Lonestar Ball: "It wasn't interference"
They quote the rule book. And maybe they're right. But to play devil's advocate:
1. Marquez apparently DID see the play, otherwise he couldn't have called it. He saw it out of the corner of his eye probably, but he saw it.
2. While Anderson didn't grab Young around the waist and guide him back to third base, touching a player (even on the fingertips) tells that player exactly what you want them to do.
3. Any rule that says "In the judgment of the umpire" really leaves a pretty wide berth for interpretation...of the umpire.
4. Therefore, Marquez could have interpreted the touching of the fingers as "assistance".
Imagine you're in a room without light. Somebody, by lightly touching the pads of their fingers to yours, can tell you where they want you to go with just a moment's pressure. That's assistance. And in full daylight, when you're trying to figure out where the ball is and whether you need to hustle back to third base, a touch like that can help.
Did it help? I don't know. It could. And really, that's the core of this matter--whether that touch, no matter how light, could have helped.
It was a questionable call, there's no doubt about it. But when a rule is open to an umpire's interpretation, you know what the best course of action is? Don't touch the third base coach, and better yet don't put yourself in a position where you let the umpire think you've touched the third base coach.
At the end of the day, it's a crappy way to end the game. I'd much prefer to have ended it straight up in the next at-bat. But this kind of thing happens, and a play like this wouldn't have been this crucial if the thousands of other unique events before it played out a different way. If the Twins came through with more runs in the sxith, or if C.J. Wilson's command didn't suck, this event may never have taken place.
Let's move on.
over 1 year ago
Jesse
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The rule states
In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching
or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or
first base.
By touching, or holding the runner.
It’s right there written in the rules, it was a tough call for them, and a very close one at that, but it’s not a blown call IMO.
It’s just a tough call that could’ve gone either way, but it went ours
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Sep 5, 2010 8:02 PM EDT reply actions
The rule is slightly ambiguous
I interpreted it to mean that “touching or holding the runner” was the definition of physical assistance.
"If the world were perfect, it wouldn't be." - Yogi Berra
What on earth did we do to you guys
to cause this madness?
Minnesota is a house of horrors for the Rangers.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
Keeping in mind
we’re still in a tight race. and we’re watching Chicago beat a bunch of teams that don’t give a shit anymore, and then get to listen about how they’re the best damn team in the world, and they’re SO going to overtake us, even though they shit their pants when they play us.
And you guys are still, what, 8 games up?
Sorry, it’s been a rough day, I needed to vent
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Sep 5, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Chicago is an annoying team
I have no idea how they keep winning, but I wish we’d do more of it.
"If the Saints can reach the Superbowl, the Rangers can reach the World Series." - PhilKid
The Animated Ballpark in Arlington
I guess
Target Field is to you guys what that wind-tunneled, low-porched, house near the River Styx new Yankee Stadium is to us.
Although we DO have one win there! :)
Honestly, you guys will be fine. You still have Cliff Lee and probably the meatiest lineup in baseball, as well as the likely AL MVP. Hope you finally get your first playoff series win this October en route to an ALCS meeting with us!
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 5, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Drew Pearson
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Sep 7, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not sure if I should rec that reference or flag it.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 7, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Terrible call
Do you think the Twins would have protested if the call hadn’t been made? No way. It’s like the call on Casilla the other night by Joe West on the DP ball. If the Tiger runner at second had been called out, the Tigers wouldn’t have protested that either.
Only this call was even more blatantly worse. Something the umpire has to pull out of their arse.
Correct call
It’s in the rule book, and is up to ump interpretation. You can argue whether the call should be made in that situation, but the ump WAS correct.
I stood where no man goes, above the din I rose!....Once I rose above the noise and confusion, just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion.
by TGPackersTwins19 on Sep 5, 2010 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
as a twin fan
i’d be ok with the call
but as a ranger fan i just am a little upset. watching the replay, there is slight incidental contact, but he didn’t assist young in returning to the base. he was already stopping and the contact didn’t help him. i’m biased so i’m upset.
but i certainly see how twins fans support the call.
"Please don't hand Jim Knox your children."
- Josh Lewin
It was a good call
But I don’t necessarily support it. I would rather not need a controversial call to help the Twins win.
