Cardinals Sign Nick Punto
LNP Get Money, Get Paid... in St. Louis. (Twinkie Town joke writers quietly mourn, as now we have to write new jokes.)
over 1 year ago
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Yeah!
Now I don’t have to worry about my head exploding this year.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Not so fast
Last time I checked Matt Tolbert is still on the roster
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Jan 21, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
My head doesn't explode about Tolbert
He’s basically the same guy, except he plays good fundamental baseball. In particular, he can bunt, and he doesn’t slide head first needlessly and pointlessly, he doesn’t get caught in stupid run downs or trapped off bases, he doesn’t backhand balls hit right at him (or to his right), he makes contact when the situation calls for it. In general, he has no notion of playing for style points, which was 90% of Punto’s game. He is a hot dog who makes every play look more difficult than it is in order to worm his way into the crowd and his manager’s heart. It worked pretty well, because somehow the Twins gave a career 73 OPS+ hitter 2800 at bats.
Also, and this is the most important thing, Gardy thinks Tolbert is a utility player. But he loves Punto so much, he wants to watch hims start. Letting Gardy have Punto on his team is like giving an alcoholic the keys to the liquor cabinet.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
by cmathewson on Jan 21, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yep...
or a pair of scissors to a 4-year old.
I’m not bothered by Tolbert either, especially at 1/10th the cost.
I have a feeling that the Twin I will most hate in the next few years, easily, will be Drew Butera.
You know Pavstache will smite you for hating on Sweet Drew, right?
by twinscrazy_german on Jan 21, 2011 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
eh, not worried.
The power of Mauer trumps anything Pavstache has.
1/10th the cost?
If we’re paying Tolbert only $75,000, Matt should fire his agent!
I'm talking relative to what Nicky made the last 2 years.
Even this year, it’s still 1/3 the cost. $500K buyout.
Gardy thinks Tolbert is a utility player
Now he does. But with his first love gone will he may be on the rebound
"Baseball is the only major sport that appears backward in a mirror" ~George Carlin
by thewild_viking_twins on Jan 21, 2011 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
Quote of the offseason
Letting Gardy have Punto on his team is like giving an alcoholic the keys to the liquor cabinet.
Rec’d
:C
I know people here hated him, but I will always have a warm spot in my heart for Little Nicky Punto.
-Flip
Uh-oh
Has anyone heard from Gardy ? He probably shouldn’t be left alone today.
by archie2227 on Jan 21, 2011 2:12 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
he has only one song in his ipod today
THE END OF THE WORLD
Skeeter Davis – 1964
Why does the sun go on shining
Why does the sea rush to shore
Don’t they know it’s the end of the world
‘Cause you don’t love me any more
Why do the birds go on singing
Why do the stars glow above
Don’t they know it’s the end of the world
It ended when I lost your love
I wake up in the morning and I wonder
Why everything’s the same as it was
I can’t understand, no, I can’t understand
How life goes on the way it does
Why does my heart go on beating
Why do these eyes of mine cry
Don’t they know it’s the end of the world
It ended when you said goodbye
Why does my heart go on beating
Why do these eyes of mine cry
Don’t they know it’s the end of the world
It ended when you said goodbye
Generally
I’m not one for sandbagging online polls, but how is it that I’m the only one that voted for Punto screaming I LOVE YOU to Jimmers? link
Hahaha, because more people voted for "Nothing".
I will actually miss the headfirst slides into 1B…frustrating, but entertaining.
俳句！
True
simultaneous head explosions on Twinkie Town made those head first dives all the more fun!
Best day in Twins history!
soooooo happy that no-talent, “scrappy” piece of excrement is out of Gardy’s hands.
Now all we have to do is hope that somehow Butera gets replaced on the roster in the next couple of years.
by DJSkillz on Jan 21, 2011 2:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is the best news I've heard all week!
And the fact that my teammate/colleague at work is a huge Cards fan makes it all that much better!!!
