A Case for an Ace OR Why Souhan makes me crazy
I've been away from a computer but I'm still seething about Souhan. On the pre-pregame radio show before Friday's game on 1500, they were talking about the Twin's playoff chances and they got into the old three-man rotation discussion about how power pitching wins playoffs. Fine, whatever, probably some legitimate truth to that argument. Whoever Souhan was talking to asked him about the ace of the staff and Souhan said it should be Pavano but he hasn't looked good lately and he hasn't been missing as many bats as usual. I'll agree he hasn't looked great his last couple of starts (15 hits!) but his K/9 has increased from June (3.83) to July (4.98) to August (6.04). Then Souhan said: And Baker isn't ready for it either. I don't know anyone who would argue that Baker is in line to be the ace of the staff. Ever.
And excuse me, Mr. Souhan. No mention of Liriano?
When he did mention Liriano later in the interview, it was only to say that he also hasn't looked good as of late and that he's not a big game pitcher, that he seems to always choke when going up against other aces.
(Side note: If being a big game pitcher makes you an ace, maybe our ace has been Blackburn)
I think Souhan's an idiot. But he did get me interested. Is Liriano not a big game pitcher?
All these stats are coming from Fangraphs. Fangraphs is great. There should be a T-shirt in the Twinkie Town store about how great it is. Twinkie Town [hearts] Fangraphs. First a note on leverage situations, then on pitching against aces.I'm not entirely sure how they figure out leverage situations, but I'm happy to blindly accept the math, because it means I don't have to do it myself.
Here are Liriano's advanced splits based on leverage:
| Season | Split | K/9 | BB/9 | K/BB | HR/9 | AVG | WHIP | BABIP | LOB% | FIP | xFIP |
|---|
| 2010 | Low Leverage | 10.18 | 2.71 | 3.75 | 0.14 | .243 | 1.21 | .345 | - - - | 2.07 | 2.84 |
| 2010 | Medium Leverage | 9.80 | 3.46 | 2.83 | 0.24 | .253 | 1.34 | .349 | - - - | 2.58 | 3.12 |
| 2010 | High Leverage | 7.45 | 0.93 | 8.00 | 0.00 | .306 | 1.34 | .384 | - - - | 2.06 | 3.05 |
SAMPLE SIZE WARNING! Innings/ERA per leverage situation: Low - 66.1/1.22; Medium - 75.1/4.54; High - 9.2/10.24
First of all: That DAMN BABIP! And forty points higher in High Leverage situations. Which reflects in the AVG column, which, I would imagine, reflects in the runs column. Secondly: I assume that high leverage situations increase as the game goes on, which should correlate with things like Liriano's pitch count. So maybe he's worn down by the time he gets into high leverage situations. Thirdly, remember when he struck out all those guys with the bases loaded? That was great.
But fourthly, and most interesting to me, check out his walk rate. I have to assume that some of his success in other situations, or his higher K/9 rate, for instance, comes from throwing pitches that might get called balls, getting hitters to chase. So in high leverage situations is he just throwing the ball over the plate more? Is that part of the problem? If high leverage situations are mostly with the bases loaded, then it makes sense he'd be afraid to walk guys. But is it better to walk a run in then give up a bases loaded hit?
I don't really know the answer to any of these questions, I just think it's interesting information. His stats seemed to point to a good deal of bad luck in high leverage situations, along with a lower K/9 rate and based on the walk rate, possibly a higher percentage of pitches thrown over the plate. I would conclude that based on the sample size and the balance of poor luck and pitcher controlled decisions, you could make the argument either way that Liriano is or isn't an big game, big situation pitcher. And depending on how much weight you put on FIP and xFIP, it sure looks like he's the same pitcher in all situations.
Now let's look at Liriano by matchup. Defining an ace obviously isn't an exact science, but I'm gonna pick it based on whether he's up against the number one or two guy in a rotation, since sometimes those slots are interchangeable (Liriano v. Pavano, anyone?). But even then it's a tricky breakdown. Early in the season he faced Verlander and J. Guthrie, both guys I would call "the aces of the staff", but clearly two different pitchers. I mean, I would take Verlander every time over Guthrie. But for the sake of the argument, they both count as ACE matchups, whereas Liriano's two starts against David Huff would not count.
