Defending Gardy (not that he needs it)
Rob Neyer adds to Joe Posnanski's Gardy love
over 1 year ago
Anelle
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Gardy for the Hall of Fame
I had never thought of that…he needs a World Series win or two for that, though, amongst a few more winning seasons.
But to see his face on a plaque…awesome, but surreal.
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 18, 2010 10:26 PM EDT reply actions
That struck me too.
People would be buying that tart cherry juice by the bucketload!
Ultimately, managers do so many things that aren’t measurable, I don’t think we can really get a great grasp on how good they are. You just end up going by win/loss record, which is pretty great for Gardy, but really, judging a manager by wins and losses makes about as much sense (or even less) as judging pitchers that way. A bad manager with great talent is going to look pretty good. That said, as far as I can tell, Gardy seems like a good manager overall. (but we might as well require him to win a few world series before we put him in the HOF)
I think judging a manager by wins and losses makes a lot more sense than judging any player by wins and losses. In the end, their only goal is to get enough wins to make the playoffs, and then to win as many playoff games as possible.
So, while they need to have a lot of different skills to do so, and there are certainly different approaches for different teams (whether it be finding a way to manage a team full of stars with competing egos, or building a tight clubhouse full of stand-up guys), getting wins is still the final measure of performance for managers.
I know a lot of team success depends on the front office. But managers in baseball work more closely with the FO than coaches in any other sport do. And when looking over many seasons, it’s not too hard to see which managers have over-performed or underperformed with the talent they are given.
I hadn’t ever thought about Gardy’s HOF credentials before now either. But he has been winning with the same club for quite a few years now, which is certainly worthy of some recognition.
At least there aren't nutball criteria for what a win or loss is.
That makes it somewhat better than pitchers IMO.
Woah. Wow.
I guess he HAS led a lot of very good, and ofter surprisingly good, teams, huh?
That’d be a crazy treat – Gardy in the Hall. Wow.
That first line was how I felt too when I read the end of the article
I think as Twins fans we’ve gotten so used to judging him intensely in every way and expecting so much (especially with all the playoff failures) that it’s easy to forget just how excellent he’s been in numerous ways. The HOF is certainly a possibility.
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 19, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm...
{Someone close to the Twins] insists that the Twins win DESPITE Gardy not BECAUSE of Gardy. And you know what? It could be true.
But you know what else? They sure do keep on winning despite him.
I’ll never understand the Gardy haters, but I’ve noticed a lot of people think they could manage a baseball team better from their Lazy-boy recliner, no matter which manager you’re talking about.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 18, 2010 11:29 PM EDT reply actions
He makes some inexplicable moves
I think he’s done a good job overall. But I understand why the haters feel the way they do. It’s hard to watch him bring in the same pitcher every day for a month when he hasn’t gotten an easy out the whole time, and he’s given up runs in every outing. (Guerrier, 2008)
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That's the thing
Gardy’s weaknesses are in plain sight, while his strengths are not at all visible. If only he could learn a semblance of in-game skills.
A question (answer freely if you please)
Why do baseball managers get criticized the most out of the major sports?
by TwinkieinHawaii on Sep 19, 2010 1:45 AM EDT reply actions
They do?
Where you in MN during the Denny Green era?
And people have been saying Fire Chili since his first season.
by clutterheart on Sep 19, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
People were calling for Denny Green’s head even when he was winning the division every year. Ironically, he was a lot like Gardy – he was great with personnel management and fostered a really close locker room, but he was a horrific game manager.
I think football coaches have, by far, the most gameday responsibility and the most to do with their teams’ success or failure. Baseball managers make a lot of decisions, but a lot of them are obvious things that anyone could make. Off the field, I think baseball managers probably do a little more personality management, just because they have fewer players to deal with, and the football players work far more closely with their position coaches and coordinators.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Gardy has always said (Tom Kelly too)
That it’s not the on-field aspect of management that’s hard, but the off-field stuff. Injuries, roster moves, team morale, personal problems, clubhouse dynamics….the little stuff is what gives you the headaches. This is the side of Gardy that we don’t see, that he get no credit for. We only see the tip of the iceberg.