I stood where no man goes, above the din I rose!....Once I rose above the noise and confusion, just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion.
by TGPackersTwins19 on Sep 5, 2010 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
It feels “awkward.” Weird to see the guys celebrate casually while Ron Washington totally flipped out.
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 5, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions
It is weird.
I’d rather just win outright, than due to a technicality.
"Don't take life for granted, because tomorrow isn't promised to any one of us." -Kirby Puckett
by less cowbell, more 'neau on Sep 5, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
I stood where no man goes, above the din I rose!....Once I rose above the noise and confusion, just to get a glimpse beyond this illusion.
by TGPackersTwins19 on Sep 5, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You're putting it on the wrong guy.
It’s the coach’s job not to touch the runner, not to come near the runner, and not to allow the runner to come near him. The runner’s going in a predefined path and essentially has the right of way. As a third base coach, you need to be well out of that path at all times.
In any case, we’ve dropped what, four games this year due to 3B coach incompetence? Nice to get one back.
It was funny reading the guys at LSB insult their 3rd base coach
Sounds like they’ve had similar problems.
Can you imagine?
How ape shit we’d be going right now if it were Ulger in the same situation. “Blown” or “correct” call. I know I would be pissed off he was even that close to the runner.
Let's Go Twins!
Minnesota Wild Off-season: In Fletch We Trust.
chickenshit call
this is just the latest gaffe by marquez at 3b this year at target field. i hated winning like that.
and you can put it on the boaaaaaard YES, HELL YES
Well...
If that is the case of Phil Cuzzi history repeating itself for the Twins, I’ll take it.
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 5, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody likes winning like that
but everyone DESPISES losing like that. I would have rather let Cruz at bat and let that determine the game’s outcome.
4 one-run games with Texas in two series! I wouldn’t mind a rematch in October knock on wood
Stop knockin' that wood!
Wait…I’ve mentioned it a few times myself…fingers crossed.
by MarshalltheIrish on Sep 5, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It's funny how people at lonestar ball are saying the ump didn't see the contact
Of course he saw the contact – even if it was out of the corner of his eye
Do you think he didn’t see any contact and then turns around and says he’s out for interference just because he feels like it?
Contact was made and the correct call was made – if the tables were turned and this happened to the twins I would be upset too, but not because it was the wrong call – just the fact that it’s a crappy situation in which to win/lose a ball game.
by Loki The Viking God on Sep 5, 2010 10:34 PM EDT reply actions
The rule is no contact. They made contact. Ergo, correct call
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That's ignoring the discretion of the umpire.
It’s interference if:
In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base.
To me, there are two questions. First can the umpire call interference for the kind of incidental contact that occurred here? By the rule, he can, if in his judgment the coach assists the runner. So it was within Marquez’s role as umpire to call Young out.
But the next question is: should this have been called as interference? That’s where I disagree with the call. In Marquez’s judgment, the Rangers’ third base coach assisted Young. But after seeing their coach barely touch hands with Young, I don’t see how this possibly assisted Young. So even though the umpire can make this call, I still think it was a bad call.
so you can run and tell that, run and tell that, run and tell that
homeboy, home, home, homeboy
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Sep 6, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Judgement
If that’s assisting contact in Marquez’s judgment, then I don’t want him exercising his judgment in 100 miles of me, because his judgment is fatally flawed. That shit is dangerous!
Nyjer Morgan was called out on this
when he ran into the catcher and completely missed the plate. He went on to “incidentally” run into the runners that had come in before him before he ran back to tag the plate. It doesn’t matter how you interpret the contact…it’s a rule.
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
huge difference
While I think both were correct calls. Nyjer Morgan was grabbed and pushed back to home plate by Pudge. There was no clear grab and push on the Young play. Either way, Twins win and lets hope they are ready for KC.
by NYCisTwinsTerritory on Sep 6, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Bad Call
I’m a huge Twins fan… I was at the game… I was PISSED that ti was becoming that close after being a leisurely win (especially with how the Bitch Sox annoyingly game back on the Red Sox and won)… and I still think it was a pretty lucky break for the Twins. Sure, he made contact, but to have him actually call that was pretty lucky on the Twins part. Rangers fans have a total right to feel screwed out of Neli’ Cruz’s shot at the bat, I think.
It’s one to gobble up and never speak of again. The Twins really pulled a coup at home this series. Beating a very, very good team 3 straight with the pitching matchups they had. The Twins had their number 2, number, like, 6 or 7, and number, like, 10 starters on the mound in these games. And they won all 3. Not. Too. Shabby.