Here's the list of Liriano's starts, team followed by matchup followed by W/L/ND followed by the all-knowing WPA.
@ChW - Danks: ND, -.159
BOS - Wakefield: W, .350
CLE - Huff: W, .368
@DET - Verlander: W, .554
@CLE - Huff: W, .113
BAL - Guthrie: L, -.221
@NYY - Pettitte: L -.029
@BOS - Lester: L, -.199
NYY - Pettitte: ND, .155
@SEA - Fister: W, .050
@OAK - Cahill: ND, .342
ATL - Hudson: W, .417
COL - Jiminez: L, -.030
@MIL - Parra: L, -.122
DET - Bonderman: L, -.284
TBR - Davis: ND, .273
@DET - Verlander: L, -.365
ChW - Floyd: W, .288
CLE - Westbrook: W, .310
@KC - Greinke: W, .101
SEA - French: W, .407
@CLE - Gomez: ND, -.225
@ChW - Floyd: W, .150
ChW - Floyd: ND, -.266
That's 24 starts at a 11-7 clip and a 5.5 WAR. Breakdown the starts, I would say Verlander, Guthrie, Lester, Hudson, Jiminez, Westbrook, and Greinke are aces. I also think you could put Danks in there, mostly because it's pretty tough to say who the Chicago ace is, as it's a pretty even keel and seems to change from week to week. Floyd is pretty tough and Pettitte as well (or should I just say the Yankees?), but let's cut it off at Danks. That's 9 starts out of 24 against top staff starters. That's a bunch. Liriano breaks down to to 4-4 with a WPA that works out to a POSITIVE .408. Not too shabby. Also interesting is that Liriano's best and worst starts of the season both came against Verlander. He made Greinke look like a chump. When he beat Hudson, Hudson pitched a complete game. That game against Jiminez? Liriano's line: 7 IP, 5 H, 3 ER, 3 BB, 6 Ks. Jiminez's line: 8 IP, 8 H, 1 ER, 2 BB, 4 Ks. Pretty close right? Only three times this season did he not make it out of the fifth: against Verlander (1.2), Lester (4.2), and some guy named Gomez (4.2).
So what does it all mean!?!
I think it means that everybody has off days and sometimes those days are against the best and sometimes they're against guys you've never heard off.
But Souhan, if you're listening: I want Liriano pitching the first game of the ALDS. I want him pitching against C.C. in Yankee Stadium. I'd prefer him pitching at Target Field, but I wish the Twins could play all their games at home ...
One last thing. If the playoffs started today Liriano's line against pitchers he could face in the post-season:
1-1, 4 G, 28 IP, 2.25 ERA, 1.04 WHIP, 11.25 K/9, 0.96 BB/9
I'll take it.
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nice.
My life's goal: to force fischean itno using her moderator powers
by montanatwinsfan on Aug 22, 2010 3:22 PM EDT reply actions
Great post
Liriano’s been struggling a bit, but his out against the Chisox last week @ the Cell was some of the ballsiest pitching of the year. A huge game as it turned, if he’d have folded in those situations we’d have ended up going 3-3 against the Sox in that stretch as opposed to 4-2. That’s an ace, I don’t care if he’s had a few bad outings. He was also coming off of a 21 straight scoreless stretch not too far back.
Good in-depth analysis
It usually doesn’t take that much work to show that Souhan’s an idiot.
great read thanks!
i love when people prove souhan wrong
"Brian Cardinal left Purdue being the only Boilermaker to receive both the "Mr. Hustle" Award and the "Courage" Award four years in a row"
"Not a big game pitcher"
I like that Souhan makes that claim despite the fact that Liriano has never even had the opportunity to start in a playoff game, and he only once has started games during a pennant race (2008 – he was hurt in 2006 and in the bullpen in 2009). So, basically, he’s basing this on… a 2-3 record in September of 2008? Great – glad we cleared that up.