The beard abides.
by Jason Kubel's Beard on Sep 19, 2010 9:24 AM EDT reply actions
Gardy can't hit a triple
like Tolbert can. Or make a barehanded pick-up like LNP. Or K the side like Capps. We rip all these guys when they suck but when they come through big we love them again.
If Gardy makes a decision that doesn’t work out we call him stupid, and when the decision works out it was just expected. He doesn’t get a chance to “hit a homerun” with a move he makes.
Frankly I’m tired of how many people take advantage of the ease with which to criticize from their BarcoLounger.
Same goes with Gordo and Gladden, Dick-n-Bert, and Bill Smith. They all do a pretty damn good job.
Ullger, however…
by z-squad on Sep 19, 2010 9:51 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
New Fan Post (my first time) Team War, Twins are best
After reading Joe Poz’s take on WAR i decided to do a quick follow-up to Dave Cameron’s article about a month or so ago on Twins leading baseball in WAR… Link includes updated chart…. Also the Twins are among the top 5 in WAR value surplus to Salary YTD.
http://www.twinkietown.com/2010/9/19/1697550/twins-lead-baseball-in-war-source
You won't get any commission.
So no need to advertise.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 19, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah sorry,
What I should have said was “Welcome to TT,” I shouldn’t made that comment.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 19, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the fan post!
I’m a big stat head, so I’m always glad to see more statistically inclined talk around here.
And no problem with a bit of gentle “advertising”. Otherwise Fanposts usually go unnoticed.
"Unnoticed?"
You mean that big sidebar on the right?
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 19, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, because most people notice and read those.
Take a look – The large majority of commenters on the main threads never comment there.
I've been here a while now
If it’s good, people post on it.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 19, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to say
The main space is for game threads and feature stories by the senior writers, primarily. They are supposed to get most of the comments. If a fan post is well done, Jesse often promotes it to the front page, and it will get comments. But people comment on well-written fan posts that are not promoted.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I comment more on fanposts
Than on game threads. I don’t even read the game threads.
I have no doubt that his off the field management skills are something else
But his ability to manage games leaves somethign to be desired far more than we’d like… Notice that neither Neyer nor Posnanski bothers to mention examples like the 2004 ALDS (or countless other examples such as that), which everyone except Gardy was able to figure out.
The man can manage a clubhouse better than anyone… but someone else needs to be managing games…
by diehardtwinsfan on Sep 19, 2010 10:58 AM EDT reply actions
Soon to be 6 AL Central championships in 9 years
Despite (except this year) having one of the lowest team payrolls in the MLB.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
"Dear AJ, That facial hair is not making you less douchey. Love, Batgirl" -TwinsBatgirl
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 19, 2010 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
He said it better, but
this is exactly what I have been saying about Gardy for years. After all the runner up MOY awards, can he at least get one? HOF a little premature, but can we start with one Manager of the Year? I say it is his turn.
Gardy Should Have Won MoY In 2006
That year, they gave Leyland Manager of the Year and Terry Ryan Executive of the Year. It struck me as completely backward: Dombrowski made some great free agent acquisitions to build the Tigers (Ordonez, Polanco, etc.) while Ryan’s big moves that offseason were Tony Batista (who didn’t last through March) and Rondell White (who hit around the Mendoza Line). The Twins were in third place and 10 or so back at the All-Star Break, and still came back and won the division. It really should have been Gardenhire as MoY and Dombrowski for EoY, given that Dombrowski did a lot more to help his team, and Gardy won despite Ryan’s lack of help.
So here’s hoping Gardy gets his due this year.
