posnanski

by DaTwins on Jul 23, 2010 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Excellent

Rec’d!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
Minnesota Twins 2010: GAME 163 OR BUST!!!

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jul 23, 2010 4:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Myth #6: Twins defense is great

If Liriano, Baker and Slowey all have high BABIP, it stands to reason that Lil’ Nicky Punto is not getting after it enough.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 23, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions  

let's see:

morneau: above average
o-hud: average?
hardy: above average!!
punto/hardy: at least average

so its definitely not the infield that would be the bad link.

however:
span: average CF
young: slightly below average
cuddy/kubel: well below average

and especially for our FB pitchers, this is not a good thing…

by twinscrazy_german on Jul 23, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're forgetting

In amost half the games, one or the other of Hardy and Hudson have been hurt (or both).

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 24, 2010 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

BABIP and LD%

First of all, great article. It really helps put things into perspective, just how good Liriano and Pavano have been. But I don’t think the BABIP is as much due to luck as you note. Baker’s given up 23.3% line drives, so his BABIP is actually about in line with LD%. Liriano has given up 20.7% line drives, so one would expect a BABIP near .330. So he’s been a little unlucky, but not as much as I would say Pavano’s been lucky by the same measure.

by Adam Peterson on Jul 23, 2010 7:20 PM EDT reply actions  

My understanding is that, counterintuitively, LD% itself is largely luck driven for pitchers.

Although not entirely. Here’s what seems like a good explanation in an article about why Baseball Prospectus’s SIERA is supposedly superior to FIP or xFIP: “In any given season, the average starting pitcher who can keep his job will have his BABIP determined roughly 75 percent by luck, 13 percent by his team’s defense/park, and 12 percent by his own skill.*” http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=10281"

So I think you’re right that, given a high LD% (which a lot of the Twins have), you’ll expect a high BABIP, but the fact of a high LD% itself is largely—though not entirely—luck driven. So you won’t expect a high LD% to be predictive of future performance; or at least, you’d expect it to be only predictive of future performance to a small degree.

If you go by SIERA, which claims to accurately measure this small extent to which pitchers can control thier own BABIP with actual repeatable pitcher skills, you get Liriano at #2 in the AL instead of 1st by FIP/xFIP(behind Jered Weaver), with Baker 12th instead of 19th by FIP/xFIP, Pavano 21st instead of 18th, and Slowey 31st instead of 36th. So it really doesn’t impact the overall picture too much, and if anything, as a whole it makes the Twins starters look a little better.

by Luke in MN on Jul 24, 2010 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Accurate?

Great read.

I can’t really believe they are that good.

Really hard to imagine, our top 3, Liriano, Pav, and Baker are 1 2 3 for pitches swung at out of the zone.

by Joshua P on Jul 23, 2010 11:22 PM EDT reply actions  

I was amazed by that too.

My theory is that it’s because Twins pitchers are such notorious strike-throwers. So batters are just going to go up there swinging, assuming it will be a strike (which it usually is). When it’s not, they’re going to tend to be swinging anyway.

Although with Liriano at least, he’s just very deceptive and gets a ton of swings at balls that end up being way out of the zone.

by Luke in MN on Jul 24, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right.

I didn’t doubt Liriano being 1st or close to the top at least. But usually good curveball pitchers get alot of swings out of the zone. I don’t think of Baker or Pav having nasty out of the zone pitches like guys like Grienke, Verlander etc.

by Joshua P on Jul 24, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Give me a book of stats a mile thick

and I’ll make the case for any player or any team in the league.

This is the most homerific take I have ever seen.

TWINSWINS

by Kaine on Jul 24, 2010 1:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Well, it's not exactly a cherry-picking of metrics to prove a point.

Strikeouts, walk rates, WAR, FIP, xFIP…they’re all exceptional indicators of future performance. So calling it horrific is probably a pretty horrific description of Luke’s work.

Where I’d give you some leeway is if you’d said: It’s less that the Twins have the best rotation in the AL, and more that the Twins rotation has pitched a lot better than their results. That would have been accurate.

by Jesse on Jul 24, 2010 4:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Horrific v. Homerific

He called him a “homer” meaning “blinded by his home team”.

by DJL44 on Jul 24, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

I liked the part where Scott Baker defeated the cyclops

Or, rather, he should have, based on his FIP, even though he was actually decapitated due to poor luck on teeth-in-play.

"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein

by BeefMaster on Jul 26, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   3 recs

Scott Baker

Baker does get homeriffic from time to time

by DJL44 on Jul 30, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Oops.

That’s what I get for a fast read.

by Jesse on Jul 25, 2010 6:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Right, but most of the cases you make...

Will be sadly wrong. A “case” can be made for anything. Man up and learn about the cases being made and you’ll learn to recognize the poorly made ones.

And… This is a well made case, based on well understood, standard statistics. Not a bunch of ass grabbing, which is what you’d need to make a “case for any player or any team in the league”.

Just because it’s complicated and you don’t know how it works doesn’t mean it’s wrong.

Go Twins!

by Patrick42 on Jul 30, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

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