Twins Trade Rumors: No Deal Imminent for Cliff Lee
by Jesse on Jul 6, 2010 10:02 AM EDT
in Speculation
Email
PrintNothing has changed since last night.
Late yesterday rumors began circulating that the Twins and Mariners were within mere minutes of completing a deal that would have sent Cliff Lee to Minnesota in exchange for two of the farm system's biggest prospects: struggling catcher Wilson Ramos and struggling outfielder (and 2008 first-round draft pick) Aaron Hicks.
Ramos, who raked over his first two games with the Twins before never seeing a fastball again, hasn't been able to produce in Rochester this season. He's still one of baseball's biggest prospects in terms of an offensive catcher, but his .208/.244/.319 line isn't doing him, or the Twins, any favors. He'll turn 23 in August.
Hicks, meanwhile, is doing a bit better in his second turn in Beloit, but he's still batting just .260/.372/.407 as a 20-year old. It's certainly not bad, although some might say it's a bit disappointing for a player with his skills.
FOX Sport's Ken Rosenthal had this to say on the rumor:
Mariners general manager Jack Zduriencik declined to comment when asked to characterize his discussions with the Twins. No deal between the teams is imminent, another source with direct knowledge of the talks said.
Suffice it to say that, yes, the Twins are scouting Lee actively and are probably one of the few places he could realistically end up. But right now, we're still in a holding pattern.
In the mean time, I'd be ready to move both Ramos and Hicks in return for Lee. Would you?
66 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
ESPN this morning
Jayson Stark said on Mike and Mike this morning that the Twins were “In the best position of any team” to make the deal with the M’s.
I still would be shocked if the Twins pull the trigger. Its just not what they do. Although I hope they come out of character on this one.
"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have"
Thomas Jefferson
by RileysCannibalJct on Jul 6, 2010 10:13 AM EDT reply actions
Nobody
ever mentions the draft picks we would get since he’ll be a type A free agent
Sure we do.
We talk about it quite regularly here.
by Jesse on Jul 6, 2010 10:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn't...yet
I still spend the rest of the month trying to talk them down, because that is a bit high. But when it comes down to it, if they won’t budge, I make the trade.
Yes but . .
Cliff Lee today is worth more than Cliff Lee in a month
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Jul 6, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
If I have to sit through another month
Of Blackburn giving up 6-7 runs a start (if we’re lucky, it’s over 6 innings and not 2) I will lose my mind. Get this trade done and get Blackburn out of the rotation.
Could just flip him and Duensing
They can upgrade on Blackburn without trading for Cliff Lee. There are other starters available also.
I voted yes
I still would like to see Ramos up. He needs at-bat in the pros. Hicks, I’m not thrilled with.
I think BA overranked him
He’s all tools and hasn’t performed at a level to warrant a top 20 ranking. He’s showing it again this year. Repeating a level and failing to improve. A bit worrisome. So worrisome that I don’t lose sleep at night about trading him for Cliff Lee.
The Twins fans that are acting like the sky is falling if this trade were to happen are overreacting. It’s bad, but not disastrous. Plus a rotation that starts with Lee, Liriano, Pavano? Yeah, I’ll take that for the playoffs.
by Milt on Tilt on Jul 6, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
+1
Lee can only help get the Twins to the post season and then I hope help them have a deep run.
Now with TF and the additional funds, I’m ok with the Twins trading a prospect like Hicks. If all the M’s want is Ramos and Hicks, I say pull the trigger Billy Boy!
"Ride an ass because somewhere there's a very tired mule" - you know who you are
because he yelled at Gomez?
Maybe it’s Gomez thats the A-Hole.
by Milt on Tilt on Jul 6, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Nah dude, just look at him in that picture.
He wants to kick that bubble gum’s ass. What a prick.
That hair might say A-Hole, though.
by Jesse on Jul 6, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
thats a good point
but what does Chase Utleys hair say about him then?
by Milt on Tilt on Jul 6, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Cliff is not an A-Hole
He’s the coolest guy we have, always knows what to say, and flashes that cute smile of his.
…they should send down Huntington & Nutting, because they aren’t ready, either. - royshowell
by Marinerfanjake on Jul 6, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Mac loves Chase Utley's hair...
“Dear Chase, I feel like I can call you Chase because you and me are so much alike. I would love to meet you some day, it would be great to have a catch. I know I can’t throw as fast as you but I think you would be impressed with my speed. I love your hair. You run fast. Did you have a good relationship with your father? Me neither. These are all things we can talk about and more. I know you have not been getting my letters because I know you would write back if you did, and I hope you write back this time and we get to be good friends. I am sure our relationship would be a real ‘home run.’”