I'm a Gardy fanboi
I first got into the Twins back in the Gene Mauch era and it’s always grated on me that he’s proclaimed as a managing genius while he guided the Twins to a steaming pile of mediocrity. My first fanpost here was comparing Gardy’s record after the 2006 season to other Twins/Senators managers and opining (especially after the dreadful years of the mid and late 90s) that he just might be the team’s best manager ever. While I think he needs some postseason success to have an unquestioned claim to the title, he already has 8 winning seasons to Kelly’s 5 and just 1 losing season to Kelly’s 11.
The only stat that counts is W
He's really good
Why?
Because his players are always prepared and ready to play
Because he recognizes pitching talent and knows how to coach it and bring it out in order to assemble a bullpen (See Jesse Crain for this season’s example, LaTroy Hawkins and Dennys Reyes for past examples)
Because he uses his bench
Because he is patient with talent; a baseball season is a marathon, not a sprint
Because he knows how to adjust on the fly
Because he treats players with respect yet makes sure they are accountable
Because he really isn’t afraid to play rookies if they are ready to play, the Twins always have a young roster
Because he uses the running game just enough to make the other team respect it
Because he knows the “hot hand” is often about health
Because he makes adjustments and wins ballgames – look at his record down the stretch
Combine TK (2 titles) and Gardy (Great WP%) and you have a HoF manager.
Gardy good, bad, ugly
Good: He gets his team ready to play the game the right way
Bad: He doesn’t give young guys a chance until he’s forced to
Ugly: He plays favorites
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Bad: He doesn’t give young guys a chance until he’s forced to
Ugly: He plays favorites
Or you could say he’s promoting a clubhouse where you have to earn your stripes. Once you’ve done that, you’re given more leeway but expected to be an example for the younger guys.
Gardy will stick up for his veterans when they struggle. But this team has absolutely relied on young guys stepping up.
I never thought about
How losing Nathan and J-Mo has altered the “higher payroll = higher expectactions” argument.
W/O those two Twins have a payroll that is right around the 16th highest in the leauge.
"I think that not based on what we see but what we can’t see."
does this guy have a vote? that is some fuzzy logic.
I like gardy. i think he is easily the best manager in the division. but no one does more with less than joe maddon. its not even close IMO.
and you can put it on the boaaaaaard YES, HELL YES
I don't know,
there’s a difference between not having a lot of money and not having a lot of talent. The Rays have a ton of talent. Some of the past Twins teams with low payrolls were similar. Again, I think it’s really hard to tease out the contributions of a manager in situations like that.
One way is to look at how well players did after leaving
Guys like Mientievicz, Jones, Kielty, Guzman, Rivas, Milton, Guardado, and Hawkins had their moments, but were far less effective after they left the team. Koskie was hurt, but, when healthy, did not play as well after he left.This suggests that the coaching staff helped them play better when they were here.
Players in the Gardy era to continue to play well consistently after leaving the Twins include Hunter, Lohse, Garza, Ortiz, Bartlett and Pierzinski. OK, you know what? Gardy had good talent. Never mind.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Line up the stars:
Mauer
Santana
Morneau
Nathan
Hunter
Koskie
Radke
How many teams have had that kind of firepower over the last decade, regardless of payroll? These are not “overacheivers,” they’re first-class stars. Delivering this talent, cheaply, seems like it’s more on the front office, scouting, and development than Gardy. Again, not to say he’s not a good manager, just…it’s hard to tell how good.
Only one ace pitcher there
What the Twins are really good at is getting the most out of their pitching. Radke was good but Santana is really the only dominant starting pitcher in that list.
Other examples – look what other players have done before they got here. Dennys Reyes was awful, Carl Pavano was injured or bleh, Jim Thome was sliding down in production, Ron Mahay was never more than mediocre.
I’d give Gardenhire some credit for development. Santana, Hunter, Koskie and others developed quite a bit at the major league level.
the rays have a lot of 3 tool players
who lack hitting for average and hitting for power. the twins have a lot of 4 tools players, who lack only speed. i would rate the two pitching staffs about equal.
and you can put it on the boaaaaaard YES, HELL YES
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