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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

Why it must be impossible to manage based on statistics

It is surely the golden age of baseball statistics. Baseball Reference and FanGraphs and Retrosheet pretty much guarantee that, no matter what stat I want, I can have it immediately. Tom Nieto's batting average as a Twin? .152, in 65 games. That took me maybe eight seconds to find. I can tell you that Nick Punto has never had a hit off of Joel Pinero, the only guy that Nicky has faced at least ten times without getting at least one hit.

Just about every statistic you could conceive of is out there, ready for armchair analysts to parse and dissect. And while that's wonderful for us fans, it does make me feel bad for Ron Gardenhire and field staffs everywhere, who are now - if they choose to be - awash in a sea of data.

Allow me to demonstrate how annoying this discussion can thus become. Let's consider a few decisions that Gardy might have to make, and look at a few statistics.

1. Jon Rauch should be replaced as closer.

NO: He's saved 20 games, the same as Mariano Rivera (to pick one other person). His WPA is higher than any other Twins reliever, which means he's getting it done. His FIP is lower than any other current reliever except for Jesse Crain.

YES: If you use WPA/LI instead of WPA to judge win probability, which helps remove the WPA benefit that Rauch gets from being the closer, he's almost exactly at zero - much lower than Crain, Matt Guerrier, or even Ron Mahay. He's giving up 1.38 baserunners per inning, which is mediocre, and striking out fewer batters than Crain.

2. The starting rotation needs drastic help.

YES: I feel like I hardly need to cite stats here, as the conventional wisdom is pretty much established: Francisco Liriano and Carl Pavano have been good, Scott Baker and Kevin Slowey have been bad, and Nick Blackburn will soon be tried for crimes against baseball. Meanwhile, Brian Duensing, who replaced Blackburn, may be helpful.

NO: Go read Luke in MN's compelling post, titled "The Twins have the best starters in the AL."

3. Nick Punto's glove is worth enough to keep him in the lineup over Danny Valencia.

YES: Punto hasn't made an error at third base all year. He also has the best Revised Zone Rating of any third baseman in the majors who's played at least 100 innings there. And Valencia has demonstrated no power; basically, you'd be trading Punto's glove for maybe one more single per week. Even that's in question, as Valencia's BABIP is .391 to Punto's .282, which may be unsustainable.

NO: Going by Ultimate Zone Rating/150 games, Valencia actually has a better glove than Punto. He walks more often, strikes out less, and is hitting .333 to Punto's .242.

 

So there you have it: all sides of every issue, successfully argued!

For me, the truth about baseball stats is that just about any opinion you have, you can find a statistic that supports your opinion (and I am more guilty than most when it comes to this). We often wonder if our favorite teams have climbed on board the Stats Express and started using advanced statistics in their decision-making process, either on or off the field. In a way, I can understand if they don't; there's almost so much information available that it's just not that helpful.

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the truth about baseball stats is that just about any opinion you have, you can find a statistic that supports your opinion

There are lots of unsupportable opinions. E.g. Drew Butera should be starting at catcher and Joe Mauer should be the back-up. We just rarely entertain these opinions because it isn’t worth having them. The contrary opinion is also not worth having because all the evidence supports them: E.g. Mauer should be the starting catcher and Butera should be the back-up. Nobody disputes that, so there’s no point in saying it.

For the opinions worth entertaining, there’s some evidence to support them. And stats have become the default because they’re easy to get and public.

Also, there are opinions that are worth entertaining and all the stats seem to favor. E.g., the Danny Valencia case. By the stats, he’s better both offensively and defensively. The only way to counter these opinions is by making anecdotal claims or by speculating. I think we all agree that the non-scouts among us should favor stats over anecdotal evidence or speculation. Oh, and none of us is a scout.

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2010 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

Does the wife know about this?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I play by nobody's rules!

Actually I think she’d just find this funny.

by Jesse on Jul 26, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously though, I agree with you.

Jon points out three good examples, but a lot of it has to do with interpretation of the stats, what they’re used for and how they apply to the position under analysis. Leverage index, for example, will be lower for closers on some occasions because they could be getting a lot of 3-run lead saves. Middle relievers, meanwhile, could be pitching during higher leverage situations earlier in the game.

There’s also the human element, and I’m not just talking about “they guy the manager has a crush on” in regards to Punto. In this situation, the veteran has experience, the manager knows how he’ll react in game situations, and he has a track record. I’m not necessarily defending starting Punto over Valencia, but to a certain extent it’s understandable.

But generally, numbers can help and if you don’t cherry pick them they can give you a pretty accurate overall view of a player. Hopefully this guides a manager’s choices, because they’re good for three things:

1—Telling you what you already know.
2—Telling you when your eyes are lying to you.
3—Telling you things that aren’t quantifiable day-to-day.