I think Hicks is overrated, at least in the Twins org
He’s got monster tools. But he will take a while to get up here: at least four years, probably five. Meanwhile, Ben Revere, Joe Benson and Angel Morales will be blocking his path. And he has Arcia and Kepler on his heels (not to mention Goodrum). Add it all up and he’s the perfect guy to trade:
1. He’s highly rated by BA (and thus very valuable),
2. He’s one of six major league outfield prospects in the system.
3. He’s quite possibly not the best outfield prospect in the system
4. He’s not even the third closest outfield prospect to the majors
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Off topic, but after looking no better this year at the same level do you give though to putting him on the mound? I can remeber many teams on draft day thought that was the way for him.
To be fair, he has just barely spent a full season there
He was called up to Beloit at the end of instructs last year. Also, he is doing better as of late. His overall numbers are dragged down by an early season slump.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Yeah.
I’m not thinking twice about moving him to a pitcher. Three or four years down the line if he’s 24 and struggling in AAA, then sure. Give it a shot. But he’s too talented to give up on after so little time in the minors.
Everybody needs time.
Just a thought, I randomly had because I know that the scouting services were 50-50 heading into the draft.
The Twins do seem to have a glut of young outfield prospepects so, you can’t argue with the logic.
This is true.
A lot of people thought he’d be drafted as a pitcher. I’m glad they went OF with him though, especially since it’s what he wanted to do.
4. He’s not even the third closest outfield prospect to the majors
I don’t think that’s a good argument. He still has the most potential.
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jul 6, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure,
but I think CMath’s point is that he’s still too far away to help when Cuddyer and Kubel are on their way out the door.
And potential usually doesn’t work out. In this scenario, I’m trading potential for an ace and a shot at the World Series.
I just think we’d be giving up way too much talent in this deal. I’m am pretty certain the Twins wouldn’t seriously consider this package.
I am all for going for the World Series this year. But we can’t throw away our future for it. Hicks is most likely overrated. But he is still an above average prospect with impressive plate discipline to go along with his tools. I think he needs to start hitting. I’m not ready to give up on him though.
Yes, we would be getting two high draft picks. But we all know the draft is a crapshoot. We’d be giving up two our best prospects for two unknowns and a rental.
I hope beyond hope that we get Lee. But not if it costs this much.
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jul 6, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
you know what else is a crapshoot?
toolsy prospects in lowA ball
either way it's a crapshoot
the 2 picks or Hicks panning out…
the one thing we can project w/ a little more certainty is Lee’s performance which would be an improvement to the starting staff…
"Ride an ass because somewhere there's a very tired mule" - you know who you are
Sure thing ace>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>crapshoot
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jul 6, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ramos + Hicks does not = throwing away our future.
This organization has a lot of high-upside outfielders that they can roll the dice on.
+1
It’s a high cost, but it’s not throwing away our future. The question for me is whether three months of Cliff Lee is worth the high cost. My gut tells me: pull the trigger. Especially with our OF prospects and Mauer signed long term. And getting two picks when Lee walks will soften the blow.
by Adam Peterson on Jul 6, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I was overly dramatic.
It probably wouldn’t be throwing away our future. Hicks has the potential to be a great outfielder for several years. Clif Lee WILL be great for half a season. And it doesn’t even come close to guaranteeing a World Series win.
Aaron Gleeman sums up my thoughts perfectly:
“If the Mariners are willing to take Ramos or Revere plus a mid-level prospect or two the Twins would be smart to pull the trigger. And if they’re willing to include underrated reliever Brandon League along with Lee it would even make sense for the Twins to give up Ramos and Revere. I’d balk at anything beyond that, including a Hicks/Ramos package. Lee is amazing, but getting him for half a season guarantees nothing and that’s just too much long-term value lost.”
The Twins will NOT make this deal. I like their chances of getting Lee without including Hicks.
by PurplePeopleEaters on Jul 7, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't think they'd do this deal either.
It sounds too generous of the Twins to give up two prized prospects. But I do disagree with you, and I disagree with Gleeman too in this case.
He says getting Lee for a half season that guarantees nothing, and that’s true. But two prospects panning out is also not guaranteed. It’s a risk either way, and it has little to do with what’s “guaranteed”. I’d risk it. But I agree with you that the Twins probably won’t.
I just wish we had other rumors to compare to...