I’m gonna say that I don’t even mind a ton that Liriano’s high-leverage splits are bad, partially because of the sample size concerns, and partially because if he does well enough in the low and medium situations, he cam completely avoid high-leverage situations by making sure the other team can’t make it a close game. Also, I’m really curious what exactly “high leverage” entails – if it’s “runners on in a close game”, for example, that’s unfair to the pitcher, because pitchers are generally worse with runners aboard because of the stretch and defensive positioning, and of course more runs will score when there are runners on base.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
WAR and WPA and WPA/LI.
First: the broad points (Souhan is an idiot, Liriano is fine against aces) are solid.
I’m not sure what’s meant by “all knowing WPA”. It’s a good retrospective value measure (and as such it’s fine if you want to analyze how Liriano already pitched in certain games [e.g. versus other teams’ aces] in the past). But it’s a situation-rooted metric bound up with all sorts of things of dubious repeatability, so in terms of predicting Liriano’s future performance it might not “know” as much as some other metrics. (I’m just clarifying as regards “all knowing”, not suggesting the OP doesn’t know this.)
As regards the subject at hand, one thing WPA (which is rooted in situational performance) does tell us here is that Liriano has been if anything worse in the clutch. His WPA/LI (Win Probability Added given a neutral context for each game event) is 2.40, versus his regular WPA of 1.98, for a clutch metric of -0.45 (i.e. not clutch). Of course, there’s massive debate as to how much predictive value any clutch metric has, and given that the basis of fangraphs Clutch number (i.e. WPA) sees “singles” and “doubles”, not “groundballs/line drives/etc.”, it’s as inherently flawed as a “lookahead” as straight WPA, even with context removed.
Re: BeefMaster’s question, Leverage Index is based on base-runners/outs/score situation. Tom Tango came up with it and it’s the opposite of oversimplified generic late/close analysis. Baseball Reference says:
Leverage Index
Within a season, there are plays that are more pivotal than others. We attempt to quantify these plays with a stat called leverage index (LI). LI looks at the possible changes in win probability in a give situation and situations where dramatic swings in win probability are possible (runner on second late in a tie game) have higher LI’s than situations where there can be no large change in win probability (late innings of a 12-run blowout).
The stat is normalized so that on average the leverage is 1.00. In tense situations, the leverage is higher than 1.00 (up to about 10) and in low-tension situations the leverage is between 0 and 1.0.
The point about pitchers in general being worse with runners with runners on is a good one, although the reasons cited aren’t necessarily the only/main ones. That is, if you’re pitching in a manner such that you’re allowing baserunners, you’re less likely to be pitching well in general, thus you’re likely to pitch worse than “normal” with baserunners, defense/stretch notwithstanding.
All knowing
It was meant to be sarcastic. I like advanced metrics a lot, but I’m kind of amazed at how much credit some of them get. It seems like they’re all situational in some way or another.
Also, thanks for the clarification on Leverage Index.
Situational
Well, WAR or FIP don’t care where or when your Ks or BBs or Home Runs come — a K is a K, a HR is a HR, etc — whereas WPA will KILL a pitcher who gives up a grand slam with a 2 run lead late and penalize him hardly at all for giving up a solo home run with a 7 run lead. (Thus the WPA/LI number which removes the difference in leverage in situations like that and gives you the Clutch number). So Win Probability Added clearly is a situational metric relative to Fielding Independent Pitching or Wins Above Replacement.
by tobynotjason on Aug 24, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Touche
I totally blanked when thinking about the Indians. I forgot Carmona. I would have put Westbrook as their number two.
Side note: Hard to believe the Indians had C.C. and Cliff Lee – I understand rebuilding, but they look like they’re just giving away good players for … what?
I've wondered that too
There is quite a vocal disdain among Tribe fans towards the front office for auctioning off so many fantastic players. It doesn’t make any sense, seeing the long list of names that have departed. At least the M’s Lee trade made sense this year because he was going to be a free agent soon and they clearly needed specific players to rebuild with.
by MarshalltheIrish on Aug 24, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
For great analysis and epic Souhan bitchslap.
by MarshalltheIrish on Aug 24, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions

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