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Jan 21, 2011 2:54 PM EST reply actions
But that's not the case
Punto is a fabulous utility player to have on the bench. He can play all IF positions well. He is a switch hitter who gets on base at a decent clip…for a utility man. He’s got reasonable speed. Used properly Punto can excel and be a positive force for any team. Gardy just misused him.
If the role of Punto is restricted to late inning defensive/base runner substitutions and starting one game a week to give a regular a day off, he’s a terrific cog that helps contending teams stay fresh while minimizing damage if a regular goes to the DL. Punto is the kind of guy who idealy NEVER sees more than 250 PA’s in a season. Again, Gardy misused him as Punto averaged 434 PA’s since 2005.
I wish Punto well. As a true utility man, he will thrive. We’ve seen first hand though that as a pseudo starter and especially a named starter, he will wallow.
Closers are paid for the postseason. They are relatively meaningless for the preceeding 162 games.
by PinkiePinkerton on Jan 21, 2011 4:16 PM EST up reply actions
I'll have what you're having
2800 plate appearances over 7 years does not spell bench player. Gardy started him most of the time he was here.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
Again, Gardy misused him as Punto averaged 434 PA’s since 2005.
And there is the problem. We can never trust that Gardy will change. Therefore, we must say goodbye to the little sparkplug.
He's getting older
His time in MLB is short. Better a year too early than a year too late.
Check out the pictures in the 2 posts below...
…then ask yourself if “fabulous utility players” do those sorts of things.
If you want to limit his number of plate appearances in order hide those holes in his game, good for you, but all you’re doing is lying to yourself about who he is. By calling him a utility player rather than a full-time player, all you’re doing is minimizing the amount of opportunities he has to show you who he really is. Why would you want a guy on your bench that you can’t trust to play full time?
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Jan 21, 2011 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
There are not that many starting caliber players in the league
The man has posted positive WAR’s the last three seasons at an average of about 1.5. He is better than replacement level, which is what most teams, even contenders, have on their bench. Very, very few teams have starting calibur players as backups.
I’ll ask you to prove me wrong. Go thru the roster of all 30 teams in MLB and use empirical evidence to demonstrate which ones have a better 4th infielder than LNP. You will not find many.
Here is an article from Fangraphs about this specific topic .
Closers are paid for the postseason. They are relatively meaningless for the preceeding 162 games.
by PinkiePinkerton on Jan 21, 2011 5:23 PM EST up reply actions
Link didn't work
I’ll just post for a paste.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/true-utility-nick-punto/
Closers are paid for the postseason. They are relatively meaningless for the preceeding 162 games.
by PinkiePinkerton on Jan 21, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
I think Punto is a case in point that FanGraphs WAR is broken
Last year, in particular, he was horrible. How a 69 OPS+ player who only played in 69 games could be a 1.4 WAR player is beyond me. He had the lowest fielding percentage on the team, and yet, FanGraphs has him as an 11 WAR defensive player. It’s nuts.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
yep...
I think they overvalue defense. Specifically with $ values as well. Punto was worth, according to FanGraphs, around $10M over the last 2 seasons.
There’s no way any reasonable team (ie the Twins) would pay him anything over $4M or so total for that time. And the actual market just gave him a measly $700K for his “skills”. Clearly there’s a flaw there.
This is a corrollary
To using xFIP to underrate pitchers. Every pitcher is slightly above average using Fangraphs WAR. Every middle infielder looks great.
can you imagine
the Twins paying LNP 10 million!?!?
the heads of every Twins fan would explode… MLB would take over the team for mismanagement…
Dude...
You are not seriously suggesting that we measure defense with fielding percentage, are you? Punto has consistently shown himself to be an elite defender, mostly because he has spectacular range – he gets to so many balls that he is still saving runs even if he makes more errors. Everyone raves about his defense, and the advanced metrics back it up. All the arguments for keeping JJ Hardy were based partially on how many runs he saved with his defense, too; I don’t get why the skepticism regarding those stats with Punto, other than that so many folks don’t like him.