Hicks and Ramos seems a bit much to me – if we are fine with trading them, I think they can net more than a few months of an excellent pitcher. Maybe the last week has soured me – unless Lee is the difference between winning in the playoffs and not, I don’t think he is worth two premium prospects. And the way we’ve been playing lately, I’m not sure that he is. Hopefully the rumor is Ramos OR Hicks. I’m fine with a package around Hicks – as others have mentioned above, he doesn’t wow me with his abilities. I don’t think he should be untouchable. Ramos isn’t having a great year, but he’s still a great trade piece. A couple hot weeks and this conversation sounds a lot different.
I'm ahving a hard time reconciling
the comments from 2 weeks ago which were mostly “Git-r-dun” type of sentiments, with the current mind-set which seem to be along the lines of “anything more than Blackburn plus Revere is too much”.
My question is – are these the same people? You can’t have it both ways – bitchin about getting it done but limiting the cost given up
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Jul 6, 2010 12:49 PM EDT reply actions
I imagine they're not the same people.
People either still want it to get done, or the ones who thought “Blackburn plus Revere it too much” definitely think Ramos and Hicks is too much.
There. Reconciled.
Blackburn + Revere
does not = Hicks + Ramos. Not by a long shot. I would love to see a deal done, but not just for the sake of getting it done. The Twins might have more resources to work with now, but there is no reason to get reckless with prospects. I could maaaaybe be convinced, but I think something besides just Lee needs to come back in a Hicks+Ramos type of trade.
No Hicks
I’m not opposed to trading away Hicks, but if the Twins do, it should be for something a little more long-term—like the 3rd baseman we’ve all wanted since Koskie left. I don’t have any great plan, but just my feeling on the topic at hand.
You never know, the Mets always stink at the end of the year, so give them a few weeks to fall apart and go get Wright ;)
by SD Twins Fan on Jul 6, 2010 12:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Hicks minus his early season slump
Hicks started the year 1-31. Since then his triple slash line is .287/.405/.457. That’s a bit more what we expect from him right? So I wouldn’t just right him off based on his season numbers. I realize this is cutting the numbers to make them sound better but when you figure this is almost 3 months of performance it’s not like he’s just on a hot streak.
I’m not 100 % against this trade and I agree Hicks may have been overrated in general but I don’t want the mistake to be made an have him underrated right now. The only reason I consider trading him is because of the presence of guys like Benson, Morales, Revere, Tosoni, etc. It’s a place of surplus and like Cmath pointed out earlier, I’m not even convinced he’s our best outfield prospect and he’s certainly not close to the big leagues yet.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
I wonder if there was anything else coming back with Lee?
That’s not unheard of either, maybe they were planning to send us a prospect of some sort in order to get both Hicks and Ramos? Do they have any middle infield prospects that are blocked? I don’t know crap about their system but that would make sense to give them a guy like Hicks instead of say Revere so we could get a prospect back that we like at an area of need.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
Untouchables
1. Gibson
2. Sano
3. Benson (I really like him, even before his current hot streak)
Everyone else is fair game in my mind, but if we are giving up our 2 best prospects we better get something more than Cliff Lee. Have them throw in Matt Tuiasosopo, or a bullpen arm, something more than 3 months of Cliff Lee.
Hicks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Benson
Beadlemaniacs - Award winning* college basketball blog (new and improved!)
College Hockey!
I'd say Hicks >> Benson
Hicks is a B+. Benson is a B- but could become a B if he continues to play like this for the rest of the year. They have the same floor. Hicks has a little better ceiling with the bat. But that’s very much in question because he is struggling to hit from the left side of the plate.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Context Matters
Part of the reason why Hicks is so highly regarded is that he is young for his league (20 when the average player is closer to 22) and his hitting #s compare favorably to the league average in the midwest league, which typically has lower offensive #s then we are accustomed to seeing in the majors.
He’s further away from the majors than some of the other guys mentioned in this thread, but he’s not being rated based on that: he’s being rated based on what an advanced stage he is at for his age (holding his own despite being almost two years younger than the average player in the midwest league).
Hicks+Ramos for a 3 month rental of Lee is too much. We don’t want to be on the wrong side of a Pierzynski for Nathan/Bonser/Liriano type swap.
Ramos is a high quality piece, and he, in addition to maybe a fringe MLB starter (think Duensing/Manship/Swarzak) and another lower level outfield prospect should be enough to beat out other teams. If not, feel free to use Ramos in a trade for someone else—we’re not wedded to Cliff Lee.
I bet there are at least five teams . . .
That could and would beat a Ramos/Duensing/Low OF package.
And it doesn’t matter what we think, it’s what Seattle thinks that counts.
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Jul 6, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions
Ted Lilly
I wonder what Ted Lilly would fetch in trade. He’s an upcoming free agent, the Cubs are out of it and he’s been very good. I would get the Cubs involved in this. There is a good chance they get Lilly cheaper than Lee and Lilly is probably 90% of Lee.
in the end you need to give something to get something
at least most times.