With Jon’s examples, I feel like the answers are pretty easy. In the closer situation, there’s nobody better or more experienced, and he hasn’t pitched badly, so no he shouldn’t be replaced. The rotation doesn’t need drastic help, but it does need one new character and it needs two others to actually pitch like they’re capable of pitching. And no, Punto’s glove shouldn’t be enough, because Valencia’s proven he’s a capable defender and he’s obviously a bigger threat with the bat.

by Jesse on Jul 26, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, more data = more better

If having a ton of sometimes-conflicting evidence is making what seemed like an easy decision difficult, the data has done you the favor of pointing out that things aren’t as clear as you thought they were.

by Luke in MN on Jul 26, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Debatable

I think the paradox of choice, among other things, have shown that too much information and too many choices actually makes us miserable. What’s important is sorting out what data actually matters.

by wcooley on Jul 26, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is why the Brits only have 4 choices for soda,

3 choices for ice cream and 2 choices for fast food.

They’ve eliminated the paradox of choice, but at the risk of not really having enough.

by Jesse on Jul 26, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was just in the grocery store

I thought my head might explode in the baby food aisle. I think I will let my wife handle that from now on.

by wcooley on Jul 26, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Where do cheesy peas fit into that scheme?

"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot

by cmathewson on Jul 26, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude...

…if you’ve never seen The Fast Show, you need to. Just 3 series, each one about 6 or 7 episodes, and then a 3-part xmas special: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108771/

by Jesse on Jul 26, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

diet

Yeah, is that a meal for you? Granted, English food is crap, but you might want to mix in some greens with your limited selection of soda, ice cream, and fast food.

by wcooley on Jul 26, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Appetiser: Soda

Main: Fast food
Dessert: Ice cream

No, it’s nothing like my diet…truth be told I eat way healthier here than I ever did in the States. But I was super hungry when I made that comment…

by Jesse on Jul 26, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think when you don't have one dominant reliever,

it’s almost easier to manage the situation. Since high-leverage innings aren’t limited to save situations, you set one of your best pitchers aside for the saves (Rauch), and you get another basically as good pitcher for those other basically as important innings. If that other pitcher is actually better than your closer, it doesn’t really matter (and may actually be good).

And thanks for the article shout out, btw.

by Luke in MN on Jul 26, 2010 11:43 AM EDT reply actions  

It also depends on your people

as some pitchers are simply better in a 9th inning situation to close out a game, but put them in a 7th inning bases loaded situation they’re not as good. And vice versa.

by Adam Peterson on Jul 26, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure he wasn't saying that stats are meaningless.

But there are so many different advanced metrics out there; some of them straight up contradict the other. What I get out of the article is there is no “definitive” statistic. And yes, you can find a stat to back up almost every argument. Except for the most ridiculous (bench joe mauer!!!11). Objectivity is key.

by PurplePeopleEaters on Jul 26, 2010 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Even in the case of Mauer v Butera....

You could look at pitcher ERAs over the past several games and show that Butera’s effect on the pitching staff is well worth his downgrade on offense. I think most would agree this relies on some bad assumptions (eg, ignoring that pitchers are different and that Butera caught Pavano but Mauer didn’t while the rest of the staff struggled), but the point is, you could make a statistic out of it and plead your case.

by TheIntern on Jul 26, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Haha. There you go.

Free Butera! :|

by PurplePeopleEaters on Jul 26, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

That and the very, very tiny known real effect of "catcher's ERA".

Anyway, it’s the dual staches. When they lock eyes, the power from the Pavstache flows in to Butera through his own stache, and the batters just can’t swing right any more.

Go Twins!

by Patrick42 on Jul 30, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Punto

I want him on the bench as our TOP backup for our infield. He’ll still end up starting a lot but he’ll be fresh then. He’s not a good enough bat to be a FT starter.

by TrevorR on Jul 26, 2010 3:19 PM EDT reply actions  

+1

I’ve said this for years. I’m ok with Punto getting 250-300 at bats as the primary backup infielder, but if we’re depending on him every day we’re in a bit of trouble. Unless we’re stacked everywhere else.

by Adam Peterson on Jul 27, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Too many numbers

I think I have a headache

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by TheJazzyOne on Jul 26, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Math sucks!

"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
Minnesota Twins 2010: GAME 163 OR BUST!!!

by less cowbell, more 'neau on Jul 26, 2010 5:34 PM EDT reply actions  

A problem of approach.

Of course you’re going to have this problem if you start with a baseball decision question and start looking for statistics to answer it. This is totally backwards. In order to make good decisions, you should understand the theory behind the statistics and know how much you are willing to rely on each before the question comes up. And you can approach the 174 flavors of ice cream already knowing that you really like mangoes, and able to make an easy choice.

by timprov on Jul 26, 2010 11:29 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

Well said. Each statistic or metric tells a bit of the story and has its own unique limitations. For example, RBI are highly dependent on opportunities. Wins for starting pitchers depend greatly on run support.

by Adam Peterson on Jul 27, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

A team with lots of pitcher wins is almost certainly a good team.

But, uh, who on the team is good, though? They do NOT tell you that.

The pitchers? The offense? Who knows…!

(Which is the same point you’re making, I’m just rambling)

Go Twins!

by Patrick42 on Jul 30, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is VERY well said, timprov.

An excellent way of looking at it.

Go Twins!

by Patrick42 on Jul 30, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

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