Regarding what DJSkillz said, I think it’s certainly true that FanGraphs’ dollar values are pretty flawed for players who provide most of their value through their defense. It’s fairly obvious that defense is not valued as high on the open market as offense, especially when the player’s offense is particularly poor, like Punto’s. As for whether defense is actually that valuable in terms of wins (not dollar value), I’m content to defer to the folks who have studied the issue.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
No, it's just hard to believe....
…that a guy who was second on the team in errors and played about half the year could still have enough range to accumulate an 11 WAR defensively.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I have a theory
FanGraphs places too much emphasis on UZR in its WAR calculations, and UZR has a big flaw as it evaluates third basemen.
For a long time, I puzzled as to why Punto’s UZR as a second baseman or shortstop was good but not outstanding, yet his UZR at third was otherworldly. Part of that is he’s that much better than third basemen, I suspect. But did this otherworldliness really result in so many more outs for the Twins that it warrants an 11 WAR for half a season?
The conventional wisdom is you put your best defenders up the middle because they’ll get more chances. But Punto was much more valuable as a third baseman than he was at short or second, despite getting fewer chances. It just doesn’t add up.
Here’s the theory. When a third baseman creates an out on a ball in his zone, he gets credit for that out on face value. But when he creates an out on a ball outside his zone, he gets credit for the put times some mulptiplier. Take two typical plays for a third baseman:
1. The classic step-and-dive play towards the line. One of the toughest and most important plays a third baseman can make because it saves a double. Yet it’s in the third baseman’s zone, so he only gets credit for the play on face value.
2. The slow roller towards short that the third baseman cuts off in the hole and makes an out. This is one of the easiest out-of-range plays a third baseman can make. But it is made more often by fast quick guys than the typical third baseman who stands his ground and lets the shortstop handle it. Despite the relative ease with which a decent third baseman makes this play, he gets credit for the play times some multiplier because it is out of zone. But, the play is not really as important because it typically results in an out the shortstop handles if the third baseman fails to handle it. Worst case, it’s an infield single.
Nick Punto is not that good at plays like 1. because he’s short and he doesn’t have goalie-like reflexes. But he’s great at plays like 2 because he’s quick and fast. Also, it is worth noting that he played next to guys who played deep (Bartlett and Hardy) so he got a lot of those chances in front of the shortstop. UZR gave him more credit for less important, easier plays than he would have gotten had he made the more difficult, more important plays.
So his UZR at third was inflated. He was in fact about as good a fielder as a third baseman as he was at short or second, which is still pretty good—not otherworldly. But because he had fewer chances at third than he did at short or second, his WAR should have been lower at third than short or second.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
I'm buying that
good analysis. very convincing.
I'm not buying that
He was in fact about as good a fielder as a third baseman as he was at short or second, which is still pretty good—not otherworldly.
Punto’s career UZR/150 as a third baseman: 18.9
Punto’s career UZR/150 as a shortstop: 18.3
JJ Hardy’s career UZR/150 as a shortstop: 11.0
Regarding your theory on third base, that situation should have had an adverse affect on Bartlett and Hardy, yet their UZRs were not any lower when they played alongside Punto; in fact, Bartlett’s 2006 and 2007 were, by far, the best rates of his career.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
That actually makes sense
that situation should have had an adverse affect on Bartlett and Hardy, yet their UZRs were not any lower when they played alongside Punto; in fact, Bartlett’s 2006 and 2007 were, by far, the best rates of his career.
Bartlett and Hardy could afford to play deeper precisely because they had an above average third baseman next to them who took a lot of the slow rollers away. That, in turn, helped them get to more balls outside of their zone, and inflated their UZR.
You have to admit that a player gets more credit for the plays out of his zone than in his zone. That’s just part of the formula. Yet the play in front of the shortstop (outside his zone) is typically easier than the play down the line, which is in his zone. Hence, UZR tends to favor third basemen like Punto over, say, Gaetti, who was the best Twin I ever saw at covering the line, but was not as quick or fast as Punto in the hole.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
That's great.