Lee gives us a much better shot this year and we don’t know if Hicks will have that same impact years from now.
The Twins have always blinked when they have had a chance to add a player like Lee. I’m fine with them going for it for once. I don’t think trading either of these guys will break the farm system.
"Ride an ass because somewhere there's a very tired mule" - you know who you are
How about Hicks / Ramos
for Lee / Aaardsmaaa ?
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Jul 6, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions
I had heard that, too. But do we really need another arm in the bullpen? AAA is already overcrowded with relievers who should be playing for us now (Neshek, Condrey, Slama…)
this
I don’t see the logic in trading for Aardsma when we’re already really deep and we’d have to pay him significant bucks next season.
I said this else where, but Slama could be the Twins equivalent to John Axford. (With slightly better control even).
You wonder why Mauer isn't hitting as well this year?
Last year he had Mike Redmond to back him up, a competent catcher that hit .290 and could drive the ball to the gaps. This year he has Drew Butera backing him up, a competent catcher that hits .208 with no significant power. This means Mauer feels pressure to play all the time, and to DH when he’s not catching. Result: nagging injuries to his hip that are keeping Joe Mauer from staying relatively fresh over a very long season.
Putting Wilson Ramos in as backup changes that equation radically. Ramos offers a power-hitting backup catcher that’s roughly equivalent to Butera defensively. Get Joe Vavra to tutor Ramos extensively on how to lay off or hit curve balls, and you might just have the answer at backup that keeps Joe Mauer from wearing out half way through the season. Would that help the team? I think so.
This is why you don’t trade Ramos, at least not this year. The Twins need a good bat as well as a good glove to back up Joe Mauer and make the offense really produce runs. Then, maybe trade for a slightly lesser star pitcher like Oswalt or Haren, and keep Ramos here, for now.
The fixes to make this team better should not cost us Wilson Ramos.
In addition to the fact
That he hit nowhere near .290 last year.
by JTW on Jul 6, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Other than getting the facts wrong
and making a highly speculative logical leap to an improper conclusion, the analysis is spot on.
by That'sWhatSheSaid on Jul 6, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Not exactly
Redmond was terrible last year (forget hitting .290 – he didn’t even slug .290), and during the pennant run in September he wasn’t even Mauer’s primary backup – that was Jose Morales, who’s still in the Twins system. Mauer virtually never got days off last year, either – he started all but one game in July, all but one game in August, and all but three games in June. The presence of a good backup is not Mauer’s problem, at least in comparison to last year.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
I said above Hicks was slightly overrated
But the love that Ramos receives from Twins fans is completely over the top. People act as though he’s an A- prospect. He’s a B- (maybe a straight B). The difference in Ramos as the backup C versus Morales as the backup catcher is not substantial. We can estimate the difference in defense as a backup catcher to be 5 runs. Offensively, Morales might be 3 runs better.
Are we really going to refuse to trade Ramos during the trade season because he might be a 3 run upgrade over Morales over the next 1.5 seasons?
I CAN"T BELIEVE THE VOTING IN THIS THREAD
trading Ramos and Hicks for 2 months of Cliff Lee is tooooo much
Why on Earth would you trade your 2 Most dissapointing top prospects when their trade Value is DOWN? ???
why not trade Joe Benson, Ben Revere, Kyle Gibson, even Angel Morales, and others when they’re trade value is High
it makes no sense to me why we’d trade Both Hicks and Ramos in 1 single deal when they’re both only going to get better from here on out, we’re hurting our trade value big time IMO…..
Wow Blackburn makes nearly identical money as Baker does now....
by SteveHoffmanSlowey on Jul 6, 2010 5:06 PM EDT reply actions
Or
the flipside is, they are prospects showing their true colors, meaning their busts.
Again, a three-month rental plus two high draft picks
I started to compile a list of prospects who were drafted above the expected level and I didn’t get too far. Plouffe, Perkins, Waldrop, Parmalee, Hicks, Gibson and Wimmers. That’s about it. Every other prospect in the system was either drafted at or below the compensation area or else they were undrafted. There have been some busts in the sandwich round. Henry (Extra Mayo) Sanchez is the biggest name that comes to mind. Shooter is borderline. But there are also a lot of good prospects drafted in that round or later. Joe Benson was a second rounder, e.g.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Here's the problem..
Everyone who wants to deal pitching, of course thats what we’d want to deal. We have a plethora of P’s to deal.
But Seattle doesn’t want pitching. They want two bats at least. If your putting more then one pitcher in a deal, its a waste of time even hoping.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