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
Exactly
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
It balances out
I know we had a similar situation earlier this year with the Mariners. You can argue whether or not this call was bad or not but every once in awhile the Umps make a call that determines the end of the game and it’s questionable or strange. This one came out well for the Twins and they’ve had other odd situations like this work against them. I truly think it all evens out in the end. It does suck to win like this though, but better to win like this than lose like this. Sorry Rangers fans.
Peyton's good but have you ever heard of Jeff George?
The call
maybe its because it happened in favor of the team I follow but I didn’t have a problem with this call, its in the rule book for a reason. Its like when there have been multiple hit by pitches and both sides get warned then a pitcher accidentally hits another batter and gets thrown out its just how the rule works. Theres a reason you never see this call, because most third base coaches are not standing that close to the running lane its on him to make sure he doesn’t interfere physically with the runner or fielder. Had this been on a inconsequential play you wouldn’t even be hearing about it. Young was coming hard around third and probably had a hard time seeing if Hudson got to that ball or not the coach yelling at him and hitting his hand sure as hell made him get back to the bag quick. If the rangers fans are so upset with their third base coach I have one I would like to trade them, he knows to stay the hell out of the way just not when to put a stop sign up to avoid a ridiculous waste of a scoring opportunity.
Not a tough call
The third base coach touched Michael Young.
Thus, Michael Young was out. Period.
There is no “it was accidental” excuse. If the third base (or first base) coach touches a runner, the runner is out.
Not the rule
The third base coach touched Michael Young. Thus, Michael Young was out. Period…If the third base (or first base) coach touches a runner, the runner is out.
That’s not the rule. IF that was the rule that any contact, the runner is out, you’d have a valid point.
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
+1
Lots of people are missing the “umpire’s discretion” part of the rule, which is (in my opinion) what makes this play a bad call.
so you can run and tell that, run and tell that, run and tell that
homeboy, home, home, homeboy
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Sep 6, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe the umpire's discretion
was that the umpire thought that the rule was contact = out.
That's not discretion.
That’s a misinterpretation. The rule is NOT contact = out, as some have said. The rule plainly allows contact and would have allowed the ump NOT to rule that this slight contact an out. The rule is not contact = out.
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
Why did he touch him?
To get his attention. Young was about to get trapped off third because he wasn’t looking at his third-base coach. So he got Young’s attention by reaching out and touching his hand. That was enough to get Young to stop and hustle back to the bag. It was a very close play at third. It would not have been close if the third base coach hadn’t touched Young, at least in the umpire’s estimation. I have to say I agree with him.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That's another way to describe...
… The play, not accurate though. In the actual play MY had already stopped and wash headed back to 3rd when the “incidental contact” occurred. BTW even the MN PBP guy described it as “incidental contact” but then the PBP guy concluded that “the rule is the rule” meaning that any contact even incidental contact is an automatic out. Sounds reasonable but that’s not the actual rule.
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
Either way though...
the Ranger 3rd base coach screwed up for having any contact. I disagree with call but the coach opened the door for that call once they touched.
"Don’t belittle entire fanbases or neighborhoods…simply because they are within proximity to some people who don’t operate (or look) the same way you do." - AndrewJStone 6/29/2010
That's where I'm at with this as well.
Not a good call, but if Anderson is where he’s supposed to be then there wouldn’t have been a situation to begin with.
This would make more sense
if either Marques or Tschida had actually known the rule. By their comments, it is clear they did not. That’s inexcusable.
Well...
Per the exchange in the first couple posts in this thread, I think you can make the “contact = out” argument. To restate, the rule is:
In the judgment of the umpire, the base coach at third base, or first base, by touching or holding the runner, physically assists him in returning to or leaving third base or first base.
The argument there was that “by touching or holding the runner” is the definition of “physically assist”, implying that any touching or holding (which would be redundant, but whatever) amounts to assisting the runner and therefore is interference.
I’m not saying I necessarily buy this, mind you (I’d probably lean toward Lone Star Ball’s interpretation, if for no other reason than to avoid silly technicality rulings like this one), although it’s a much more black-or-white interpretation and thus simpler for umpires to apply in practice.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
Tango had a discussion on his site
(Link)
I’m inclined to agree; I think it was a poor call.
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