Tony will probably have him pitching and playing right field.
Thank you St. Louis
I was really worried he wouldn’t get signed and he would wind up back in twinstripes. It just seemed inevitable.
Luckily, Smith had maxed out the payroll on Thome and Pavano, so thy just couldn’t afford LNP.
by AM. on Jan 21, 2011 3:13 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Punto
this move is like signing a free agent addition by subtraction. finally no more LNP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Just a temporary departure...
Gladden, Coomer and Hocking all left the Twins to finish their playing careers elsewhere and they are all back reporting for the Twins on the radio and TV.
If Gardy has anything to say about it, he won't be known as utility infielder Nick Punto, but
Future Manager Nick Punto
(head exploding time)
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Jan 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
Punto will be teaching future Twins
how to slide into first and how grittiness and getafteritness wins you division titles
Yay!
Ciao Punto, take your head first slides with you.
"Danny Valencia is a fricking stud! Hide your daughters!"
-Denard Span
Well, then
This makes me sad – I always liked the guy, and I still think he’d have been a fine upgrade over Matt Tolbert as well a decent bit of Casilla insurance (remember, Punto has been really good when taking over midseason for a guy who sucks, and there would’ve been pretty much zero chance of him being installed as the starter at the beginning of the season like everyone was so paranoid about).
On the plus side, there’s one less thing for cmathewson and I to disagree on.
"There are only two things that are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." - Albert Einstein
+1
This was a triumph
I'm making a note here - huge success
by what_would_gil_thorp_do on Jan 21, 2011 4:35 PM EST up reply actions
I disagree that he's an upgrade over Tolbert...
1) He’s hurt all the time.
2) He’s annoying as hell (I know, I know, not really a baseball argument on this part).
3) He’s a terrible baserunner and a worse bunter. And I’m not sure he’s a much better fielder at this point.
4) He’s getting older and declining while Tolbert still has some upside, though extremely limited. Punto had an OPS+ of 69 last year. Tolbert had an OPS+ of 82.
responses
1) PEDs will do that to you but when you are a superhero you gotta do what you gotta do
2) You are annoyed only b/c you secretly want to be Nick Punto
3) He could bunt better but he refuses to waste ABs with bunts when he has warning track power
4) Drinking unicorn blood will let you live forever, and Tolbert has a the upside of being Punto light, and uh… stats make my head hurt
I will never forget thee Punto!!!!!
We should have a memorial of all the best plays and jokes of Punto. I will always remember that grand slam he hit in 2004.
by LittleLad on Jan 21, 2011 4:45 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Oh yeah, Punto is the last of the pirañas from 2006.
by LittleLad on Jan 21, 2011 4:47 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Goodbye LNP
I agree that he has MLB skills as a utility infielder. His base running was usually pretty good. I blame that out against the Yankees on the third base coach. Why was he down hiding behind the catcher instead of near 3rd base where Punto could see him?
Anyway, as much as I appreciate his skills I’m glad he’s gone. Gardy would have benched Casilla or Nishioki before May to put Punto in.
"You got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there." - Yogi Berra
hold on, now, think about that for another minute...
Say you’re running the bases yourself – you leave second base with a possibility to score, 3B is straight in front of you, yes, but where is home? Around the corner, right? Keep in mind that you left with a chance to score, so where are you looking, straight ahead at 3rd, or are you preparing to round 3rd already? You could already tell a throw wasn’t going to 3rd, so you’re not looking for a sign to slide, no, you’re rounding. So when you’re rounding, where are you looking? Seriously, where are your eyes?
I guess I can’t speak for you, but it’s obvious to me that I’m looking home.
Ullger’s position make sense now? Why would the coach stand where the runner isn’t looking? The key in this situation is that the runner actually has to BE LOOKING!!!!
Watch a few games this year, you’ll see every 3B coach down the line when there’s no play at 3rd and the runner might have a chance to score. Every time.
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Jan 21, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Looking to home
even when you haven’t stepped on 3B yet? He HAS to step on third. He needs to look there to see that he doesn’t miss the bag. Ballplayers know roughly where home is. In that case it was where the catcher, the pitcher (backing up home plate) and the umpire were. In there somewhere was Ullger.
I was at over 20 games in 2011. A coach being ‘up the line’ is one thing. Ullger did not need to be where he was. I respect Punto, though have never been a huge fan of his and am glad he is gone.
In this case, though, the f***up was on Ullger, not Punto.
"You got to be careful if you don't know where you're going, because you might not get there." - Yogi Berra
Just because the turn to home is 90 degrees...
…doesn’t mean you run straight to the bag then turn. The angle you round 3rd base at determines your line of sight. Every replay I saw of the play under discussion showed Ullger in line with the front side of the runner, and the runner with his head buried in the dirt.
"...and we'll see ya tomorrow night!" - Jack Buck, Game 6, 1991 World Series
by WindyCityTwinsFan on Jan 22, 2011 3:09 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Punto was heading home and didn’t pick up Ullger until it was too late. He would have been a dead duck at home. It was just brain-dead hustle, the defining ingredient in Punto’s play.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
It's the end of an era...
Back at the Metrodome, the Punto fan club would sit in the front row of the upper deck in right field. They each held a letter for his name and would stand up and yell “PUNTO!” whenever he came up to bat. (Actually, these people are at Target Field too, but they sit in the upper deck behind me so I don’t see them, only hear).
I appreciated these people, so one day I decided to go up there and tell them how awesome I thought it was. So I get up there and I’m like, “I see you guys all the time! I sit down there! You guys are awesome!!!” What did these people do? They looked at me like I was fucking nuts! Yes—the Punto fan club thought I was crazy!
All the best, Little Nicky Punto, the grittiest of them all.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
Joe C. Tweets
“Source: Punto’s contract with STL is for 1-year, $750,000. The #Twins declined his $5 mil option, paying him a $500K buyout.”
So the Twins paid him approximately $8 million more than the open market would have. Nice.
"You're thinking too much. Just have fun." -- Bennie "The Jet" Rodriguez in Sandlot
So the Twins paid him approximately $8 million more than the open market would have. Nice.
the open market didn’t know about all his grit
by eau claire twins fan on Jan 21, 2011 7:47 PM EST up reply actions
pretty sure if we passed the plate
we at TT could have raised that much to get him back just for conversation fodder. he will be missed, in whatever capacity.
Things I'll miss most about LNP
All the grit.
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
High-fives with Jon Rauch
"It happened in the moment, and it happened." - Carlos Gomez
by myjah on Jan 21, 2011 7:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
LNP how do I remember you?
or
The Twins will save so much money on unicorn rentals that they can now go out and sign another FA
Oh sweet irony
The sad thing is it actually would have probably been a good idea to bring him back at that price… he’s a lot better than Tolbert, and it’s not like Casilla is a sure bet at SS…
"You can't sit on a lead and run a few plays into the line and just kill the clock. You've got to throw the ball over the damn plate and give the other man his chance. That's why baseball is the greatest game of them all."
~ Earl Weaver
"In God we trust. All others must provide evidence."
~ Billy Beane
upon hearing the news
gardy slid headfirst under a rock and refuses to come out until tolbert promises to undergo facial reconstructive surgery
I seem a little late but...
I totally forgot to post this (I feel tardy to the party here) but the day LNP was traded my friend’s mom’s boyfriend delivered a package to Gardy. The irony in this is that it was a few hours after Punto’s signing with the Cardinals and as he walked away he told Gardy “You really should play Punto more this season.” and Gardy slammed the door shut. I really shouldn’t laugh and yet I am/was…. But I will miss LNP’s grit and his sometimes amazing defense but I will not miss basically sacrificing a spot in our batting order and handing the other team a free out with a smile and a ribbon on top (Perhaps a little mean but I know most people are thinking the same thing).
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